15 Minutes of Fame: Inside PvP twinking
15 Minutes of Fame is our look at World of Warcraft players of all shapes and sizes – both the renowned and the relatively anonymous. Tip us off to players you'd like to hear more about at 15minutesoffame (at) wowinsider (dot) com.Despite grumbles from some players, PvP twinking – playing at max level of a particular PvP battlegrounds bracket, with the best available gear and enchants for that level – has been legitimized by Blizzard as a valid meta-game within WoW. While most players I've spoken with don't seem to have strong feelings about twinking one way or the other, neither do they seem to understand why someone would be interested in getting into it. What's the attraction?
We at 15 Minutes of Fame have an undeniable curiosity when it comes to meta-gamers and players who've carved out their own niches in the immense world that is World of Warcraft. That's how we came across Angrenous of Shadow Council, a PvP-aholic who runs warriors in almost every PvP bracket. Here's a player with his eyes wide open to all the various restrictions and limitations of WoW's PvP experience – and having a blast careening around in it.
15 Minutes of Fame: You've got your finger all over the PvP pie -- twink brackets, leading a level-70 PvP guild, you name it. Has PvP always been an attractive gaming dynamic for you?
Angrenous: Well, as soon as I discovered it (on my lowbie warrior Suul), yes. The memory of stepping onto Warsong for the first time is a really vivid one. That "calling" of the PvP path is what my guild is all about.
How long have you been playing WoW? Did you start out with a PvE focus, or have you always known you wanted to PvP here?
I started a year after the game came out. My idea of PvP before WoW was Mortal Kombat or Quake. I didn't fully grasp that there would be a seriously fun way to PvP in the game when I made my first character. I had a feeling I'd find more mature players on an RP server, so I went to Shadow Council for that reason alone. Staying on the RP server has been a real challenge, considering the way I enjoy the game the most, but I've made so many friends it's impossible to leave. It's amusing that an RP server produces some of the best twinks in the battlegroup. And, no, we don't roleplay.
A lot of gamers would scoff at the idea of PvP and WoW, saying that WoW's PvP is watered down and that FPS is where it's at for "real" PvP. What's the attraction of WoW PvP for you?I guess I got burnt out on the same kind of repetitive thing that is FPS, but I have a lot of respect for players who excel at it. It's absolutely clear that FPS games are where there is true balance, and I wouldn't argue with someone saying it takes more "ability" to be the best at those kinds of games. However, I really like the randomness, the chaos of WoW PvP. I especially love battlegrounds, for example, which presents a unique situation every time because of class, gear and skill diversity.
Let's go ahead and open the can of worms: Many players consider PvPing at max level in a lower-level bracket -- "twink" PvP -- to go against the game's intended dynamics and approaching (or even crossing the line outright) cheating. What would you say to those critics?
That's like a can of sandworms from Dune. There are a lot of twink-haters, and they are extremely, uh, vocal. I've never quite understood the confusion players seem to have that one way Blizzard intended the game to be played was for you to spend your "career" in a particular bracket. These veterans who carefully select their gear and enchants are hard to kill by someone passing through the brackets ... It seems logical. There are only a very few things that I would agree go too far. I guess Blizzard tried to level the playing field with leg armor, because it's clear it was intended for everyone, but if you don't have it at all you are at an extreme disadvantage right off the bat. Mongoose should probably be a level 70 enchant.
You can send money to alts, there are level reqs for enchantments and the best gear available are all what they are -- as intended. Besides, Blizzard acknowledges that one of the most enjoyable things about twinks is the process of making one. Drysc once said, "I think the biggest draw [to lower brackets] is that it's a unique challenge to build a character with a very specific constraint. You might find better balance or more simplistic enjoyment from limited abilities and talents. Finding the perfect item for a specific slot and figuring out how to get it while gaining the least amount of experience possible so as not to pass the level you're attempting to maintain."
The road to a "perfect" level 70 PvP character is veerrrry long and hard. You can complete your twink in a relatively short time, and it's a great feeling, like having a complete set of tier 0.1 gear.
Lay it out for us: What are the differences and specific challenges of playing in each level bracket? What makes playing at level 19 different from 29 ... 39 ... 69 or 70?
Well, level 19 is the most limited. I come from a semi-pro Magic: The Gathering background, where tournaments and casual play are based on certain restrictions. Level 19 is like working with the most basic abilities, and you learn to win within those constraints. I was around when the first twinks were emerging and we were still figuring out the best possible gear. These days, there are a zillion Night Elf Rogues named Legolaas with all the same gear and no skill.
Level 29 is similar to 19 in a lot of ways, but the gear selection is broader and there's less disparity between rogues and everyone else. Level 39 is when rogues come back to own you and the damage scales waaaay up, while the survivability doesn't quite so much. There are some key abilities that help make damage classes in particular shine -- oh, and there is the Pendulum of Doom (anyone have one for sale out there? :P).
I've heard 49 is when classes get their "win" buttons -- and of course, mounts, which certainly makes AB more tolerable. Level 59 is interesting because of all the easy-to-obtain BC greens. Level 60 is now a twink bracket, and it's actually pretty wild -- you don't have to worry about XP (if you don't have BC expansion), and you get your friends to run you through MC and so on to get mad epics.
I spent quite a while at 69 and loved every minute of it, mainly because not very many people even thought of the idea at first, so I felt really overpowered. I really encourage everyone to pause at the *9 brackets for a while, especially if you only have one main, because you'll only be that level once. Also, it introduces you to the concept of gear-based leveling, whereby you seek out specific items from quests and instances while you approach the next bracket. You don't have to be a complete twink to do well, with the 19 bracket being an exception.
What are your various PvP characters? Where do you spend the most time now?
All my twinks are warriors (Suul, 19; Assault, 29; and Conqur, 39), and my main is a rogue (Angrenous). The 39 brackets is my favorite right now, but I am enjoying the tournament realm as well.
What do you think about the recent tweaks in 2.4 to AV and WSG? What's still lacking in those battlegrounds?
The AV changes don't seem that significant. I am really confused why you can only join as a "party" and not as a raid. Our realm is known for premade AVs, actually, and they are a lot of fun! The Warsong changes are rough for some and there has been some significant backlash, mainly because games can get drawn out because of the opposite reason of turtles. Personally, I am happy. I can't tell you how good it feels to end the constant turtling the Alliance has always done. Bring your stupid prot Paladins; I'll still kill you through heals if you have the debuff!
What about the Arenas? What's working well right now, as designed, and what needs tweaking from Blizzard?
There's also a lot of interest in 70 premade battlegrounds, which I wish would be implemented on a tournament level. However, on my realm it seems that the higher-rated arena players don't play in a lot of battlegrounds, except for dailies and grinding honor. What I've learned from this is logical, which is that it takes dedicated teams who want to play a lot of games a week. The reason I succeed in battlegrounds is because I have played thousands of games (well over 100k kills lifetime). If you don't have a specific set of talented players who are dedicated to arena teams, you won't get far. Likewise, a coordinated, experienced premade in any bracket can destroy similarly-geared greener opponents.
Arena play in the twink brackets is a real blast by the way, but don't head in there at 19 unless you have the Arena Grand Master. I've been in some epic matches and also discovered some of the best talent in the battlegroup through twink arena. It's a blast to fight other Horde you have gotten to know. A lot of times, people will log onto each other's Vent servers and figure out ways to coordinate. The twink battlegroup scene is a lot more developed and personal than the 70s -- just look at the forums! It's got its fair share of drama, which is pretty funny and just adds to the kind of self-mocking chest-thumping that goes on. I mean, hell, we call ourselves twinks? If you can't laugh at yourself, you aren't playing the game. :P
One piece of advice: it's a real bitch to organize twink arena tournaments. If Blizzard set up some kind of create-your-own-invitational that permitted arena play between non-70s, I'm sure a lot of veterans would get excited about playing their twinks again.
Any other comments about lower-level PvP?
The most talented twink players from both Horde and Alliance always seem to turn out to be really cool people once I meet them in Vent. Some of the most talented players from the 70 bracket aren't (although I was correct about the RP server having more mature people). I'm not sure why that is, but there's so much negativity in the game at 70 it's a big turnoff for people like me who are known for relaxing and having a good time, actually "playing" the game and trying to make friends in the virtual world. It's incredibly fun when you have a group of the best players in the battlegroup.
At one time or another, I've had the privilege of running with pretty-much-unstoppable premades in each of the 19, 29 and 39 brackets. I wouldn't trade those memories or accomplishments for anything in the game. The time spent in Vent hamming it up, the epic two-hour battles that hinged on a single play, the rivalries ... Twinks lend themselves to "play when you wanna" and "have a good time." Pretty stress-free. I've been around the 'net since it began (yeah, I'm pretty old for a twink, at 35), so I'm really used to trolls and people who think you don't have the right to have fun how you want to. Twinking is fun for me and many others and no amount of hating can change that.
I've accomplished so much on my server and have earned a lot of respect and made many friends that will last the entire time I play the game, which is all that matters. I just wish people would lighten up -- although your readers seem to trend towards the light-hearted gamer. I absolutely loathe the term "twinks." I even tried to replace it with the word "tweaks," but that failed miserably. I don't know who is responsible, but I'd do anything to meet them in Warsong and camp their face.
Filed under: Features, Interviews, 15 Minutes of Fame






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Milktub Apr 22nd 2008 2:49PM
OK, a 4.00 speed axe? Wow. I thought my 3.90 speed sword I had in the 40s was a slow weapon.
peaglemancer Apr 22nd 2008 3:03PM
"Staying on the RP server has been a real challenge...we don't roleplay."
Reported for not speaking in ye olde English.
"That's like a can of sandworms from Dune."
Reported for heinous analogy.
Nick S Apr 22nd 2008 3:41PM
i didn't even know there were lower arena brackets.
i had a 29 twink hunter. it was fun, i suppose, but i got bored of winning WSG and AB. after a while, it just seems pointless.
i will miss kiting twink warriors in endless circles, though... you don't have to kill a good player to take him out of the game.
D Apr 22nd 2008 3:59PM
"A lot of gamers would scoff at the idea of PvP and WoW, saying that WoW's PvP is watered down and that FPS is where it's at for "real" PvP. What's the attraction of WoW PvP for you?"
Ha ha! OMG. Can we please stop it with this. Has this attitude infected the whole staff at WoW Insider?
This comment wrapped in a question seems like trolling to me.
You guys still butt-hurt that we raged against the "PVE is the real game" post?
-D
Lisa Poisso Apr 22nd 2008 4:21PM
Nope, everyone's butts are fine and dandy here. "Trolling?" Asking an interview subject for his thoughts on a commonly held viewpoint is basic journalism (and in fact, this interview was conducted before the article you mention was conceived or posted). We're glad you read both articles, though, and we'd love to hear any compelling thoughts you may have on the actual topic. Thanks for reading!
Babe Apr 22nd 2008 4:38PM
I HATE twinks for 2 reasons:
-It's impossible for a low level who is passing through to kill them, so it's NOT FUN for us to join a battleground at low levels. I'm missing a big part of the game because i can't play battlegrounds until i reach 70 with my main.
-And the games are decided only by "Twinks", so the team who gets more twinks in will win. We no-twinks usually are a dead weight for them.
I wanted to propose to blizzard that the battleground join option should "count" the power of your gear, and then put all twinks in it's own battleground, and the low-levels in other instances of battlegrounds.
That would be fun for us, and fun for twinks.
Throck Apr 22nd 2008 6:03PM
Regarding your first reason, why do you feel you need to kill to contribute?
As for your second reason, where's the dividing line between being a twink and not being a twink, and again why can't you contribute?
skythra Apr 23rd 2008 4:14AM
Also its impossible at 70 when you first hit 70 to kill someone is s3 gear. Its the exact same concept. I dont have any twinks, but i also dont care because if someone wants to only experience 1/x of the game, but wants to put in as much time to gear up as level 70's who have experienced it all, then it can only called fair that their gear is better then other similarly levelled people considering the time they put into it.
Or are you going to complain that someone at level 70 got t6 and you only have greens and you cant get into the same raids they can :P
Hoho Apr 23rd 2008 3:08AM
Well, I'm at 70 and I still get raped by pretty much every other player. In order to be competitive you need to have decent gear, level is not that important.
ShafeNutS Apr 29th 2008 4:57PM
"Or are you going to complain that someone at level 70 got t6 and you only have greens and you cant get into the same raids they can :P"
Well it would appear that you are wrong because not only is he going to do so, but you forgot to add that he will get 40 of his lazy friends (who probably have had everyhting handed to them in RL) to flame about it with him so blizz will hand them epics ahem ahem (Arena Gear for Honor) so they can kill something.
MartinC Apr 22nd 2008 4:54PM
/Agree, RP servers have the best twink PvP players. It's the same on our battlegroup too :-)
Maturity FTW
infection Apr 22nd 2008 5:18PM
I'm not sure on the limit to pre BC enchanting.
EX: A lvl 49. Can that person enchant everything that has been offered in the outlands? (300+)
It's funny to see lvl 39's and 49's with 70's enchants. It's so funny, that I rofl out of the battleground and don't come back.
Does enchants ruin bg's? Of course not.
Does enchants made for 70's that are put on characters that arent even 60 yet ruin bg's? Of course.
Totally pointless. If you character at your level can't reach that status, then you shouldn't be allowed to receive that enchant.
But if a lvl 49 can enchant everything offered in outland content.. then sure.. put it in there.
skythra Apr 23rd 2008 4:13AM
the same mats are needed no matter what level you are, so obvioiusly they already have the ability somehow to get those enchants, which means they are still spending as much time as you to get those enchants, its just going onto a lower level.
How does it ruin the game? Like s3 geared 70's will walk right over green geared 70's in pvp? That kind of ruin? yeah i didnt think you realised its EXACTLY THE SAME. There are going to be people who will walk right over you because they have put in the time to walk all over you. When you've put in the same ammount of time to be able to do the same thing, then you should be on a level playing field.
Zan Apr 22nd 2008 5:44PM
As someone else noted, I also dislike twinks because it's not fun for low levels who are passing through the bracket to play due to twinks.
I also dislike twinks because I can't be in a city without getting half a dozen, "Will u run me through sfk 4 a gold?" messages from people I don't know. And when I say, "No" they get angry at me, whine at, and sometimes even outright harass me to the point where I put them on ignore(and all the alts they log on to in order to cuss me out afterwards).
I'd like to be able to separate the twinks from the non-twinks for PVP, I think it'd be more fun.
D Apr 22nd 2008 6:05PM
"Nope, everyone's butts are fine and dandy here. "Trolling?" Asking an interview subject for his thoughts on a commonly held viewpoint is basic journalism (and in fact, this interview was conducted before the article you mention was conceived or posted)."
And Adam Holisky's PvP characters have more than 2K HKs, but those are "secret". Fine. I'll take your word for it.
I still think this question was "leading" (is that better than trolling?) as there has been no proof provided that this is a commonly held viewpoint. In fact, the comments on Adam's article (the majority of the 140 of them!) go a long way to showing it as *not* commonly held but vehemently disagreed with and wildly unpopular.
Maybe his article is still fresh in my mind because it's so recent, but this question jumped off of the screen at me as it relates to Adam's article.
I think that discussing the questions asked is just as valid as discussing the topic itself. It's done all the time in the media.
-D
Konchu Apr 22nd 2008 6:10PM
I personally wish there was some way for the game to rank players in the BG's so twinks fought together. I understand the appeal but it is not fun for players that just want to do a little PVP for a couple of items. At least now there are enchant limits. I have done a twink though in the 19 it was a Paladin that I was playing to level not stay at 19 but after going into the BG and having to deal with twink rogues I got pissed and twinked my pally I stayed 19 for a little while but I was a maxed out engineer and had some nice items and enchants after twinking I had tons of health a fire enchant on my sword and movement on my boots. I went Protection for improved blessing of freedom and I could grab the flag on a fully turtled room and make it to the entrance of my tunnel with no assistance before the other team could kill me. After feeling I had done my part to level the battle field I moved on and leveled up (I know a vicious cycle).
bradv10 Apr 22nd 2008 6:29PM
i think the term "twink" is thaught of as a bad thing because of it's roots in games where there were no level requirements on gear, and game where you could "de-level" a character. In WOW there are level requirements on gear to prevent true "twinking". The way it exists in WOW is a game within a game and not an exploit.
wyvernous Apr 22nd 2008 7:04PM
Twinking isnt too bad, all it takes to be better is a few gold.
As a staple for all my alts, i give them clefthide on some pants, and those pants last them 30 levels.
AND with just that clefthide you can be more helpful in BGs.
-However- to all those healer alts, just walk around in the back of the group in WSG/AB/AV, heal everyone, toss a Priest shield, throw Rejuvenate on some people, Pallies and Shamans disrupt and heal.
YOU CAN HELP, just use common sense in PVP and not rush into a heavily twinked Premade on your level 14 rogue alt.
:)
BigBear Apr 22nd 2008 8:56PM
I would like to pick up on one of the points that Angrenous made at the end that I think most won't understand unless they have twinked, and that is that the players and play is completely stress free.
At any level - and especially at 70 - people BG for a reason. Just log into any BG at 70 and you can see people yelling at each other to do this or do that, play like this or go to this spot or just straight out abuse each other. This is because most are there to get honour, to get gear to do....whatever. Anything that threatens their honour/hour gain should be abused.
This you will not find in twink BG's and the simple reason is that once you have twinked and played for a while, you no longer need anything. Honour becomes meaningless, rep is meaningless. All you have is a group of people signing in to fight another group of people in any way they wish.
Many people can't understand this - why play if you get no reward? This is why most twinkers are relaxed fun players, cause they are there just to have fun.
All in all its time well spent and I for one am glad I have a twink.
chuckie Apr 22nd 2008 9:51PM
While twinks are fun if you have one, (ive never made one seems a waste of time to me) its not much fun if your not one and are joining a BG for some fun.
Having played a few in the 30-39 bracket seeing players have mongoose on their weapon is just not fun. Some classes are easier if your not a twink to get by with i think but its all part of the game i guess.