Forum post of the day: Docking DKP
by Amanda Dean 
Apr 27th 2008 at 2:00PM
To function properly, all guilds must have rules for participation, gear, and general order. Since the ancient MMORPG days, many guilds have assigned Dragon Kill Points (DKP) to players for their participation in raids and events. The points are turned in for gear rewards from raids. Some guilds dock DKP for members that do not meet their standards. Aerte of Blackrock has questioned the wisdom of his guild's policy on this practice for a member that had regularly violated the rules.
The conundrum begins with the statement. "Recently we had a member quit who during the course of his rather brief stay managed to have about 130 DKP docked for various infractions. Not showing up specced properly, gems unacceptable, enchants unacceptable or non-existent, bad attitude....etc..." The original poster expressed that this may not be the best way to keep players in line.
Responses seemed to fall into two categories, neither of which support docking DKP as a disciplinary practice. Some recommended skipping DKP docking all together because there is too much discretion in enforcement. Others suggested benching raiders that fail to follow rules or dismissing them for consistent infractions. Since raids are usually carefully choreographed, it's important for everyone to carry their own weight.
Ciaree of Khazgoroth suggested that perhaps rather than using penalties, all raiders who meet the requirements of the game are given DKP for meeting each criteria. For example showing up on time, with the proper gear, and the correct spec might award players three DKP before the raid even begins. This method uses positive reinforcement rather than punishment to resolve the problem.
How does your guild handle those who are not prepared?
Filed under: Items, Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Raiding, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
JohnG228 Apr 27th 2008 2:46PM
I agree with the reward system. Less stick, more carrot. Too much stick, just pisses people off.
Sparuuto Apr 27th 2008 3:25PM
More stick. MORE STICK.
People that screw it up deserve to be pissed off, they're pissing off either 9 or 24 other people.
Treima Apr 28th 2008 1:50AM
I know what you mean, but there is a fine line between stern and downright draconian when it comes to using the stick. On top of that, if you do use the stick frequently, you have to be ruthlessly consistent with it, or you will find yourself embroiled in guild drama faster than you can say "/gkick".
Abhinav Kumar Apr 27th 2008 3:00PM
How do we handle people who are not prepared for the raid? Kick them. There are always more fish in the sea for "THIS IS BLACKROCK!"
Majeere Apr 27th 2008 6:59PM
Thats completely stupid. Look I haven't done the endgame raids but screw any guild that tells me I dont have the right gems....I mean, are you serious? Well hell if you want me to have all this certain stuff then the guild should pay for their members to have the gear and specs that they deem they must. If not, then you have no right to tell someone how to play.
Pucelle Apr 27th 2008 9:23PM
Majeere has never raided a day in their life, and I'd wager they've never played any kind of competitive sport or excelled in any group effort, where success depends on every person doing the best they can in order to meet a goal.
Treima Apr 28th 2008 1:47AM
@Majeere
I laugh at the naivete, or perhaps just plain stupidity, of your comment. If all raiders had this sense of BS entitlement, no guild would last long enough to down anything resembling a raid boss.
Cynra Apr 28th 2008 7:13AM
Correct, Majeere, they have no right to tell someone how to play. But those raiders then have no right to tell the raid leaders to tell them.
In order to be successful, you need to be dressed for success. That means having gear appropriate to what you're attempting to do and having it enchanted and gemed properly. If you don't, that's one person who is going to be less effective than he can be. And these are the days of the old 40-man raids when 25 people could effectively carry fifteen other people to the loot; between the weird spike damage, rage timers, and various other factors, it's much less feasible to take people into a raid who aren't going to pull their weight and even prepare to be successful.
I doubt anyone is advocate docking a priest who comes in all Bonus Healing gems or even a lot of Intellect gems. That's a variation of playstyle (and one that I probably wouldn't agree with, though I could maybe understand the reasoning). However, if I saw a priest come into a raid with Defense gems or Attack Power gems I'd have to question if he's ready or suitable for the raid.
Cynra Apr 28th 2008 7:14AM
Well, I buggered up again! Blame it on the early morning.
"Correct, Majeere, they have no right to tell someone how to play. But those raiders then have no right to tell the raid leaders to TAKE them."
Corrected!
Abhinav Kumar Apr 28th 2008 12:42PM
I didn't mean to make such a hot topic here but i still stand by my comment. If the person is not spec'd or geared properly for their class, we can just find someone else who cares enough to do it right.
blackangely2k Apr 27th 2008 3:04PM
How abotu don't run DKP at all? Just don't invite the idiots that show up PvP-specced with no consumables to the next raid. By playing games with DKP all you do is create a "black box" which generates drama when people question why so-and-so got docked and the other guy didn't. Nothign control rai behavior better than controlling who gets in and who doesn't...and you don't need DKP at all for that.
Tariff Apr 27th 2008 3:15PM
The guild I'm in doesn't dock DKP. In return, we simply make it rank > DKP.
Raiders > Members > Alts/Family&Friends > Guests
People who can't meet the raider requirements are just members, and are 2nd on the loot food chain; they can't win even if they have more DKP than a raider, no matter what. Raider is an earned rank in our guild, and earning it = your best bet at getting gear.
It's simple, easy, and it works perfectly with zero-sum, open-bid (and I'd assume other systems too) DKP.
rick gregory Apr 28th 2008 1:13AM
Yeah, docking is too easy to misuse. Just set standards - blue level gems in all epics, defined enchants for each slot/class (there are sometimes 2 enchants you can use, but not an infinite amount). People who don't meet these don't go to the raid. If someone gets upgrades give them some time to do this (you might need a day or so to grind up some gold, find someone to cut a gem, etc), but if they consistently come late, in poor gear, with wrong enchants, empty sockets... sit them. Tell them if they don't correct things, they're out.
It's all about setting clear expectations and then holding people to them.
Cynra Apr 28th 2008 7:32AM
The problem with rewarding people with DKP is that you gradually start that step towards inflation, which is an admittedly inherent problem in DKP.
I'm of two minds on the matter. One, as someone who is always ready on time, prepared, at the summoning stone when invites go out, and who researches the fights ahead of time and engages in a lot of theorycrafting, I do get a bit upset when people are late, don't come specced for raiding, obviously bought crappy gems to get crappy socket bonuses, and didn't come prepared at all. This is compounded by the fact that I know that some of these people are competant players but they're just being exceedingly slothful. Sometimes I just want to say that we should stick it to the bastards or find people who will value their slots in the raid more.
On the other hand, I see the power of positive reinforcement. And I do believe in helping people to be better players -- for their benefits and the raid's. However, it's hard to provide unsolicited advice. Just look at this thread: how many people denounced raiding because the article mentioned docking people for not having the appropriate gems equipped? In WoW there's this huge feeling of entitlement, as if by having paid their fifteen bucks a month they should have the right to do anything they want. However, believing that and living by that creed means that they're probably ill-suited to raiding anyways; raiding is a team effort, that requires each individual to be knowledgeable, prepared, and somewhat dedicated to get positive results.
And, really, what better reinforcement can you get than downing a boss for that first time and handing out the loot?
Breezer Apr 27th 2008 3:36PM
There's a general acceptance in the FFXI community that Japanese people are far superior gamers than the NAs and EUs. This stereotype faded over time (even though it's mostly true and JPs are gaming freaks), but I always remembered what a bilingual JP said to our PUG exp party one day after everyone in the group tore him to shreds for not understanding a more advanced function of his class.
After everyone had belittled the hell out of him (I'm sure it made them feel good to call a JP a noob). He didn't get defensive, he just said, "How do I do it. Teach me." So we did. Our party was better off for it.
Later he explained that that was the difference between Japanese and Americans. If a JP doesn't understand something, his party tries to help him and make him a better player. If an American doesn't understand him, it's a race to see who can point out his flaws and put him down fastest and harshest.
So, maybe the guy who gets punished for not being born a WoW expert isn't motivated to become more knowledgeable or a better player when he's treated with no respect. He is, after all, spending his own time to help his guild.
Maybe instead of, "OMFG stregth gems?! u fkn hunterd nub! 100 DKP minus noob LOL!" Guilds should try, "Hey, you're figuring out gemming, cool! But strength gems don't really do anything for hunters. Try to get your hands on suchnsuch gem and you'll be topping the meters every time :D"
Rob Apr 28th 2008 2:02AM
Really excellent point here. Especially on the official forums, its far easier (and too common) to tear the poster to shreds over spec/gear than to answer their question ie, what spec should i run, etc. Its not that people are not willing to learn, rather that far too few bother to teach. Which is why people like BRK and BBB are revered, they try to teach how to play the class. How many bloggers are like them? Very few. (I blog, but don't teach, i don't consider myself expert enough - but I will answer questions on the official forum).
Cynra Apr 28th 2008 7:22AM
Not to be contrarian, Rob, but BRK got embroiled in his own issue concerning helping people recently. I vaguely remember that he snagged someone's blog post without permission when she posted for some help on how to deal with unsolicited advice. And rather than deal with that issue, BRK examined her spec and then berrated her for how she was choosing to level. It errupted into its own little discussion in his comments -- and I don't think he ever addressed his conduct or the fact that he took her post from another community without permission.
I'm a long-time fan of BRK, but I did feel that he was a little uncouth for having done that. It's his blog and he is absolutely free to post what he wants, but it did cause me to stop and think for a moment.
Joonces Apr 28th 2008 9:57AM
@Cyrna: Actually, BRK did apologize to that poster and she wound up guest blogging on his site.
mcsaeki Apr 28th 2008 12:49PM
This is how I wish the game were played more often. More GURPS, less CounterStrike. Good points all 'round. Thank you for being a human being.
Mats Apr 27th 2008 3:43PM
More stick.
DKP is not about getting 1 person to behave/feel rewarded, it's to avoid 24 other people to get pissed off.