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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsHas Growl been changed or not?
by Mike Schramm 
May 7th 2008 at 8:00PM
Ever since it was reported that in 2.4.2, threat generated by Growl would no longer scale with pet attack power, Hunters have been trying to figure out what that means. Will it only scale with Hunter attack power? Is there any way to get Growl's threat up? Just what is the relationship between the threat generated by Growl and the stats listed on both Hunter and pet? The Mystic Hunter has been working to try and figure things out, but the stats he's found have actually been more confusing than clarifying -- he did a series of tests on the Live server and then on the Test server... and found them to be the same.Say wha? Mystic found that threat is clearly scaling with Pet AP, and not with Ranged AP (he shot RAP way high using the Core of Ar'kelos and a few other gear pieces, and had no noticeable affect on threat generated by Growl).
So not so fast on that Growl change -- if it is going to be implemented in 2.4.2, it hasn't been put out there yet (which, considering that the 2.4.2 testing is supposed to be almost over, makes us think it won't happen this patch at all). Of course, if the fix doesn't come out, then the original problem is still there. These Growl issues are turning out to be a huge headache for both Hunters and Blizzard.
Filed under: Hunter, Patches, Analysis / Opinion, Buffs
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Manatank May 8th 2008 1:33PM
Did it ever occur to any of you that the "nerf" was an unintentional side effect of the change to the combat log? The reason they aren't "fixing" it is probably because it would take a bunch of work and was an unintended boar ability in the first place. They probably heard about this effect and said, "wow, that sucks, but fixing it would take WAY too much work."
I highly, highly doubt any actual effort was put into "nerfing" boars because their ability to hold agro has no balance issues in raiding or arenas.
That said, as a player with a level 70 hunter... Who cares about growl? My pet lost the ability to hold agro against me a long time ago. I have two options:
1. Let my pet build up some initial agro, and then finish the mob off (takes about 30 seconds).
2. Just let loose and kill the mob as fast as possible, which is usually before it can even run to me (takes about 5 seconds).
As a DPSer I always pick choice 2 while soloing (I'll be damned if I have to wait as long to kill something as I do on my resto shaman or prot paladin). If something actually gets to me I have feign death, concussive shot, wing clip, traps, and as a BM hunter I have my pet's intimidate.
This is all a non-issue for me as I've never had a boar, and could care less about growl. I'm not trying to say that there aren't SOME hunters who care about this, but all of these posts lately seem to indicate that a LOT of hunters care. We don't.
toledosuperman May 7th 2008 11:46PM
I'm sad to admit I liked the first few episodes of naruto, at least through the chuunin exams
Kaljin May 8th 2008 12:25AM
Off topic post is off topic.
Vidi May 7th 2008 10:47PM
I don't understand this. Hortus ( a blue reported ) :
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There was not a change to the way Growl scales with hunter AP, the bug fix eliminated growl scaling with the pet's attack power. Growl has always scaled with hunter attack power in exactly the same way as it does in 2.4.2, there were no changes. I have verified multiple times that growl threat does scale with hunter AP AND that it is doing so in the same way in 2.4.1 and 2.4.2. I'm sorry if you were given the impression that this was a new feature.
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So if it scaled with Hunter AP prior to 2.4 and will again scale with hunter AP, then won't that take it back to the way Hunters liked it in the first place and therefore make hunters...dare I say it...happy?
Slayblaze May 7th 2008 11:48PM
All I know is that Growl no longer holds aggro anywhere near what it used to. Whatever the reason, there *IS* something wrong with it. It just needs to be rolled back to how it previously worked instead of seeing some future change on non0change to how it works now.
Just roll it back - please.
Will Tafe May 8th 2008 12:27AM
eh, nerf growl imo, every other class 1-70 has a shitton of a time leveling because, they, do, no, have, a, pet. Least locks dont get a good one till 50. A hunter can have their pet tank a mob and just sit back and chain heal / dps.
rogues have to dodge
priests/mages have to bubble /kite
warriors have to hope their armor lets them survive.
shamans have to DPS the mob down before it does them
Pallies are OP, no need for explanation
TBH I always thought of a hunter's pet helping ALONGSIDE the hunter. not viably tanking said mob. sure, its a dps increase, but it's not your own little mini tank.
btw. FD more if you complain about growl.
Kaljin May 8th 2008 2:00AM
@Will Tafe
Its obvious you haven't played a hunter at 70. You have "facts" which are quite wrong, and your post is dripping with contempt.
agentaero May 8th 2008 1:05AM
oh come on, that is how the hunter class is designed, so the pet is a mini tank, we have to be away from something to do our best DPS, hunters are designed to be very good at solo pve, just like some classes work well in raids, and some work well in pvp, thats like saying well I never thought fear was a nessicary mechanic for locks, other classes cant do it like they can, why give it to them
Treima May 8th 2008 1:39AM
@Kaljin
That post brought to us by the Department of Redundancy Department?
schweet09 May 8th 2008 4:55PM
akamaru!!! yes!!!
jrb May 8th 2008 5:05AM
maina's arcania has one generally accepted way of testing growl threat.
http://www.maniasarcania.com/2008/04/30/growl-testing-method/
Brommon May 8th 2008 7:57AM
Ah, thank you. This is the kind of transparency I was hoping to get as a response to my previous comment. :) Much thanks to Mania for explaining her testing methods. With that post as context, re-reading The Mystic Hunter's posts makes it clear that he is using a similar method for testing.
And indeed, Mania's tests agree completely with The Mystic Hunter, so this question is clearly very much still an issue.
PJ May 8th 2008 8:09AM
Only a headache for hunters, blizzard doesn't give a damn.
sthig May 8th 2008 9:03AM
I don't have any numbers but all I know is that recently my pet couldn't hold aggro to save it's life! I don't know what happened but I wish they'd change it.
Kyudo May 8th 2008 9:12AM
In my PvP spec (0/48/13) and gear, I can't get my pet to hold aggro /ever/.
The best I can do is just Auto Shot and hope I don't crit.
/petattack
/cast Hunter's Mark
/startattack
Anything else, and they'll attempt to chew on my face, and then the kiting begins--I really don't like pseudo-arena matches every time I grind some dailies.
I honestly wish Kill Command would also generate threat equal to or greater than the critical strike of the Hunter. That would save me a lot of headaches. And if they're worried that threat generation in raiding would be a problem via Kill Command, they could simply make the threat generation only function if Growl is set to auto-cast, or simply have Kill Command remove the cooldown on Growl.
Dreams, I know...
M May 8th 2008 10:47AM
My hunter has no problems keeping aggro on the pet. There is a skill you need to learn called "working with a tank". Pets are tanks, so you need to learn to work with a tank, just like if you were in an instance.
You let the tank generate threat, and gain aggro. If you have skills that help (ie: Misdirection), use them. Ramp up your DPS slowly at first, and then unload when tank has good solid aggro.
Your macro is bad. Don't start hunter attacking, and put a Growl in there as well. Let the pet take a few hits before starting your attack.
Maybe you'll lose 2-3 seconds of hunter attack time. But that makes up for having to kite or feign because you steal aggro from the pet/tank. In an instance, that could mean a wipe in especially tricky situations.
Topping the DPS meter doesn't make you a god. Working with your team (including pet) to accomplish the goal makes ALL of you gods.
Kyudo May 8th 2008 1:42PM
I don't use that macro. It was just an example of what happens sequentially when I grind, given a pause between the mark and me attacking after the pet has initiated the first few hits to establish aggro.
My issue is when I crit, it won't matter how much aggro the pet has built up--it's going after me. I can only Auto Shot while grinding. Using anything else will most definitely draw the mob to me before I kill it, and doing this repeatedly for an hour while grinding dailies is not pleasant.
And yes, I'm well aware of how to work with a tank. But when I'm doing dailies constantly, it's nothing short of a pain to grind low rate drops for almost an hour doing nothing but Auto Shot and maybe Steady.
I had much less problem holding aggro with cheapo gear and BM spec.
And I reeeeally don't need your help on telling me how to play. But thanks for putting in exceptional effort for no reason other than assuming I don't know how to play the game.
Beaverius May 8th 2008 9:14AM
I've been following this on Mania's Arcania for sometime and it is good seeing it here. The big change came in 2.4 when the boar's charge ability no longer caused a large amount of instant aggro. For me as a BM hunter, it did around 3500 instant threat every 20 seconds when charge was used. In other words, it was very hard to pull aggro off the mob before it died every 20 seconds. The downside however was that it was only once every 20 seconds, and it doesn't take nearly that long to kill a mob. I found that it basically meant every other mob while farming, it was guarenteed that I would not pull aggro.
It was the only pet with which I could farm and quest and not end up having to kite or melee the mob from pulling aggro even with a lower dps and more mana efficient rotation.
I don't understand how the boar's charge ability was so "broken." Having every other mob or so, depending on how fast you kill them, From what I gather, they simply fixed something that was never intended to function that way.
The reality now is that a hunter with any decent amount of gear is going to be pulling aggro from their pet constantly. The more gear, the harder it is to farm now.
Ironically, since growl is based off the hunter's ap, MM hunters have higher threat growls than BM hunters.
Another annoying aspect is that this boar nerf further "normalized" pets, making them even less different than the other. They nerf one of the few pets that has any unique and beneficial skill that truly seperates it from the plethora of pets that in effect differ in cosmetics alone.
I refuse to abandon Siegfried my undead boar in hopes that they will either revert the nerf or make pets able to hold aggro.
styopa May 8th 2008 11:39AM
All I know is that it seems to me a fairly reasonable expectation that a BM-spec hunter, in reasonably good gear (I have some epics, but no Tier 4-5-6 pieces) should be able to AUTOSHOOT without *any* chance of pulling aggro off his pet.
For roughly the last month or six weeks, it hasn't been happening that way. Certainly, if I use ANY sort of steadyshot or arcane shot, I will almost certainly pull aggro off my pet...and just letting it autoshot is boring - what do you think I am, a pally? A fortunate couple of autoshot crits and I pull aggro anyway.
Rob May 8th 2008 12:45PM
My understandnig of the issue is as follows. 1) *something* changed in 2.4, that something was probably the fact that growl no longer fires first. 2) That lead to the charge/growl uncoupling, thus boars got hit hard with 2.4. 3) That lead to Hortus saying that growl will no longer stack with pet AP, thus nerfing boars. Fine. I have no idea if this nerf has still taken place or not. I'm guessing it has. All pets are doing less aggro due to #1. 4) Hortus claims that pet growl now stacks with hunter AP. The reports are not so clear but it doesn't look like it.
The upshot of this isn't that the hunter class is broken, but we need to readjust. Boars are no longer supreme. I went out and tamed a skettis owl (plus another owl to get max screech first). With this owl at loyality 2 (screech trained). I could down the skettis tree giants just fine.
For grinding, you will now need to do the following.
1) Pet attack, wait for growl to fire first. Then steady shot/autoshot. 2) Misdirect whenever its up. Doing this initially will almost guarantee you will not pull aggro. 3) Intimidate when up. Again you won't pull aggro if this is done. 4) FD at mob's half health mark (usually when you are about to pull aggro). 5) If all these are on CD and you are still having threat issues at the beginning, you need to go back to #1. 6) If you pull threat half-way through and all CDs exhausted, hit disengage or just autoshot. I almost never get to 6.
We have a ton of aggro management tools under our belt. We can still grind fine to do dailies and what not. With lower level pets its very painful due to lack of max growl rank. It's always been that way. Hunters are not broken, we just need to readjust our playstyle.