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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsOne reason tanks won't PuG
by Matthew Rossi 
Apr 21st 2008 at 3:30PM
There's been a lot of talk about tank shortages, especially in pick up groups or PuG's. And at times it can be hard to understand why tanks are so reluctant to run in such groups. Luckily, Primula, a mage on Rexxar decides to help explain this all to us by starting an epic thread on the forums. Sadly, Primula's original post was deleted (by Primula), but forum poster Montar helps us understand by quoting it in his reply.Apparently Prim was upset at the guild Steady Hand (a horde guild on Rexxar) because after a heroic Magister's Terrace run they called her a ninja for rolling on and winning an epic trinket that dropped off of Priestess Delrissa (who I always call Princess for some reason). Now, you may be thinking "Hey, Timbal's is pretty good for fire mages" but let me stop you. The trinket in question wasn't Timbal's. It was, rather, Commendation of Kael'thas.
To paraphrase one of my favorite films, that sound you hear is the sound of ultimate suffering. I made that sound when the rogue outrolled me on The Sun Eater on my tenth heroic Mech. There is a tank on Rexxar who makes that sound now. Anyway, Primula decided to post on the forums about how the tank was awful, in all blues, and therefore didn't deserve the trinket and she was going to use it for PvP. And thanks to quick witted responses, and a fast tipster, I got to read the thread and lose my mind this morning. Supposedly Primula took the trinket for PvP. Well, I hope you're done PuGging, because I can't imagine a druid, paladin or warrior who'll tank for you on that realm for fear of losing some other bit of tanky goodness to your PvP set.
It's things like this that make you stop PuGging. I absolutely will not step into an instance with people I don't know anymore. When I get tells from people looking for a tank for the daily heroic, I make up an excuse unless I am guilded with or have been guilded with/have known that person. And if the rest of the group ends up being people I don't know, I'll bail at the slightest provocation. Rude to me? I'm gone. Racist? Bye. Homophobic? I left my oven on. Bad loot behavior, looting in combat, rushing pulls? I have something else I could be doing.
There are plenty of good players in the trenches trying to get through a heroic who I would be happy to tank for, if there wasn't always at least one guy who makes it an unendurable nightmare. The hunter who does less damage than the tank and freaks out once damage meters are posted. Oh yes, and it was this same hunter who demanded that they be posted. Or the fury warrior who keeps taunting mobs off of the bear tank and then wondering why he dies every pull. Let's not forget that guy. The guy who rolls on every plate drop in the instance even if it's tanking gear, even if it has +spell damage or +healing, totally ignoring the ret pally who has stated up front that he intends to respec prot and is trying to put together a tanking set. The warlock who takes an epic BoE healing cloak and equips it right there on the run.
I know you've had these experiences too, the problem for me (and a lot of other tanks I've talked with about it) is that the toxicity that these experiences engender seems to linger in the tanking mind. Perhaps it's because PuG's usually seem to expect me to lead the run, making me some sort of nanny when loot bs or other personality issues comes into play. Maybe it's just the stress of tanking and then seeing someone like Primula outroll me on a piece of tanking gear that is basically the only thing on the run I would even want. I wouldn't say that tanking is harder than DPSing, but it's stressful in a different way because, like a healer, you feel like the entire run is on your shoulders and that everyone is watching you the whole time. Compounding that issue with groups that make the experience unpleasant just isn't worth a tanks limited play time.
When I tank, I tank for people I know won't treat me poorly, and so unfortunately that leaves a lot of perfectly good players I haven't met yet looking for a tank. Yes, there are greedy tanks, bad tanks, and tanks with unpleasant personalities, but the fact is that every single class in the game can come to a run and DPS. Only three of them can come tank. Every single DPS class has more than one DPS spec, but the three tanking classes have one tanking spec and two other specs (two DPS specs for warriors, a DPS spec and a Healing spec for paladins, and even more variety for druids) and so, not every member of the three classes that can tank can tank him or herself. There are less tanks to start with, so even though you only need one, you notice when no one wants to do it. I assume it's much the same for healers, but since I don't heal as much anymore I won't make a claim.
I hope Primula enjoys that new PvP trinket, especially as one poster pointed out, when she drops below 35% health standing next to an arms warrior with a Stormherald. That 2k overpower crit is brought to you by the Commendation of Kael'thas.
Filed under: Druid, Paladin, Warrior, Analysis / Opinion
Reader Comments (Page 5 of 9)
Matthew Rossi Apr 21st 2008 5:09PM
While you're right of course (and I did mention that there are bad tanks) I still see a lot of groups with three DPS looking for a tank much more than I see groups looking for that last DPS slot.
Jack Spicer Apr 21st 2008 7:37PM
I think the biggest reason why there aren't any tanks for PuGs is because of PvP. Everyone and his brother is MS spec'ed now, so even if they wanted to run an instance, they have the sense to know that they shouldn't be the MT.
Alderkin Apr 21st 2008 4:59PM
Three simple steps for PuG tank appreciation:
/thank them
/cheer them
/mailstackofbeer them
Because nothing says "thanks" like a couple of minutes of running in a zigzaggy path on someone else's silver.
ShafeNutS Apr 21st 2008 5:12PM
@40 and 41 (How did a double poster become so wise?)
This is so true it will shock you. If you have one of those moments and you see somebody usually a dps or cc do something that you yourself do (and are proud of for that matter) and finally realize how much both the tank and the healer had to work to make it work you will become slightly depressed. You may even feel like /facepalming yourself.
But hes right Im a healer and I feel that with watching the raids so closely as far as what spells people use and who has aggro all the time I can really see how each class and role the group effects the group.
Imagine if every dps or cc you ran with was a former tank or healer. Or even better if everyone had to level a tank class before they could unlock a healer and then heal before they could unlock dps class. 70% of total Pop would leave because they know about as much about the aggro table as they do the periodic table. Its very sad but oh so true. How many times can you hear why are they running right for me?... (fill in your own I only used X spell(clearly causes a good 2500 threat)
Having said that it is clearly PvP players who have never had to learn about aggro because in a BG there isn't one. They heard about it from a friend but it is still foreign to them. Some don't even believe it exists like the lost city of Atlantis or something. I find when you hear "Why is it coming after me?" more and more I find a freshly grinded set of Welfare epics complete with crappy quest greens. If you come from PvP stay there or put in the time to get PvE gear before you come sit at our aggro table.
Silverrealm Apr 21st 2008 5:19PM
It takes a special kind of person to roll a Tank, and also a healer.
A friend of mine I met in game is a warrior, he started out fury then respeccd Prot. I have been by his side for a lot of his haul up to (presently 61)... all the way from lvl 26.
I ask him to tank for me sometimes, but I am content to run around being his healer. He asks me to heal for him too.
I think the only way he will pug now, is if I agree to be healer, at least then he knows that he is covered somewhat.
As for THIS context, I hope that mage rots in Plaguelands!
AlmtyBob Apr 21st 2008 5:20PM
A solution to a lot of these problems is just to armory your PuG members before inviting/running with them. Spend a bit of time on the various class sites and figure out what specs are built for what, what gems are good for a given role, etc. See a mage stacking spell pen, crit, and MP5 on his PVE gear? No thanks. Some +750 healing half shadow/half disc priest want to heal your heroic? No thanks.
Narica Apr 21st 2008 5:27PM
I've seen some foolishness in PuGs. Ran into a hunter the other day who wanted to roll on The Sun Eater if it dropped. Our tank didn't want it, but oh, the laughter in guild chat.
Also ran into a bear tank in Steamvaults who tried to do that there in DPS gear. Me and my priest buddy left after the second wipe.
Or a warrior who isn't even trying to hold aggro. Or who makes the rogue pull all the mobs until the priest marks him as first target and /kicks him.
Most of the tanks I run into in PuGs at this point seem to have an attitude of "I am a tank, you will take me no matter how I behave."
Though I have run into the occasional good one as well. And them, if I screw up, I'm paying for their repair bill.
Mike Apr 21st 2008 5:30PM
It looks like everyone has forgotten something fairly important.
This is, and always has been just a game.
If you're not having fun playing it, then why are you here?
Is the only reason you're going through instances to just get gear? That seems kinda sad to me, especially if the only time you have any fun is when you get something out of it.
I've also never understood people's obsession over who is 'supposed' to have what items. The overwhelming feel of entitlement is out of control. If someone can use something, why shouldn't they have a chance to get it? Are people just that greedy that they want less competition for the items (that are the only reason they play the game in the first place?)??
If I lose a roll to someone else for a shard, is anyone going to listen to me if I complain that I could use the money more than the other guy?
Everyone is playing a game; It's not life or death, and it's supposed to be fun.
I was in a guild for a while, but couldn't take the stringent schedule. Mandatory number of raids per week, draconian consumable checks, guild drama... It was just too much.
I like running instances to see what they're like. If I get some new item, then that's a nice bonus... But I wouldn't ever begrudge someone because they won a random dice roll against me.
Whining about someone "ninjaing" an item because one person could use it more effectively than someone else is just petty.
And no, before you jump to conclusions, I've never tried to get any items that I couldn't use. I've never been kicked out of a run, nor have I been accused of inciting any drama. When I announced I was leaving my former guild, many people asked me to stay, I was asked to be an officer, and three other guilds found out I was leaving and asked me to be in theirs. I just wasn't interested in watching any more of the drama.
The biggest source of the drama always seemed to center on someone whining about not getting some new toy they wanted, how their lives depended on it, it was the only reason they play the game, and death for the ninja was the only thing that could possibly make life worth living again.
/sigh
It's just a game, people... Lighten up!
Matthew Rossi Apr 21st 2008 5:42PM
"This is, and always has been just a game.
If you're not having fun playing it, then why are you here?"
If you're not properly geared, you can't do the job. If you can't get the gear you need because someone else takes it and won't even use it, then it kind of sucks the fun out of it. Knowing that another player doesn't have the common courtesy to treat you like a person makes the play less fun: you're not playing anymore, you're carrying them to the loot.
"Whining about someone "ninjaing" an item because one person could use it more effectively than someone else is just petty."
Making a forum post insulting the person who tanked for you up to the boss in question is petty. Being angry that someone took the best tanking trinket in the game to go PvP with it and didn't tell you up front so you could avoid wasting your time isn't.
Sky_Paladin Apr 22nd 2008 12:16AM
"This is, and always has been just a game."
No, it's not just a game. It is just a team game. Other people are relying on each other and trusting them to do their jobs. If you don't do your job, or abuse this trust, the team suffers. Do you play Monopoly on your own? Do you play chess on your own? Do you play soccer, or rugby, or tennis, or any of the innumerable team games on your own? In a group environment, you follow the group culture, or you quickly find yourself removed from it.
"Whining about someone "ninjaing" an item because one person could use it more effectively than someone else is just petty."
You have every right to roll on any item in an instance. With right comes responsibility. The silent trust among players is that the other people behind a keyboard are not selfish powermongering children, and are in fact responsible, sensible people.
Prim's actions earned him an item that was largely useless to him in exchange for worldwide ridicule and a swift gkick. Players don't want to associate with this kind of person. Loot ninjas are disliked and avoided for good reason. They are known to be untrustworthy, riding on the coat-tails of other honest players.
It cannot be called talent to decieve others. It will gain you personal power at the cost of friendships. These people who cry "But it's only pixels!" don't understand, or ignore, that there are real people behind these screens.
Theserene Apr 28th 2008 2:03PM
"Whining about someone "ninjaing" an item because one person could use it more effectively than someone else is just petty."
If you honestly think that the mage could have used that trinket 'better' than a tank then you have ZERO knowledge of this game or how it works.
Yes, you have the ability to ninja stuff, and I have the ability to make sure you never ever get taken to an instance with our guild or anyone we know again. So you'd play solo a LOT.
Sarah Jul 2nd 2008 4:00AM
If it's just a game, and it's just pixels, why be a dick and take an item from someone else? If you're just doing it for fun, why do you need that tanking trinket for pvp? Let the tank have it, it would clearly make them happier.
Ninjaing stuff isn't a cool or laid back approach to the game, and if they really were just in it for fun they wouldn't have done a forum post gloating about it. They were proud to have taken the trinket from a tank, because they are a total idiot.
innajunglestylee Apr 21st 2008 5:35PM
You missed the truly epic part later in the thread where the Fury Warrior who as "an officer in a guild working on Brutallus" and thus clearly full of useful info decided to explain that in PUGs all loot is up for grabs, try to argue that a mage gets a lot from dodge in Arenas, and then ultimately Godwin'ed the thread.
Zamboni Apr 21st 2008 5:37PM
I was dragged into tanking a Mana Tombs pug last week and ended up having to outroll the Priest for the melee ring from the last boss. I can deal with Priests letting me die to trash (and everyone else along with them) and can amuse myself breaking miscast sheep, but being forced to outroll people for gear they can't use is asking too much. As a bear tank, I already stopped joining groups that included any other leather users, but having to outroll cloth and plate users for gear that they're going to vendor drove me back to my PvP warlock.
Quickshiv Apr 21st 2008 5:37PM
This is why name changes shouldn't be allowed unless you change servers and even then there should be a way to find out what the person's old name was.
I can think of a new loot systems that would help fix this. A vote system that is kind of like master loot but everyone gets to decide who gets the item and then whoever has the most votes wins. If there is a tie then it's a roll off.
enkafiles Apr 21st 2008 6:09PM
Now that sounds fun. "Group Vote" as an option...
Also good for those times when you get a fellow pugger
with the opposite of a sense of entitlement.
The one you have to talk into taking any gear at all
because they feel apologetic for being undergeared?
Okay, this was a DM run, but still - the system would save time.
Anyone have reasons why this would be a bad idea?
AlmtyBob Apr 21st 2008 7:45PM
Time needed and complexity. Since we're talking PuG here, most aren't going to be on voice chat so the party has to ask who wants it in /p. Then if there's more than one person that wants it they need to either roll or debate like it's The Sun Eater primaries. Sounds like a pain in the ass.
Quickshiv Apr 21st 2008 8:19PM
No need to debate just vote. Thats why it would be fast. There is no stump speech just say "who needs it?" then vote for whoever you think needs it most. Bamb done. I guess you could get people mad enough to leave the group though.
gen Apr 22nd 2008 8:13AM
Not everyone knows what stats and items benefit other classes. Chances are you would still lose rolls that way because of others' uneducated/ poor judgement.
Mike Apr 21st 2008 5:42PM
I have to throw my 2 cents in on this. I don't mind PuGing. I don't mind wiping with a group new to an instance. However, I totally agree with other posts...Tanks, as needed as we are, are treated like utter trash. I can't count the number of times someone has given me the "plz plz plz hlps u5 (FYI, I never respond to people that speak in jibberish anymore)" only to be blamed for every wipe. I've had gear ninja'd thousands of times. It just flat out sucks. I remeber in particular I PuGed a heroic Mech in my quest to get the Sun Eater. They had it on master loot, which I thought at the time was fine. Then the sword dropped. They convo went like this:
Me: It's about &%*$ing time...mind if I need that?
Guy 1: Anyone need that?
Guy 2: I don't think so, just DE it.
Me: LOL very funny, can I get that please?
{Guy 1 recieves Void Crystal]
Me: WTF!!!!!!
{"Me" recieves Void Crystal
"Me" has been removed from the party
Whisper from Guy 1: Sorry man, forgot you were in the party...anyway have fun with that shard
I still cry alittle in side when I hear stories like this. If you want more tanks to run with, stop doing stupid crap.