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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsForum post of the day: Docking DKP
by Amanda Dean 
Apr 27th 2008 at 2:00PM
To function properly, all guilds must have rules for participation, gear, and general order. Since the ancient MMORPG days, many guilds have assigned Dragon Kill Points (DKP) to players for their participation in raids and events. The points are turned in for gear rewards from raids. Some guilds dock DKP for members that do not meet their standards. Aerte of Blackrock has questioned the wisdom of his guild's policy on this practice for a member that had regularly violated the rules.
The conundrum begins with the statement. "Recently we had a member quit who during the course of his rather brief stay managed to have about 130 DKP docked for various infractions. Not showing up specced properly, gems unacceptable, enchants unacceptable or non-existent, bad attitude....etc..." The original poster expressed that this may not be the best way to keep players in line.
Responses seemed to fall into two categories, neither of which support docking DKP as a disciplinary practice. Some recommended skipping DKP docking all together because there is too much discretion in enforcement. Others suggested benching raiders that fail to follow rules or dismissing them for consistent infractions. Since raids are usually carefully choreographed, it's important for everyone to carry their own weight.
Ciaree of Khazgoroth suggested that perhaps rather than using penalties, all raiders who meet the requirements of the game are given DKP for meeting each criteria. For example showing up on time, with the proper gear, and the correct spec might award players three DKP before the raid even begins. This method uses positive reinforcement rather than punishment to resolve the problem.
How does your guild handle those who are not prepared?
Filed under: Items, Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Raiding, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Naix Apr 28th 2008 11:08AM
DKP is so eq. If you show up and preform you have the right to roll. I have quit guilds just over them starting to use DKP.
Mats Apr 28th 2008 11:19AM
You sound like the kind of guy we use DKP to avoid.
eikonklast Apr 27th 2008 3:58PM
Gotta love the thinking of the "I'm special" generation. "Let's all be positive, hold hands and sing happily evermore.. la la la".
Why shouldn't sucktards be docked when they just cost everyone expensive consumables.
Pay up beeches or don't screw up.
dancinglion Apr 27th 2008 4:33PM
Raiding in 25 mans is more of the "Professional" level of the game. Study up on the fights, know what is expected of you, and most of all, be the best you can be in the raid. If you are a mage with +agi gems, then you obviously don't know your class well enough to be raiding, as you are not pulling your weight.
Erika Apr 27th 2008 7:35PM
On that same token though, What if I prefer +hit over +ap. And poster 15 has the same idea i do. DKP is only used to let leaders stroke their e-peens on how much of a ass they can be.
Erika Apr 27th 2008 7:36PM
Poster Majeere since when i quoted it moved it down.
Zali Apr 27th 2008 5:00PM
Every DKP system is a pain in my book. Show me a guild that uses one and I'll show you a guild that I won't join.
If it's an upgrade, roll Need. If it isn't, don't roll. If there are idiot ninja's in the raid, go with a master looter and have him invite people to roll. Done. No complicated suckup loot system.
Pucelle Apr 27th 2008 9:28PM
Yeah, you'd think there'd be less drama with a loot system like that. You'd be dead wrong.
Not a week ago, I got my ass flamed by my class leader for speaking up about a huge upgrade in gear [Kara epic to SSC epic], which the raid leader awarded to me since *no one else spoke up* - seems that my UI had trashed me out of the private class channel, and the other player of my class had wanted it and asked me not to roll for it in that channel. [But he didn't whisper me, or speak up in /guild or /raid or anything else.]
I haven't raided for a week because it's too fucking annoying to log on and get pointedly ignored because I... followed the loot rules that were in effect for the entire raid, and had been in effect since I joined the guild.
There's loot drama no matter how you do it. People are jerks.
Zali Apr 28th 2008 9:48AM
Percelle,
In your case, the drama was caused by someone not saying that they wanted to roll. They have nobody to blame but themselves. DKP systems though are all about rewarding or punishing people based on some arbitrary set of rules. It turns raiding into a job.
If your guildy couldn't take the time to speak up to the raid leader or roll on the piece then they can toss a hissy all they want, it is still their fault. The drama is all them.
zappo Apr 28th 2008 10:27AM
"If it's an upgrade, roll Need. If it isn't, don't roll. "
That's part of the problem, because "need" is a subjective concept. Is that sword a better upgrade for a hunter as a stat stick, or as a rogue who has something almost as good? Tough call. This system also begets drama. DKP is a system where all of that is basically abstracted into neutrality by people having a sort of participation currency. Both systems have their merits, but typically DKP is a necessity in larger guilds where there is always a new person who needs something more than you, and there are some core players who always attend and should be awarded for doing so.
shabaz Apr 27th 2008 5:47PM
I have been looking for a guild for sometime now that are not a bunch of jerks. I finally found a raiding guild who will explain things to you, not yell at you, and punish you. And becuase they explain these things on my first run through gruuls which went just fine i promptly went out and did a few missions and get new gems and repec. so i know what is going on the next run and i can help out that much more. It benifits the guild so much more to be helpful and not a bunch of jerks.
Jewbanks Apr 28th 2008 6:20AM
My raiding guild is really calm and fair.. we use something like a zero sum system. The only exception to this is our main-tank. He,our main-tank, constantly is making threats of booting people for not pulling their weight, but ends up staying up working with them. We started really late but our moving quickly. Starting in kara 4-5 weeks ago weve downed 4 in ssc 2 in tk and rage winterchill in hyjal. The one complaint is even when we 2 or 3 shot a progression kill we hear a lot of our main-tank screaming "fucking retards".
donoteatmikezila Apr 27th 2008 6:31PM
I hate raiding guilds so much.
Majeere Apr 27th 2008 7:01PM
I think that DKP is a corrupt system that shouldn't be used at all. If I am pulling my weight in the raid then I should have the same chance on drops as the next guy. Just because he has been in the guild longer shouldn't come into play. The gear of the players, who is determined to need it more, and if that can't be determined a good old fashioned /roll should commence. DKP sucks.
Calaana Apr 27th 2008 7:00PM
I enjoy reading comments that show people have no understanding of a dkp system. It's there so it's fair to the people that have been in that raid for the last month, paid for the wipes and loose the item. Think about how you would feel if that happened to you.
If you can say "oh well, things happens. It'll come again", you will never fit in a progression guild and thus can not understand it in the slightest. That boss will likely be dropped off in a couple of weeks for new content.
Of course, this just makes raiders sound like jerks which makes me laugh even more. :)
Pucelle Apr 27th 2008 9:29PM
This comment is full of win and understanding.
Verit Apr 28th 2008 4:18AM
Some servers must have a lot of raiders. On my server it feels like 9/10ths of everyone got their account on ebay - so I feel privaledged when we can get enough people to go to 25 mans.
Anyhow this one guild I was in - started charging money for summons, coming without potions etc. What happened was two fold. Essential raiders (tanks/healers) would hold up the whole raid while we waited for them to fly to the raid on their own. And b) people stopped coming at all.
I think its a better approach to guide people into the correct behavior. Maybe award people with DKP, coach them on skills, spec and rotation.
Aigarius Apr 28th 2008 4:24AM
People like that should expect to be replaced in the raid group as soon as their infraction is discovered (PVP spec, full pvp gear, no consumables on progressions fights, no enchants or gems or inappropriate enchants/gems, no reagents) or after a set time limit if they are late to the raid.
Bunkai Apr 28th 2008 9:58AM
"Not showing up specced properly, gems unacceptable, enchants unacceptable or non-existent"
IMO, any guild that feels the need to force their players into a specific role needs to step back and realize that this is a game... not a profession!
In addition to that, if a player plays their spec well, then they are a viable asset to the raid as long as the leadership doesn't have their head too far up their ass to be able to put that player in the role that they are filling (i.e. don't put an enhance shammy in a healing role, put them in a DPS slot; don't put a shadow priest in a healing role, put them in a DPS slot.
If a raid leader really knows what the hell they are doing, then they won't have to require the cookie-cutter builds for their raid to perfectly execute the strat that they read online. Instead they are capable of building the raid based on ROLE of each player and expect that if a player has chosen a non-cookie-cutter spec, that they be able to perform well in the role that they are filling.
I can't stand all the asshats that THINK they are elite raiders, when all they can do is follow the step-by-step instructions that true leaders have left behind for them.
If you can manage to get over yourself long enough to succeed in thinking objectively on your own, THEN the need to dock DKP won't be a problem in the first place.
If it's a behavioral issue... just replace them in the raid... then they don't accrue any DKP to dock in the first place. DKP is only worth it if you don't let it become a burden to manage.
Guapa Apr 28th 2008 10:42AM
Sorry, wall-of-text but forgot the main topic: We don't do any docking of DKP as it would destabilize the zero-sum-system. Instead, coming late for a raid costs 1 flask to the raid bank, not appearing at all costs 3 flasks and so on. This works out fine, people feel a bit of pain but not too much to get upset and the raid profits from the additional flasks available.