I love my PvP!
by Zach Yonzon 
Apr 26th 2008 at 11:00AM
Of course, many of you took issue with his statements, even prompting him to publish his personal counterpoint on the matter. As an avid PvP player, I found some of what Adam said to be less than savory myself. It has to be noted that Adam has extensive PvE endgame experience, and his opinions come from a raider's perspective. I will concede his first two points -- you cannot progress in World of Warcraft through PvP alone and that PvP was a mere afterthought. On the other hand, Adam's other points don't quite hold as much water.
Time =/= Progress
Adam stated that "PvP progression is based on the amount of time one puts into it." This is a funny statement if you consider the fact that it takes 10 short matches for you to qualify for Arena points. It also doesn't take into account the fact that PvE progression is time-based, as well. How long does it take a guild to master Karazhan going into it for the first time? Even Nihilum, the world's most bleeding edge guild, pours considerable time into mastering encounters. Sure, they spend less time mastering anything, but that's why they're the best raiding guild in the world. But time is such a critical factor in raid progression that for the longest time, European guilds suffered from the time differential that launched US content ahead of their European counterparts.
This isn't to say that skill doesn't play a factor. Skill is crucial. But to dismiss PvP progression as a product of time rather than skill is not only short-sighted, it's insulting. He says that players "can put in thousands of hours into the PvE game and not progress past Kael'Thas if you don't have enough skill," and goes on to say that mediocre PvP players can be geared in epics simply by logging in hours and hours of PvP. This is because Adam's benchmark for progression is gear. But by the same token, you can log thousands of hours in Arenas and never hit a 2000 rating.
Do the Battlegrounds reward a substantial time investment? Certainly. But the casual environment of the Battlegrounds shouldn't be compared to endgame raiding. It's comparable to investing enough time getting Badges of Justice, crafting epics, or acquiring enough money to buy BoE world drops. Equating the Battleground grind or slow acquisition of Arena points to high end raiding is a deliberately skewed perspective.
PvE Gear =/= PvP Success
Adam goes on to brag about his success in Battlegrounds and Arenas wearing PvE gear. He explains how players in full Tier 6 can "compete and have major success." Of course, what he isn't saying is that in the Battlegrounds, you're crushing players without any Resilience. I can assure you that, given equal amounts of skill -- which Adam doesn't mention -- a Warrior in full Vengeful Gladiator's Battlegear will crush another Warrior in full Onslaught Battlegear. Every time. Because another thing that Adam conveniently leaves out of his argument is talent spec. A PvP-specced MS Warrior will demolish a dual-wielding PvE-specced Fury Warrior given equal skill. That's just the way the game is built.
You can't blog about pwning face in Battlegrounds and Arenas without mentioning equal competition. If you jump into the Battlegrounds wearing full Tier 6, of course you'll dish out some hurt. That's not rocket science. It's like entering some 5-man instance wearing full Season 3. The disturbing thing with Adam's argument is that it doesn't put skill anywhere in the equation. I used to heal for Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep in PvP gear and topped heal efficiency and curing done numerous times matched against other raiders in equal item level PvE gear. Sure, it wasn't Hyjal/BT, but I didn't, as Adam put it, "fail miserably".
He says that you cannot tank anything well in PvP gear. Well, I'll concede that. Then again, you won't be pwning face in tank gear, either, will you? Adam says that he does "so much more damage faster and in larger crit amounts then my PvP counterparts that they just can't keep up." Of course, he isn't really talking about real PvP counterparts. If you're decked out in Tier 5/6, your PvP counterpart is in Season 2/3 gear. I can assure you that those "larger crit amounts" won't be there because of Resilience. If you're going to talk about pwnage, talk about a level playing field and not crushing scrubs without Resilience.
PvE > PvP... not so sure about that
As much as Adam tries to downplay it, his condescending attitude towards PvP is palpable throughout his entire post. He says that "those PvE skills you acquire are always going to outweigh your PvP skills." That's interesting, because you can get away with mouse clicking and keyboard-turning in PvE, but it won't be as efficient in PvP. Like I mentioned in an earlier column, no PvE opponent will kite you. Ever. You will never learn to counter-kite in PvE. No PvE opponent will ever deliberately abuse Line-of-Sight to break your spells.
Exactly what PvE skill outweighs PvP skills? Threat management, maybe? When I'm healing through a 25-man raid boss, I don't have to move nearly as much as I do when I PvP. I also don't have to worry about getting interrupted nearly half as much as I do when I'm healing in Arenas. I don't need to juke a heal in order to bait a Counterspell or Earth Shock. There are no Deadly Boss Mods to tell me a Druid is about to Cyclone me. If I'm doing PvP, I'm not working on a six or ten minute enrage timer, I'm looking at a barely one minute window where my opponents can kill me or my teammate.
I'm not about to proclaim that PvP is better than PvE. I don't think Arenas, as much as I enjoy them and as much as Blizzard is infatuated with them, are the pinnacle of World of Warcraft PvP. Just like endgame instances, Arenas require you to spec a certain way or find the right class combinations in order to have an easier time towards success. On the other hand, I do believe that PvP contributes greatly to the improvement of my game. After a loss in an Arena, my team spends a considerable amount of time dissecting the match and where things went wrong. It's almost like wiping from a boss, except that most bosses have strategy guides. PvP has none. There is no single strategy guide that will tell me how my 2345 team can defeat a triple-healer double-melee comp. Even if you manage to find a solution to defeating a team, you can encounter a similar comp, use the same strategy, and still lose as opposed to Nihilum Guild leader Kungen's proclamation about the Eredar Twins where, if you use the right strategy, you can down them every time "guaranteed."
I don't agree with gear being the right barometer for PvP progression. That's simply not how I think. I look at how I learn from every game of PvP and compare myself to how I played before. That's the true barometer for me. Learning how to use racial skill reactively, such as Arcane Torrent or Berserking during critical times as opposed to simply being part of my spell cycle is something I value. It's true that you can play World of Warcraft entirely without participating in PvP, but I enjoy PvP because it completes my game. I learn skills I otherwise would never have used in PvE. I learn to think outside of a spell cycle. I learn to play reactively and instinctively, adapting to a situation that promises to keep changing as opposed to a script I need to master. So while PvE might be what some call the "real game", complementing my PvE with PvP allows me to experience a complete game. And I'm quite happy with that.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, PvP
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Tascar Apr 26th 2008 11:16AM
No offense, but in looking at the way the classes were designed, I just think it is painfully obvious that they were meant to work as a group against NPC bosses and not against each other (group or not). Not surprising that Blizzard has so much problems balancing classes between PvP and PvE.
Dunwich Apr 26th 2008 11:17AM
Well put, Zach, and I tend to agree with most of what you've said, despite being a PvE-bound carebear who will occasionally venture into BGs to provide Hordies with free Honour Kills and slog my way up to maybe one day owning Season Two..
However, I do think gear is the mark of progression throughout the entire game, in the same sense titles and rare mounts are. They're targets you aim for, and when you achieve them, you can move onto the next set. When you as a player are suddenly either faced with no targets that you can realistically achieve or even no targets at all, people to tend to lose interest. And as such, gear seems to be that common goal.
mbenitez1992 Apr 26th 2008 11:17AM
You sir are my hero.
I still feel however that you're being a bit too kind to Adam, the haughtyness, ignorance, stupidity, and condescending nature of his post is too huge to express in mere words. But I guess you (rather intelligently) took the choice not to stoop down to his level, eh?
Bastiaan Apr 26th 2008 1:08PM
This article is indeed a very well-written rebuttal. I especially liked that you said that gear is not the benchmark for progression. That idea has muddled up too many discussions already.
I'm not sure I agree with you, mbenitez1992, about the tone of Adam's article. What struck me most was that everything Adam said has already been discussed much more thoroughly and much less one-sided on various forums and blogs. It may have been his opinion, but it would have been nice if it had been a well-informed opinion :-).
In contrast, this article is logically founded, well-informed and makes good points. Keep it up!
SpaceLady Apr 26th 2008 2:23PM
amen
Matthew Rossi Apr 26th 2008 11:18AM
Without the gear, skill in either PvP or PvE is meaningless. You can be the best tank in the world or the best arms warrior in the arenas, but if you lack the proper gear you'll be a smear on the floor. It's that simple. Gear is the barometer for all beginning success in PvP or PvE.
If you healed the Lady Vashj encounter, for instance, you probably enjoyed the superior ability to move around that PvP taught you, assuming that you were a healer in PvP. Likewise, as a PvP player you learned the basics for your class through leveling up and participating in hard fights like Blackheart the Inciter in Shadow Labs and the new Priestess Delrissa fight. Blizzard has proven they can simulate an arena match pretty dang well in PvE encounters, they're hardly all 'stand in one place' anymore. Try that on Leotheras and you're dead. Rage Winterchill practically demands the PvP trinket to keep alive.
I enjoy BG's and Arenas, and I main tank for raids. I respec to PvP. It's a different game. It requires a different skillset. It's actually harder to get into Arenas than it is to get into Hyjal, in my opinion: not many arena teams want a S1 geared player at this point. But participating in each will teach you things about the other side.
Maybe you guys could hug now or something.
mbenitez1992 Apr 26th 2008 11:40AM
It maybe so that a full s3 geared player can easily beat a player of equal skill (though before TBC and resilience came along there were many exceptions, have you ever seen Vurtne the undead mage?), I'd like to think that things like arena ratings and titles are the true denominators of PvP achievement. To this point Blizzard probably just made PvP gear easily obtainable in order to create a level playing field wherein skill was a bigger factor, thus lowering their value in the eyes people who rate skill by gear.
Also, in PvP gear is more of a means to an end rather than just trophies; many people play PvP for the fun, competitive atmosphere and the glory of the win rather then the shinies. This is completely different to the PvE-mindset where, while there is admittedly a huge amount of fun from doing new content, at the end of day what keeps you through the wiping is the thought of those Professor Plums.
All this is set to change dramatically in season 4 however, so it'll be interesting to see how that works out.
Matthew Rossi Apr 26th 2008 11:55AM
mbenitez1992 -
The only purpose of those purples in PvE is to get you through the next level of content. Especially for healers and tanks, it's not like getting awesome healing/tanking gear will do you any good if you're not healing or tanking. So it's much the same: you get the gear to be able to do the next level of content, whether it be competitive 3x3 arena or Illidan.
mbenitez1992 Apr 26th 2008 12:28PM
That is admittedly a very good argument on most levels, but what then would be the point of loot from the Sunwell 25 man? I mean, it's not like you'll be using the tier 6 belt or whatever in the level 80 Naxx and there won't be any new content to get geared for till the gear reset of WoTLK. You must admit that in PvE gear is atleast part of a raider's objective.
In PvP however, you aim for the best gear in order to stay competitive and win, rendering gear less of a symbol of success and achievement rather than a way of attaining these symbols (high rating / titles). This is helped even further by the fact that everybody and their brother could easily grab pieces of s3 with welfare teams.
In the end I really think that the barometer of 'success' into any field of play is simply fun; Between some burned out player with a Gladiator rank and Illidan on farm and a noob who wallows in Karazhan and the 1300's while having the time of his life, I'm pretty sure the latter is getting more out of his $15.00 a month
Ikarus Apr 28th 2008 5:06PM
2 thumbs up for an interesting dialog!
crsh Apr 26th 2008 11:31AM
I despise the current system; battlegrounds ok, fine, it can be chaotic and mindless fun, but arenas.. yuck. Talk about an obvious display of the current shitty balance and mechanics in WoW.
Let's not mention the ubiquitous FotM classes that are allowed to face-roll their way to high ratings while others either suffer through or end up buying their ratings (which Blizzard endorses by doing nothing about it).
Since it's all about gear anyway, and gear has been made easier to get (see buying rating rant above), where's the challenge? Getting there first? Whoopydoo.
Argent Apr 26th 2008 12:00PM
1. nihilum spends a 2-6 days on a fight, masters it and farms it. the rest of us? considerably longer. spending weeks upon weeks trying to down a boss DOES NOT guarantee you will actually down that boss. whereas spending weeks upon weeks piddling around arenas will eventually result in you getting something. i'd consider this a spurious argument.
2. if you added 'unless you're doing 2v2s' to that notion, you might have a point. thing is, pve gear can give you a bit of a toehold in some aspects of pvp. if you ever want to see what utter BG frustration looks like, dig up a T6 prot paladin and lug him into AB.
thing is, if you're serious about pvp, you'll get the pvp gear you want/need. if you're serious about pve -- ditto. but just as the pvp gear is good enough to piddle around in pve a little, the vice versa holds true also.
3. the pvp game is not the pve game and trying to say one is better than the other is comparing apples to oranges imo.
the pvp game puts a strong emphasis on spatial awareness and reaction times -- both of which are very, very useful in pve. pve puts a strong emphasis on coordination and communication -- both of which are helpful in pvp.
if you seriously dedicate yourself to either pve or pvp, you ought to eventually achieve a certain amount of proficiency in either and your proficiency will help you some with the other game as well.
ultimately, i think these 'pvp vs pve' discussions are a giant waste of time when it comes to stuff like 'one is better than the other' because no one seems to ever get into why either game exists in the first place:
fun.
WoW is (at most) a hobby for most of us and shouldn't hobbies be about fun and relaxation? so some folks get their fun by grabing 1-4 of their friends and rolling through arenas or BGs. some get it by executing raid encounters. some get it by running 5 man instances. some get it by playing the AH. some get it by fishing (well, ok. maybe.)
in that regard, both the pve and pvp games serve their purpose and do their job. the problem (imo) with them both atm is that because WoW was built fromt he ground up as a pve game (you can't really deny that, imo) and had pvp cudgeled into it after the fact. this is causing a lot of growing pains, as the stream of pvp-centric tweaks and nerfs that wind up affecting pve adversely pretty much causing people in both camps to be at each others throats. it's something blizz (imo) ought to pay more attention to and figure out a way to allow both sides to co-exist more equitably.
so, which is better? both. neither. just have fun and hope that eventually blizz figures out a way to service both pve and pvp well enough.
Fraufrau Apr 26th 2008 12:47PM
I agree entirely and whole heartedly with what you have said here Argent.
Now can the blogger get back to the real issue with PvP and self-centered bullsh*t egotistic nature of anyone who achieves any serious success in Arenas and then how that is further applied to your Battelgroups reputation for competitiveness (eg: BG9 being considered THE most competitive BG). You havent seen video game elitism until you post on a server forum.
jerzz80 Apr 28th 2008 7:26AM
you must work for blizzard. way too much common sense to be one of the retards that play this game.
Felix Apr 27th 2008 12:45AM
lol @ Jerz.
Good thing the rest of us are retardedly just "playing" the game, rather than reading a blog about said game, then reading the comments, and then POSTING on said comments.
/facedesk
Svenn Apr 26th 2008 12:18PM
"The disturbing thing with Adam's argument is that it doesn't put skill anywhere in the equation."
That's because Adam has no skills, he's a keyboard turning clicker who thinks he's good because he can kill players with green gear in battlegrounds.
ShafeNutS Apr 26th 2008 12:22PM
Arena rating requirements for gear is the only thing that has even kept Arena even remotely viable as anything but welfare and thats why Blizzard is adding more requirements. They wanted to provide equal opportunity for epics to casuals, but they ended up just giving them away for next to no effort anyways (sound like another idea that was good in theory)
Making s3 the same level as Tier 6 is an outrage. These items should not be made for use outside of arena. The stamina and resilience on PvP items does not scale properly when used side by side with PvP items in a PvE environment.
Claiming how well you did in SSC and TK in PvP gear is extremely crafted to fit well into your arguement. Go with a raid of 15 PvE and 10 PVP as comprared to you in a PvE raid with one or two people wearing DPS gear. Report your findings on how well that group progresses. Everyone tailors things to fit their arguements.
PvP needs to find its place without doing it at the expense of PvE and blizzard needs to work on the WoW it has and not try to create a new one within. Release a new title you lazy asses. WoW Gladiator (You can even progress through leveling with the intention of being an arena gladiator)
mbenitez1992 Apr 26th 2008 12:31PM
Well said!
Kav Apr 26th 2008 12:35PM
"a pve player will not kite you"
right, i guess you guys just leave that spore bat hanging out when you're on vashj.
"you will never learn to counter-kite in pve"
didn't realize picking up al'ar after he meteored was as easy as strolling up to him and goosing him.
"you will never learn to abuse line of site in pve"
this one is sadly simple but, sethekk halls anyone?
you use cheap gimmicks from PVE to pvp, don't act like they're some godly strat cooked up just for pvp. yes i am a raider first and foremost, but i also have an entire character dedicated to bg and arena, and i enjoy them. as a member of a raiding guild with an open door policy on membership (not raiding however), all the easy epics has yeilded us is a ton of ppl pissy because they don't get a raid spot (but zomg i'm all epix!).
mbenitez1992 Apr 26th 2008 12:32PM
Whoops! I actually meant to reply to Argent's post further on.