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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsForum post of the day: Purchasing raid epics (poll)
by Amanda Dean 
May 7th 2008 at 3:00PM
Back in March, Mike Schramm reported on a player who paid 20,000 gold to ensure that she would receive the Amani War Bear from the Zul'Aman raid instance. It is not entirely uncommon for players to run their guildmates' alts though low level dungeons for fun or profit or purchasing raid runs or arena points. Any of these may be considered cheating by some players, some more obviously than others. Angona of Hellscream (obviously an alt) had the opportunity to purchase
Her guild leader disapproves of this transaction. Angona quoted him as stating "Only lazy noobs buy gear, that's not what this guild is about. If you want to buy gear, then I suggest you just /gquit right now." This attitude suggests that players should earn their gear, even if a gear upgrade would be good for the guild's raiding efforts overall.
I can appreciate both sides of this argument. I have never turned down an instance run, and rarely say no to a friend who needs one (especial Wailing Caverns, I love WC). In one respect the ability to purchase these rewards is earning it, in the sense that the player earned the gold to buy them, but that is not the way they were intended to be awarded. I also respect the guild leader's appeal to a moral high ground. We've gone round and round about "Welfare Epics," I think in this case that title applies?
The thread has several pages of discussion and a few analogies of varying degrees of relevance. I thought we should put it to a poll:
| Wait and earn the gear myself | |
|---|---|
| Discuss the subject at length with the officers | |
| Get the gear anyway | |
| /gquit |
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Instances, Raiding, Forums
Reader Comments (Page 6 of 6)
Dutchamerica May 9th 2008 2:31PM
If the player wanted a certain piece of armor from the instance, where was the guild and why didn't they help that player get it for free?
There are certain pieces I would like to have but none of my guildies are interested in running those dungeons. If I had the gold and wanted the piece bad enough? Heck, I'd probably pay for a run.
First and foremost, I am the one paying for my game. There are too many 'mafia bosses' ooops guild gm's that think their way is the only way to play the game.
It's sad. If my guild harrassed me with their attitudes, I'd quit.
borgy78 May 8th 2008 9:49AM
i play a game to have fun not be battered by moral code. So IMO screw not being allowed to buy stuff, if i have the cash and i want it im gonna buy it.
I dont see why i should be policed in game and told what to do. so for my vote goes to /gquit.
Meyl May 8th 2008 11:09AM
This is a great deal - for the guild selling the spots.
Option A: The person buying the spot stinks. At least you got the gold, and maybe a good laugh at "teh noob".
Option B: The person buying the spot is pretty good, if a little undergeared. Invite him/her to join your guild.
Win-win for the selling guild.
I have seen a higher-progressed guild on my server give out raid spots to people in guilds 1-2 steps below them on the progression ladder, whenever they had a spot to fill in their lineup. Whether they actually intended to poach people I cannot say, but those people tended to join them soon after.
So, from the perspective of a guild officer, I am very wary that anyone who goes on runs with a higher-progressed guild would not be around long enough for their shiny new gear to help the guild.
My guild doesn't have a written policy prohibiting this, but we'd be very concerned that someone who wants to run with a higher-progressed guild is, or soon will be, guild-shopping.
maxthehazy May 8th 2008 11:47AM
lets not forget the golden rule... if she was able to earn that much gold, she can spend it anyway she pleases. as one poster said, my GL doesnt pay for my account, so he doesnt have any say on what i do with the resources in that account. and most certainly, if my guild leader were to try to tell me where i could and could not go in game, id give her the finger.... love ya top.
that guild leader sounds really mature, 'wahhh! your epics are more shiny than mine, i dont want you in my guild anymore'.
theres generally only 2 reasons someone raids at higher progression than his guild...
1. a friend from a higher progressed guild got them an invite, or
2. his guild has been sitting at the same progression lvl for far too long and this is the only way they currently forsee being able to progress. (often, this is as much about seeing new content as it is about new gear)
this gl should be thinking about how he can progress his guild and how his members generous waste of gold on outdated gear (sunwell) that will be replaced in a few months by an expansion will help in progressing his guild.
Pzychotix May 8th 2008 3:26PM
--"Germ is right. Being a good raider isn't all about gear. I know people who get the gear from somewhere else, thinking they are all leet just because he jumps to the top of the DPS meter, but has no feel with working with the group, pulls aggro from the tank each time and, worse, says "Well, this doesn't happen to me at all in . All of you are noobs.""
But gear certainly makes a difference. Thinking otherwise is delusional.
"It's not so much trying to help the guild but rather trying to show off to the poor saps still clad from Attumen drops. The only difference is that they earned those drops from Attumen, but if you paid for BT gear I will ALWAYS doubt your skill."
The guy is the co-founder of the guild. He's proven himself to the guild well enough. Whether you think his skill is lacking or not is inconsequential. Buying epic gear doesn't drop his skill level from great to crappy.
"If some people are too impatient to actually progress with their own guild and would rather bribe their way into better gear, then yes /gquit. People are not losers just because they want to take their time at progression while somebody else is prepared to grind for all that gold just to be clad in T6."
For the last time, just because he's getting better gear doesn't mean he's going to stop raiding with the guild.
"Scratch that... anybody too impatient too wait and progress with their guild would be too impatient to grind—they bought their gold from gold farmers."
Or he was smart and chose a profession where literally everyone throws themselves at your feet to give you gold (JC). Or even, he did dailies. You get a couple thousand gold every week just by doing dailies.
Germ May 8th 2008 4:40PM
I gotta ask you a question real quick, where is your guild right now in progression?
Now..."But gear certainly makes a difference. Thinking otherwise is delusional."
No one said gear doesn't make a difference, of course gear makes a difference or else there would be no point to even join a progression guild. People raid and collect badges to upgrade their gear so they can keep progressing, that's the point of raiding.
"Unless you're some uber guild that one-shots everything on progression nights, progression means sitting there, probably for several hours/nights/weeks working on the boss, with no assurance of a boss kill."
It's called farm status, I've progressed through all SSC, TK, Hyjal and BT and guess what I did sit their and wiped millions of times along with all my guild mates that's what progression is all about! Now we do one shot all bosses but it took some learning and gearing from boss drops. If there's no assurance of a boss kill then why even try? Is that what you're saying? Dude the concept of a guild is a group of people setting goals and accomplishing those goals together while helping each other out.
"There are a million reasons why you could want to join a progression guild or still BE in your progression guild. Only one of them has to deal with actually progressing."
There aren't millions of reasons, only one reason and that's to progress.
"So because you waited for your gear instead of speeding up to the front of the line, that makes you better? That makes absolutely no sense. You're completely ignoring the fact that these players are still raiding with the guild, doing everything they can for them."
I'm sorry but I never said I was better then anyone else or did I even imply this in any way. I didn't wait either that's why I'm in a progression guild so I can get the gear now and not wait for guilds to clear all the end game content and then go buy a spot in the raid and have my hand held through BT and Hyjal so I can get geared without putting in the work.
If you feel like you need to do this then you lack the dedication to be in a progression guild or you just like an easy ride. *shrug*
Gryphon Hall May 9th 2008 2:17PM
Gear does make a difference. If your gear is too powerful and your team mates are not as epic'd out, all you'll do is pull aggro. I'm quite sure with T6 gear you can tank and defeat all mobs in Ramparts while your team yawns, looks on and get all the XP and drops you don't care for anymore... but really, is that helping them learn their game?
Gear does make a difference, and it is a wise gamer that will downgrade the gear to fit the instance instead of "insisting" that the others also progress as swiftly as she had done ("make more gold, you nubs, so you can purchase BT epics too!") to keep up.
And anybody smart enough to make gold without buying it off a gold farm will be smart enough to know that T5 and T6 gear is not the answer to all the guild's problems with progression.
Gryphon Hall May 9th 2008 1:49PM
I am still surprised by the number of negative reactions to what Angona's Guild Leader said about buying gear. What I see here is that her Guild Leader offered her the honorable way out, basically "If you don't want to progress with us, fine. Leave the guild, join that guild that requires you to pay gold for what we could have done for free if you just wait another month (seeing as we already ARE in SSC, TK and Mt. Hyjal). You want the gear badly NOW, but for what? This guild is about earning the gear, but if you are happier in a guild where you have to buy it with 20k gold, then it's better you leave."
The main problem here is the exchange of gold. I have no problems with a raiding guild lending a helping hand to another guild that hasn't progressed as much by opening slots in their raid; what I have problems with (and yes, I know you can do anything in this game because you pay for your own account... but I pay for my account, too, therefore I can have as much problem with it as I want) is when you have to PAY gold to an already progressed guild when your progressing guild would probably benefit more from that gold rather than one member being geared ahead of their mates. One who buys his gear does no favors to the guild they choose not to progress with; only favors one toon—themselves.
Vidi May 9th 2008 7:52PM
Gryphon,
You have made some good points here but I have to go back to a point made by someone other than either of us.
What is the difference between paying for a Deadmines run or paying for a BT run?
Answer: The price.
Personally, if I had the gold and a willing guild Id pay to be run through BT. I wouldn't think twice about it either. And if my guild master took issue with it, and suggested I /gquit, then I would...without anger or hurt feelings. I would simply know that any guild that would have a problem with my progression would not be a place I could call home.
Gryphon Hall May 10th 2008 11:09PM
And my sentiments are still the same and the rules still apply.
Anybody who would pay to be run through deadmines to get the drops is too lazy and impatient to wait one or two more levels to be able to get it. Such a person, who would waste 1 or 2 gold on a Deadmines run does not have business acumen. And any person who is going to take advantage of noobs by making them pay 1 gold each for a Deadmines run is an opportunistic sod.
It is dodgy when the exchange rate is a few pieces of gold for a Deadmines run, it is even dodgier when the gold exchange reaches into the hundreds and thousands.
But of course, as in real life, one is welcome to pay for such services and until Blizzard says it's bad, it will continue. I am under no delusions.
Of course, in real life, people can buy votes, people can purchase assassinations, students somewhere in the world pay teachers to give them passing marks even if they can't read, and people also buy things and positions they don't deserve. The ability to purchase doesn't make things right, only immensely possible.
Hoki May 14th 2008 3:45PM
The GL has no right to dictate what a guildy does unless it is breaking common etiquette or blizzards TOS.
If the guildy has bought the gold to pay for the run, fine. Kick them.
If the guildy worked hard and gathered 20k in gold, and choose to spend it on a run to get a particular drop, good for them.
Many people will run the same instance over and over for specific drops, how is this any different?
It is the fundamental problem with guilds in WoW. The ego of the founders and internal politics can rip a guild apart. At the end of the day it is a game. People do it for fun.