Forum post of the day: Purchasing raid epics (poll)
by Amanda Dean 
May 7th 2008 at 3:00PM
Back in March, Mike Schramm reported on a player who paid 20,000 gold to ensure that she would receive the Amani War Bear from the Zul'Aman raid instance. It is not entirely uncommon for players to run their guildmates' alts though low level dungeons for fun or profit or purchasing raid runs or arena points. Any of these may be considered cheating by some players, some more obviously than others. Angona of Hellscream (obviously an alt) had the opportunity to purchase
Her guild leader disapproves of this transaction. Angona quoted him as stating "Only lazy noobs buy gear, that's not what this guild is about. If you want to buy gear, then I suggest you just /gquit right now." This attitude suggests that players should earn their gear, even if a gear upgrade would be good for the guild's raiding efforts overall.
I can appreciate both sides of this argument. I have never turned down an instance run, and rarely say no to a friend who needs one (especial Wailing Caverns, I love WC). In one respect the ability to purchase these rewards is earning it, in the sense that the player earned the gold to buy them, but that is not the way they were intended to be awarded. I also respect the guild leader's appeal to a moral high ground. We've gone round and round about "Welfare Epics," I think in this case that title applies?
The thread has several pages of discussion and a few analogies of varying degrees of relevance. I thought we should put it to a poll:
| Wait and earn the gear myself | |
|---|---|
| Discuss the subject at length with the officers | |
| Get the gear anyway | |
| /gquit |
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Instances, Raiding, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 6)
dan May 7th 2008 3:07PM
I don't think it should be considered cheating by any means. If I had saved up 20k gold, I should be able to spend it any way I want to, and if it is to get some guild to run me through ZA or BT, then who is someone else to tell me otherwise.
xtrout May 7th 2008 4:12PM
Your guild leader/officers are the ones to tell you otherwise. It reflects poorly on the guild and yourself as a player. Even if you do see it. You should probably \gquit and start up your own guild if you think that is fair. That way you can build something up with like minded people. No harm no foul.
Some people have self discipline and a sense of fair play, others do not. You have to ask yourself which type are you.
Harmun May 7th 2008 4:19PM
Supply, demand, and the TOS are the only rules we need to follow. Anyone who thinks otherwise and limits their behavior to follow additional personal rules may be acting nobly, but certainly are not adding anything to their game except a sense of personal achievement.
Honestly, if blizz's changes devalue the work you put into your achievements, you can't expect other players to pretend the changes weren't made, unless you're willing to force them into it.
Supply and demand works for guilds as much as they do epics- a guild leader can make any demand he wants, so long as he's willing to accept that people might disobey and either quit or be kicked. People can choose to disobey commands from their GM as long as they understand they will have to find another guild, which may not be the easiest thing to do.
slimj091 May 7th 2008 5:32PM
"Your guild leader/officers are the ones to tell you otherwise."
excuse me, but my guild leader/officer's do not pay for my account. hence they have no say in what i do with my accounts resources.
that kind of "we rule you!" attitude is one of the biggest problems with WoW. GM's and guild officers thinking that they have dominion over your life because of a stupid in game guild title that doesnt mean squat for anything.
with all of the articles in the guildwatch section about guilds being clueless as to why players leave their guild in droves. this right here is one of the main reasons. too many people think that they are a monarch with absolute authority to do and say whatever they want to their guild members.
darian May 7th 2008 6:03PM
They don't have dominion over your life, but they do have dominion over their guild. It's their job to have a vision for the guild, which can not possibly be 100% compatible with every last member. While dictators will certainly shove people out, you'll find that even more democratic leaders will stand firm on points they see as core to the guild's ideology.
Even if you find the perfect guild, no guild is static. Time changes all things, and at some point you'll either have to compromise or deal with what comes from standing firm. It's not a bad thing to have some principles you won't compromise on, but it is bad if you blindly blame the other person for reacting appropriately.
Jessierockeron May 8th 2008 4:47AM
I completely agree with you, 'sides if I were a guild leader I would want my fellow guildies to get geared up one way or another.
Station May 7th 2008 3:07PM
Here is my thinking. If your guild isn't running the instance, then you aren't saved with a guild run. If it isn't a guild run, and you still make your required runs, what does it matter what you do with your free time? If the other guild is OK with it, and you are fitting it in, then what business is it of the GL? Would be be pissed if you bought crafted epics also? Is that not allowed?
darian May 7th 2008 3:52PM
It depends, there's a fair amount of pride involved in raiding, and going outside the bounds of your guild can send bad messages everywhere.
Raiding with other guilds can easily send the message that your guild is weak, falling apart, inadequate or attempting to piggy back off of other guilds, particularly if this is content your guild hasn't seen. It also sends a message to your guild that you are bored, unwilling to wait, or generally superior. These perceptions are probably far from the truth, but perception is important.
My guild doesn't have a problem with people raiding with guilds that are similarly progressed or perhaps a bit behind us. So long as they make their reasons clear to us and to whomever they're raiding with (usually simply a matter of helping friends outside the guild, or because they didn't make our raids that week) we're generally fine with it.
Pzychotix May 7th 2008 8:25PM
That makes absolutely no sense. Buying epics doesn't mean that you're giving your guild the finger to go raid with someone else's guild. If anything, it's paying to help your guild progress. Personal progression is guild progression, assuming that you're still raiding with your guild regularly.
Dakira May 8th 2008 7:40AM
@Pzychotix
Your right... but only up to the point that the person running with other guilds leaves the original guild because they out gear there fellow guildies and are bored with "helping" them run the content they are currently on.
In our guild your free to run whatever instance/raid with whomever and in the past we've had people become geared both on guild raids and while raiding with others and then leave the guild. Its an uncomfortable feeling when someone says they are unavailable for a guild run to find them logged on and running with another guild... but it happens and ultimately I hope that people are in the guild for a social reason rather than loot, gear and personal progression.
Pzychotix May 8th 2008 2:58PM
You make it seem like it's a given that if you buy raid epics, you'll move on to other guilds.
That's a very big assumption to make.
ErsatzPotato May 7th 2008 3:13PM
Could we get "Laugh at him" added to the voting list?
BariusWOW May 7th 2008 3:13PM
Um.. Shouldn't there be a link to the forum post you are referring to in your article?
klink-o May 7th 2008 3:19PM
Click the often forgotten "Read" link.
Justin May 7th 2008 3:13PM
They earned the G to pay for the run - so what's the problem? You can raid for hours and hours to earn raid gear, or farm G with the method of your choice for hours and hours to buy raid gear.
They're both fine.
Zakk May 7th 2008 3:14PM
Both sides are valid, IMO. As a player, you should be able to play how you want, so long as you don't screw with other people's game. As a GL, though, you need to think about the guild's rep. If it really is looked down upon to buy instance runs -- whether rightfully or not -- you should probably put a stop to members buying them. And it really is the GL's guild, so he/she can have whatever rules they want in their guild.
Azhural May 7th 2008 3:15PM
As long as he's attending to the regular guild runs and they're not going to run BT in that week, why not use the ID and get some nice gear? The GM doesn't have the right to tell you to not run ZA or BT if the guild isn't anywhere close to that content.
darian May 7th 2008 3:57PM
Technically they do. It's their guild, and they establish the rules. If one of them is "We don't allow members to raid in more advanced content with other guilds", then they have a right to tell you to stop.
Now, of course, you have the right to tell them to stuff it, but the probable consequence would be a swift /gkick. If you think that's unfair, you're probably in the wrong guild.
TheGraceberry May 7th 2008 3:17PM
I agree with dan, as long as you're still fufilling your own guild's raiding requirements, I don't see a horrible problem with this. One person in BT gear isn't going to make or break a raid, but it certainly helps and frees up some loot for others to take.
All of this assuming of course that the person is buying the gear without the intention to split off and apply elsewhere.
Pingmeister May 7th 2008 3:16PM
While I agree with his sentiment I think its personal opinion and certainly understand that others won't agree.
I can't imagine asking others to adhere to his (and my) crazy game ideals.