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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsBreakfast Topic: Scam or service?
by Robin Torres 
Apr 30th 2008 at 8:00AM
A couple months ago, Daniel Whitcomb wrote a great post about maximizing your bag space which included how to get a 20 slot bag from Budd Nedreck (pictured above). In it he explained exactly where to go in a cleared Zul'Aman to complete Budd's Promises, Promises quest.
Zzmorriss wrote in to say that he was offering in the Trade Channel to run people through his guild's cleared ZA instance in order to complete that quest. He charged 10 gold to join the raid and be guided to the place to get the item for Budd. He then charged another 10 gold a person to run them through again to do Budd's follow up quest. He made a total of 180 gold for 15 minutes of work and then ran through 6 or 7 more groups before the reset.
Zzmorriss wrote in to say that he was offering in the Trade Channel to run people through his guild's cleared ZA instance in order to complete that quest. He charged 10 gold to join the raid and be guided to the place to get the item for Budd. He then charged another 10 gold a person to run them through again to do Budd's follow up quest. He made a total of 180 gold for 15 minutes of work and then ran through 6 or 7 more groups before the reset.
Zzmorriss calls this an exploit and thinks that Blizzard will stop this at some point to prevent someone making so much money off of these guided tours of an empty instance. I disagree. I think that Zzmorriss is actually performing a service for casual players -- and a cheap one at that. There are many, many World of Warcraft players who are unable to participate in content like ZA. Zzmorriss is allowing these people to see a zone and obtain a really great item for only 10 gold and for another 10 gold, they can make their money back on the follow up quest.
Of course, friends and guildies will offer this service to you for free. And even strangers might do the same to help the underprivileged player without charging a fee. Also, if you have access to a ZA instance that is cleared past the first boss, you can find all the information from Daniel's post. But I think access is the real key here and not all players are on friendly terms with guilds who clear Zul'Aman regularly.
Now you know my thoughts. I want to hear yours. Do you think charging for access to a cleared ZA is taking advantage of people? Or do you think it is providing a service?
Filed under: Items, Analysis / Opinion, Breakfast Topics, Instances, Making money
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 4)
Makros Apr 30th 2008 3:26PM
On another note, thanks for helping me kill time at work! I just wish Balius had come back :(
Boom Apr 30th 2008 3:42PM
Makros,
No one on Argent Dawn will argue with me when I say I've pretty much held the dang server together with /Boomhug™s. They have a power much greater than the power that naturally emanates from my enormous ego.
I appreciate you reply.
And to your credit, it technically could be read as a scam against Blizzard, but I think that's quite a stretch, even for an intellectual giant such as yourself. :)
I'd love to argue with you more, but I've read your other posts, and after emoting your distaste for "regurgitated posts" from Mike Schramm, I can't help but call you hero.
Boom
cdb2000 Apr 30th 2008 3:54PM
@ Makros
How on earth do you justify posting a definition and then purposely ignoring half of it? A scam is not simply "something that makes a quick profit." The operative word in the definition is "fraudulent." People can make quick profits off of all sorts of completely legal enterprises. Since the player/guide in question is offering and actually providing his service, "scam" has no bearing upon his actions. Therefore, it has no business being mentioned in the article.
Makros Apr 30th 2008 4:11PM
Its fun to argue with someone that can string together complete sentences and cohesive thoughts! (I know that may come off as sarcastic, but it really isn't intended that way. If you read a lot of the comments here and wow forum posts you will know what I mean)
Lastly (as I'm leaving work soon), I would like to apologize for the snide tone in my first response. I stand by my argument, but you sir have proven to be a worthy opponent undeserving of such underhanded remarks ;)
Dave Apr 30th 2008 10:29AM
This is not an exploit. It will not be fixed, changed or altered in any way at all whatsoever in the future, I guarantee this.
This sort of thing is not new at ALL. Anyone who can remember preBC days of being a top level Alchemist with Flasks to make had to frequently troll for people clearing Scholomance in order to get access the easier Alchemy Lab. Usually you had to pay someone in the group a few gold to let them waste a few mins letting you zone in and run to Ras's room once they'd cleared it. Yes, you could have just grabbed 4 friends and run it yourself but that's an hour and a half of effort, as opposed to 5g for the guy willing to stick around after a run is over and let you into a cleared instance.
That was never fixed, so similarly the ZA quest won't get fixed and neither will the ability to zone into a cleared Kara and finish half the quests in there without actually clearing the excess trash.
If you want exploits, go look into the Sunwell Trash farming exploit using mages and portals. That's definitely an exploit and will probably get fixed.
Mognet T Apr 30th 2008 10:34AM
20 gold? I wipe my nose with 20g! Since I PVP with my main and do not have access to ZA, I would have paid for this service without second thought.
Annilektra Apr 30th 2008 10:43AM
Well First off...You DO NOT have to kill first boss to get the quest item, just have to kill up to the first boss. When a person offers a service in exchange for money, how is that a scam or disservice or anything like that? How is it different the any other commerce in the world?(RL or warcraft) Well its not. I think that as long as people are getting what they paid for then nothing is wrong with it. Now it would be a scam if he was taking their money and not taking them into ZA but He is so no harm done.
Ircasha Apr 30th 2008 10:58AM
It's a creative use of in game mechanics that benefits both parties involved. Since he's only charging a nominal fee (which you mostly earn back), I fail to see anything but a win/win situation here.
To all those QQing about how people should work for this reward, etc.: it's a bag for God's sake. If he was able to get people through a quest that rewarded someone with the Absolute Sword of Leetness you might have something to complain about.
SimpleSurvival Apr 30th 2008 11:14AM
definitely not a scam... but it does seem sorta sketchy...
The only real concern I'd have would be the rest of his guild's opinion on what he did.
It was the guild's work that cleared the instance. An individual member of the guild shouldn't be taking profit from the works of his guildies without giving something (read most) back to them.
If they were cool with it, then I don't see any problem... He received gold for services rendered. The players who gave him the money got exactly what they paid for.
In the end... its all relative. Consider that quite a few players feel it is more than appropriate to charge another player 10g just to click a button. I would frown on his works if he just handed people the raid ID and told em to go for it. I would consider the fee to be more for the guided tour.
SimpleSurvival Apr 30th 2008 11:18AM
looking back on it... reading a few more comments...
"Zzmorriss calls this an exploit"
The problem with it all being relative is that its based on your own opinion of whats going on...
Sundae Apr 30th 2008 11:14AM
These sorts of ideas always make me feel a bit creatively inferior - like all the stuff Swifty and Vurtne pull out of the PvP game - I wish I'd thought of that.
Markymark Apr 30th 2008 1:11PM
It's no scam... People are getting a item that they desire and hes charging a minimal fee for his time and work. I really hope elitists get off their high horse seriously... if you were raiding you'd get the bag anyway for free so whats the big deal really?
What unfair advantage does this pose? Oh no everyone has a 20 slot bag now that means their more "Leet"... come on now.
Rob Apr 30th 2008 12:56PM
Not a scam, a bargain, and thanks to him for doing so. Blizz wants us to progress, they want us to have 20 slot bags. Its like the trash mobs in 25mans dropping tier appropriate purples (we had 4 drop from trash last night), and random patterns that occasionally let you make BOE stuff. Blizz wants people that can run the instance, go back and make the stuff and make it available to the guild (first) and the general populace second. The whole point of end-game is progression, its not "oh only let the people who can get to BT get BT loot", that's not it at all. Without this sort of mechanism, plus badges, plus extra tier tokens, progression would be (and was) slower.
You could argue that 20 slot bags doesn't do much for progression, and I agree, but it's in keeping with the spirit of end-game. I would be surprised if this was fixed, but after the boar nerf, nothing surprises me anymore.
Zali Apr 30th 2008 12:59PM
I've done this myself. From both sides actually. When I realized there was a 20 slot bag sitting there for free I went and found the first person with a saved ZA instance and had them invite me to group and go in with me. They didn't charge me though. Then again, it was someone that I have run ZA with before. I had just never done the redneck quest before. Since then I have run people in for the bag a few times, although I haven't charged since they were friends. Maybe I'll start spamming trade channel with offers next time I run ZA.
As to the question of if it is an exploit or not, I'd have to say it is obviously not.
Blizzard has precedent in how dungeon and raid quest rewards are given. If they want you to be involved in a kill the quest giver will say, "Bring me the head of Willy the Mail Boy." (If you know that reference then you're a bigger geek than me.) Anyway, that is the mechanic that Blizzard uses if they want you to kill a particular mob. Obviously in this case that was not their intent.
I think Blizzard actually likes it when people find unique ways to stimulate the economy. I have a hard time believing that when this quest was written up, someone in the group didn't point out that this would be possible.
Theserene Apr 30th 2008 3:02PM
It's a service, just like the guilds that accept money to get people their Bear Mount.
Makros Apr 30th 2008 3:17PM
First. I would guess that Robin used the word scam for one of two reasons: the most likely in my opinion is the allure of the simple alliteration of "scam or service," or maybe Zzmorriss himself used the word "scam" when he "wrote in" (since we don't actually had what he said).
Second. Thanks for the Boomhug!
Third. While I agree with what you are saying in pointing out what an arrogant prick I am, I stand by my argument that using an exploit for monetary gain is by definition a scam.
Balius May 1st 2008 4:10AM
The part yo're missing when defining scam is the word fraudulent. Fraudulent means categorized by a fraud, which isn't helpful, but fraud is:
intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right
Which this certainly never does. There's no pervasion of the truth at all, intentional or otherwise.
ErsatzPotato Apr 30th 2008 5:05PM
There's no possible way to claim this is a scam. It's not even a borderline case. Smart though. I'd only done it free for guildies.
hpavc Apr 30th 2008 5:40PM
Good service, his instance ID rock on.
denigrate Apr 30th 2008 8:40PM
In the real world, you'd call this guy an "entrepreneur".
If you're selling something, and people are willing to buy, what's the problem? Nobody is being scammed - the customer knows what they are paying for and it is their decision alone whether or not to pay for it. As long as they get it in the end, how can this possibly be a problem?