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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsForum post of the day: Purchasing raid epics (poll)
by Amanda Dean 
May 7th 2008 at 3:00PM
Back in March, Mike Schramm reported on a player who paid 20,000 gold to ensure that she would receive the Amani War Bear from the Zul'Aman raid instance. It is not entirely uncommon for players to run their guildmates' alts though low level dungeons for fun or profit or purchasing raid runs or arena points. Any of these may be considered cheating by some players, some more obviously than others. Angona of Hellscream (obviously an alt) had the opportunity to purchase
Her guild leader disapproves of this transaction. Angona quoted him as stating "Only lazy noobs buy gear, that's not what this guild is about. If you want to buy gear, then I suggest you just /gquit right now." This attitude suggests that players should earn their gear, even if a gear upgrade would be good for the guild's raiding efforts overall.
I can appreciate both sides of this argument. I have never turned down an instance run, and rarely say no to a friend who needs one (especial Wailing Caverns, I love WC). In one respect the ability to purchase these rewards is earning it, in the sense that the player earned the gold to buy them, but that is not the way they were intended to be awarded. I also respect the guild leader's appeal to a moral high ground. We've gone round and round about "Welfare Epics," I think in this case that title applies?
The thread has several pages of discussion and a few analogies of varying degrees of relevance. I thought we should put it to a poll:
| Wait and earn the gear myself | |
|---|---|
| Discuss the subject at length with the officers | |
| Get the gear anyway | |
| /gquit |
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Instances, Raiding, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 4 of 6)
darian May 7th 2008 4:47PM
Technically they do have a right, as it's their guild. That doesn't mean it's smart to exercise that right, but it's one they have.
Conversely, you have the right to play the game how you want, so long as you're aware of the consequences of doing so.
I think they were pretty stupid, personally. They probably just wanted to keep power consolidated.
MechChef May 7th 2008 4:44PM
If the GL is going to tell me I can't buy gear upgrades, then he better give me a sworn declaration that I get highest priority on ANY loot that drops. Otherwise, he can go F-himself. I buy what I want.
Flanker May 7th 2008 4:48PM
So long as the gold is earned, and not bought, I'm fine with this. It's their money. They worked to get it (presumably). They can use it however they want. 20,000g for a mount is just looney though.
Dammerung May 7th 2008 5:06PM
I would be frustrated with my guild leader if he said this(not that I think mine would ever say that).
I would go ahead and get the gear and would attempt to stay in the guild, if he wishes to excercise his right to /gkick me then that is his choice.
But the opinion that only 'lazy newbs' buy gear is an opinion...and one that seems ignorant. To me buying gear makes sense... you want better gear, someone is offering to help you get it, you pay them tada!
It is the same as crafted gear.
Dammerung May 7th 2008 5:10PM
I didn't mean to reply just to Flanker. My comment is on the post in general.
Flanker May 7th 2008 7:43PM
/1 Yey!
SimpleSurvival May 7th 2008 5:13PM
The comparison between 5 man instances and raid instances seems pretty silly. The effort required to run a lowbie thru any pre-bc instance is trivial compared to the effort it took to even step foot in BT and not die instantly. Most players are capable of a safe solo run of WC by 30-40.
I can appreciate where the GL is coming from, he wants the group to progress together and earn their victory through their own actions.
I can appriciate where the player is coming from... they want their phat loot and they don't percieve any real value in the "Team Effort".
A progress oriented player will want to progress... An achievement oriented player will want to achieve.
If the GL would feel robbed of his achievement due to the inclusion of gear that the guild didn't get themselves, Its prolly better that the guildie leave and not be selfish to the players who want that. If the guild sides with the player, then the GL needs to reconsider his guild, and maybe look for more like minded players if that is what his ultimate goal is
Michael May 7th 2008 5:33PM
That guild is way too prudish. If I had 20k to spend on a piece that I really needed, I'd do it.
Since I'm the gleader of my guild, I don't think I have much of an issue with people finding issue with what I buy.
tomrigid May 7th 2008 5:50PM
I don't like the idea of buying tier gear ahead of guild progression, but it hasn't come up for me so that's a luxury position. I probably wouldn't do it, because I like the extra happy feeling I get from knowing that I earned my gear, somehow. Yeah, yeah, extra limits on my game, self-imposed, but it's my monthly $.
My old raid alliance on Stormreaver had a rule: any gear obtained in raids outside the regular alliance schedule would be subtracted from your DKP. Simple. I think I liked that rule.
witchdrash May 7th 2008 5:56PM
Guild progression is still guild progression regardless of equipment, what people are failing to realise here is it's not that Y guild can take down X boss and therefore have Z item, the item is irrelevant, it's a load of guilds waving around their e-peen in the form of equipment, buying equipment doesn't make a guild good, it's just gear, sure it helps but if they all suck they're still going to wipe.
Equipment != progression. Killing bosses and clearing raids = progression. Equipment is the tasty stuff you pick up while you play, how you pick it up, as long as it's not against the TOS is no one elses business.
witchdrash May 7th 2008 5:49PM
Guild run their rules.
Other run = whatever the hell you want to do.
If Guild Officers have a stick up their ass about how you obtained X item, assuming you didn't break the TOS, they fail at life.
Germ May 7th 2008 5:55PM
First of all I can't bring myself to cast a choice on that poll.
On to the debate!
If you plan to buy all your gear from end game guilds then why join a raiding guild to begin with? Go join a social guild and buy all the gear you want.
If you're in a raiding guild and plan to buy gear that isn't on par with your guilds current progression then please by all means leave that guild. You might think you're helping but you're not helping anyone but yourself. The goal of a raiding guild is to progress through content and get gear as it becomes available to you. If your raid attendance is high then you'll have earned plenty of DKP to buy the upgrades you want. If I was a guild leader I'd ask for you to leave my guild if all you want to do is buy your gear and not earn it like everyone else who's putting in their time and effort into the guilds progression or I'd waitlist you on all our raids.
Crafted epics are completely different, you go and collect all the mats to make said epic.
Any instances that are not progression based is fair game if you want to pay a 70 to run you who cares.
Any epic on the AH is fair game, there's no comparison to paying an end game guild to get you something you "desperately need".
"two cents dropped"
Pzychotix May 7th 2008 9:03PM
He's buying gear so that he can actually help out his guild.
The goal of a raiding guild isn't to gimp your players down to your level so you can feel better about your boss kills. If that was the point, everyone in your guild should be playing with blindfolds and hands tied behind your back, all so you can feel better when you down Attumen.
The point of a progression guild is to PROGRESS. If I get the chance to gear myself out with lvl 999 epics, you better be damn sure that I'm going to take em, because that's going to make my guild progression THAT much easier.
Your point also makes no sense, because he's buying the gear for the guild. He's not buying the gear and then sitting on the sidelines. He's doing it so he can help the guild that much more.
If you or his GM can't see that, their guild deserves to stay in SSC/TK.
Germ May 8th 2008 3:42AM
Pzychotix...
No I don't think so. So what you're saying is let this guy go buy all his t-6 from and end game guild so he can help his guild progress through SSC and TK? Well with him being all geared up why should he take a spot in the raid when someone in the guild could get upgrades from SSC and TK? He won't need anything from these raids any more he has gone and geared himself ahead of everyone else.
You're right though the reason you join a progression guild is to PROGRESS...with your guild, not with some other guild. You go into SSC and TK and gear up farm those instances till everyone of your core raiders is geared enough to move on or "progress". You help by being prepared flasked up, fully enchanted, gemed up, food buffed and ready to raid having read all strats and whatever else you need to do for that night of progression.
All the gear I've gotten I've earned it by being prepared to raid 4 nights a week. I've farmed SSC, TK and am geared in t-6 and now me and the guild I'm about to join are going through the process of progressing through Sunwell. I was patient I learned all the fights and got my gear while me and the rest of my guild progressed through content.
blah whatever I just don't agree with it, you get your gear with your guild, if not then why did you join that guild?
Gryphon Hall May 8th 2008 4:43AM
Germ is right. Being a good raider isn't all about gear. I know people who get the gear from somewhere else, thinking they are all leet just because he jumps to the top of the DPS meter, but has no feel with working with the group, pulls aggro from the tank each time and, worse, says "Well, this doesn't happen to me at all in . All of you are noobs."
It's not so much trying to help the guild but rather trying to show off to the poor saps still clad from Attumen drops. The only difference is that they earned those drops from Attumen, but if you paid for BT gear I will ALWAYS doubt your skill.
If some people are too impatient to actually progress with their own guild and would rather bribe their way into better gear, then yes /gquit. People are not losers just because they want to take their time at progression while somebody else is prepared to grind for all that gold just to be clad in T6.
Scratch that... anybody too impatient too wait and progress with their guild would be too impatient to grind—they bought their gold from gold farmers.
Pzychotix May 8th 2008 3:18PM
"No I don't think so. So what you're saying is let this guy go buy all his t-6 from and end game guild so he can help his guild progress through SSC and TK? Well with him being all geared up why should he take a spot in the raid when someone in the guild could get upgrades from SSC and TK? He won't need anything from these raids any more he has gone and geared himself ahead of everyone else."
Because, if you're doing progression, you're not actually getting gear? Unless you're some uber guild that one-shots everything on progression nights, progression means sitting there, probably for several hours/nights/weeks working on the boss, with no assurance of a boss kill. The REASON to bring him is because he's the best healer/dps/tank in your entire guild, and to sideline him because of that is pure stupidity.
If for some reason my guild recruited a guy with gear from KJ, you better be damn sure that he's going into the raid, because he's giving us valuable insight to all our progression fights.
"You're right though the reason you join a progression guild is to PROGRESS...with your guild, not with some other guild. You go into SSC and TK and gear up farm those instances till everyone of your core raiders is geared enough to move on or "progress". You help by being prepared flasked up, fully enchanted, gemed up, food buffed and ready to raid having read all strats and whatever else you need to do for that night of progression."
There are a million reasons why you could want to join a progression guild or still BE in your progression guild. Only one of them has to deal with actually progressing.
"All the gear I've gotten I've earned it by being prepared to raid 4 nights a week. I've farmed SSC, TK and am geared in t-6 and now me and the guild I'm about to join are going through the process of progressing through Sunwell. I was patient I learned all the fights and got my gear while me and the rest of my guild progressed through content."
So because you waited for your gear instead of speeding up to the front of the line, that makes you better? That makes absolutely no sense. You're completely ignoring the fact that these players are still raiding with the guild, doing everything they can for them.
"blah whatever I just don't agree with it, you get your gear with your guild, if not then why did you join that guild?"
Well the original person was a co-founder of the guild. He's not about to leave it and sever all social ties to it. You're looking at this in a box, where the only thing that ties people to guilds is gear. That's just ignorance.
Zeplar May 7th 2008 6:17PM
Your guild can tell you how to spend money (within reason), but it cannot tell you how NOT to spend. If you can afford it, get it.
Andre May 7th 2008 6:57PM
"Only noobs buy gear" he says... I think that a big part of the game is managing the economy and earning money (for some people) and that this requires no less skill (probably more, since not everybody can do it and everybody CAN grind away) than "earning" it. If somebody can excel through purchasing all his or her gear, then that's fine. She's just that good at money making. Don't be bitter about it.
Kadaan May 7th 2008 6:47PM
I'm much like the guild leader in the article, although I'm only an officer. Here's some of our very important morally-sound rules:
Badge gear is forbidden. We don't want noobs who run Karazhan every week to save up badges to get 100+dps weapons that are better than T5 and some T6 weapons. Rogues have to prove they can DPS with a spiteblade, then Morogrim's sword. Letting them get their hands on the dual-fist badge weapons makes them lesser players.
PvP is forbidden. The PvP gear is also better than most/many of the T4/T5 and a few T6 pieces. We don't want our members mindlessly grinding honor to get PvE gear.
Basically, we don't want our members to better themselves on their own time. We want them to have to learn the encounters in gear appropriate for our content level. We enjoy gimping ourselves and driving away any potential raiders that strive to be the best they can be for the good of the guild.
SaintStryfe May 7th 2008 8:13PM
And remember, there's only ONE WAY TO PLAY THE GAME.
Your guild is gonna fall on it's sorry face sooner rather then later.
/if my GL's hadn't decided to chance a guy in blues and a few greens, and helped PVP me to a Gladiator's set, I wouldn't be raiding as I am now.