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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsDungeons and Raids in Wrath of the Lich King
by Robin Torres 
May 9th 2008 at 3:55AM
There's more news coming in for Wrath of the Lich King regarding how dungeons and raids will work. First the 5-mans:- All 5-man dungeons will have a Heroic mode
- Heroic dungeons will have a separate loot table than non-Heroics
- A new token system will be used, similar to the Badge of Justice one used now
- The 5-man instances are designed to not take more than an hour
- All raid dungeons will have both 10-man and 25-man versions
- The 10 and 25-man progressions will not depend on each other
- There will be no attunements or keys necessary for any raid
- The 25-man loot will be a tier higher than the 10-man loot
- The 10 and 25-man versions of the same raid will be on different timers so that each can be attempted on the same day by the same people
[via Gamespy and World of War]
Filed under: News items, Expansions, Raiding, Wrath of the Lich King
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 4)
Mowglie May 9th 2008 5:09AM
This is the best news I've heard since the BC release.
Zarzuur May 9th 2008 5:43AM
This combined 10/25 raid progression is AWESOME for guilds who don't have 25 people regularly. I am surprised if they would have a 10-man Arthas (but I'm not going to argue against it!).
But what about the one-tier difference between 10/25? .. it seems like it would be easier to gear up in the 10s, then switch over to the last 25? This doesn't seem right if the two lower 25s are skipped out .. (unless they make the loot really different.)
(Also the 1 hour time for 5-mans sounds good too .. it will be easier to play more of them and then get new people into raiding.)
Meyl May 9th 2008 11:35AM
Actually, for many 25-man guilds, this is *great* news. We were dreading being forced to start WotLK raiding in 10-man instances.
We've worked hard to build a team for 25-man raids. The last thing we wanted to do in WotLK was to break up into 10-man teams. That brings headaches with class balance, people sitting out more often (unless you run three teams, which stretches the guild pretty thin), resentment and jealousy if one team progresses faster, friends being unhappy at being put on different teams...ugh. Then we'd have to bring all those people back together and get them used to working as a single team again. It would have been a real pain.
Being able to go right into 25-mans and keep the whole crew together right from the start will be much better for us. And we will still have the option to run the instances as 10-mans on off-nights for badges and to help bring new members closer to our gear levels.
Still, I think it is an even bigger win for small guilds. They will get to see the full lore and content (albeit with lesser loot) instead of running out of content after only two instances.
Elmo May 9th 2008 5:54AM
10 man versions of Raids are great.
now large and small guilds both have a chance on real progression rather than beeing stuck in Kara and ZA
If you have a 25 man raid and not everyone got in they can do a 10 man.
and the larger raiding guilds can gear up new members faster this way.
Faux May 9th 2008 6:14AM
This is easily the best change to the raiding scene the game has seen.
The raiders get to wag their epeens with higher tier loot from the 25mans and the casuals get to experience content just like anyone else. (This, more or less, is what the WoW endgame was intended to be before WoW went beta all those long years ago.)
And make no mistake, any raider who disagrees with this decision is either a fool or an entitlement stooge. There is *no* logical reason to restrict content to some 'higher' band of players while preventing the largest section of the playerbase from seeing it. None what so ever. The content is not devalued just because it's more accessible.
As for the 'OMG, 10 people can kill Arthas? Bulls**t!' argument, it too is fallacious at best and spiteful at worst. Less people translates to a more epic and more personal fight. With 25+ people you're just a face in the crowd, but in a 10man your specific abilities, talents, and play style are unique and worthwhile. And if you look back at the WoW lore, the game has historically been a series of 1v1 or small group encounters. (Arthas and Jaina versus Kel'thuzad, Kael and Vashj versus Maiev/Lord Garithos, Arthas vs Mal'Ganis, and so on.) Even in other traditional fantasy mediums, a group of 4-7 people is the norm.
Why people don't think others should see content if for no other reason than some perceived lessening of quality is beyond me entirely.
SpaceDog May 9th 2008 6:10AM
The 10 man / 25 man thing is great news. I'm really happy about this.
Hopefully not too many people will get their knickers in a twist about it - I'm sure the 25 man version will offer lots of benefits and rewards over the 10 man versions. And those that prefer 25 man raids won't be missing out.
I'd just ask the complainers to be less greedy and more considerate of other people with regards to the time they spend raiding and the way they want to play.
Anyway, still, woot!
themann1086 May 9th 2008 11:43AM
This is sweet. Very cool idea, hopefully it gets implemented well!
Lios May 9th 2008 6:58AM
Ella said: Just because the casuals "need" to see and experience everything ingame, the raiders then need to do the SAME instance with the SAME bosses all over again.
No, you don't. You can go straight into 25 man if you can field the people. It's not needed to finish it with 10 man first.
I love the idea! I play the same game as you, I want to see all content to. I just don't have the time or guild a raider has, so this is a perfect solution. And who cares if you kill the Lich King with 10 people? Gruul is also being killed with 10 people, if though it's supposed to take 25... I don't hear anyone complaining about that.
Skiftor May 9th 2008 7:32AM
Blizz really knows what they're doing! They keep making things better and better without breaking the game, and so many more people will be able to do all the end game content with EVERY raid being 10 or 25 man.
!!! Warning long post (for short version see #8's post)
Ella, Warcloud and Kumar - (and other people who think 10/25 Raids is a mistake)
The 25 man raids will have the better loot tables and more difficult bosses therefore making them "epic". Hopefully epic enough for you and your uber super awesome elite guild that deserves to see end game content more than I, and rest of the people who play the game do.
From the article, "Kaplan was very keen to stress that the 25 man setup would still be the most elite, rewarding experience out there."
Think about this please:
No one is forcing you to do the 10 man versions of these raids, you don't have to fight a "nerfed" Arthas, just do the 25 man version. You never have to even see him in his "weakened state" blizz made for us gamers that aren't worthy enough to play game.
From the article, "The 10 and 25-man progressions will not depend on each other"
I understand that you don't want to run the 10 man and the 25 man raid over and over again (you should try understanding that the people who keep the game alive financially and keep it growing deserve to see the end game content), but nowhere in this article has blizz said anything about guilds having to gear up on the 10 man version in order to do the 25 man.
Honestly what makes a raid epic? (I always thought it had something to do with the important [lore/story wise] bosses, thoroughly/creative/innovative dungeons and purple loot). Remember the Epic level 60 hunter quest? Only took one person, yet it's considered an epic quest w/ epic loot.
If 40 man raids were epic before tbc, doesn't that make BT less than epic? Haha you've been fighting a nerfed version of illidan this whole time! He should be a 40 man raid. Arthas (in all his greatness) should be a 100 man raid! Personally I think blizz is screwing you over and giving you guys the easy route only needing 25 peeps to raid. /sarcasm over.
You say blizz hasn't been generous enough to make more raids in between BT and Sunwell, well did you ever come to think that a very large portion of people who raid have yet to do BT yet, let alone Sunwell? So why should blizz slap together more 25 mans just because you and your guildies are lacking in the RL department? I hear there's many mmo's with a much higher difficulty scale than wow. Maybe you should close your accounts and find a game that's epic enough for yoU!
It's a game for everyone to play, not just you!
Sorry for the extra long post, the elitist attitude some people have has really been pushing my buttons lately.
CasualElitist May 9th 2008 12:29PM
Skiftor, who are you kidding? People like you could care less about seeing "endgame content", you're just after the same loot the more hardcore raiders get for a lot less effort.
It's people like you who expect to be run through content and down Arthas on the day you turn 80 and get auto'd the loot because everyone you are running with already learned the fight for you.
I consider myself "casual" as I don't raid 25-mans all week long (just a couple times per week like most guilds). For those of you who are saying that just because a guild runs 25-mans it's "not fun" or "too serious" I'd like to point out that this is completely untrue. I run 25-mans and I have just as much fun as when I run 10-man raids. As long as you know your role and carry your own, 25-man raiding guilds are fun (and yes, casual). A 25-man group can be far more difficult to play in because you have to learn group coordination and complex boss fights. Saying it's easier than a 10-man raid just proves the point that you are, in fact, a skill-less noob.
energyvortex May 9th 2008 8:12AM
NO attunment or keys for the new stuff eh?
What about removing the attunement and keys for the old stuff? How many people run Molten Core these days? Or Ony? or even Scholo? No one even bothers getting their alts keyed for the old world content.
kiaus May 9th 2008 9:13AM
Attn energyvortex,
I think only Onixya has attunment left. Blizz kept that 'cause the quests were so awesome and made of win.
As for this 10 man versions of all raids, I say bring it on !!!
There will still be 'leet' 25 man versions with Uberloot, but folk like me who cannot raid four nights a week may get to see a bit more of the game.
I am super-stoked about this, and need to get levelling my chars asap !!
wyrd May 9th 2008 2:59PM
Obviously you havent done the horde version of the ony attunement. And leaving an attunement in for the quest isnt something blizzard is going to do. They removed the BC attunements and just left the quests in place so people can still do them
Cat May 9th 2008 9:21AM
Wow. Elitism much?
Just because you're so uber and awesome that you could probably take down Arthas with one hand tied behind your back and in your sleep doesn't mean that other people don't have RL obligations that they need to meet, or that they're in a small, friends-based raiding guild that can't consistently field 10 men, let alone 25. These 'noobs' and 'scrubs' that you're scoffing about deserve to see this content just as much as your overly-epic'd ego.
This... perception that people who aren't already knee-deep in BT are worth nothing and bring nothing to the game is ridiculous. We're not stepping on the 'hardcore' raiders' toes, which is what I'm assuming the fuss is about. You'll get your world, continent, and server firsts, which is what you want. We'll get to have fun and see these epic battles, which is what we want. Everyone's happy, so quit raining on everyone's parade.
Daimon May 9th 2008 9:21AM
you ppl start crying when it isn't rly clear how is going to be, it's said all raids of 25man will have 10man; the Lich king encounter won't be released until months later the release of the exp, and nothing is carved in stone, blizzard very well may restrict the 10man rule off that high instance, and some others later released; is not new blizzard changing things. Plus I don't think that all the 16 bosses of Naxx2 will be in the 10man instance, they may give shortcuts with less bosses, etc. on top of that the gear will be 10x better in the 25man versions, so wait and see, stop the early QQ.
Chriasas May 9th 2008 9:32AM
I LOVE this change! It's a natural compromise between casual and hardcore. Everyone has a reasonable chance of seeing endgame, with the only difference being the gear drops in 25 are better. So, you can morph your Karazhan group into the new endgame and actually look forward to Arthas, or you can go hardcore and do the raids a 25 man, with the best in-game gear dropping there.
It satisfies casuals, hardcores, junkies, and e-peners. All playing types get what they want.
Zeplar May 9th 2008 9:36AM
Interesting changes; I'm neutral/interested in them. Could be better, could be worse, at least it's very different. I support the
Dave May 9th 2008 11:42AM
This is the exact announcement I was waiting for to base my decision on whether to keep playing or not.
I don't do 25-man instances because I'm not interested in the absolute layers and layers of nonsense surrounding it. Giving up your "friendly" guild to go with a "progression" guild in order to advance to the higher tier raids, no thanks! Having to use absurd things like DKP and poaching other raiders and watching your friends get poached from your guild when you hit a stumbling point? No thanks!
I'm not casual by any means, and I really think the term is due for an overhaul or disappearing, but I don't DO 25-man raids. That doesn't mean I'm some sort of bad player that's unworthy of playing the "epic" game, but it just means I value friends and playing in small groups a lot more than I'm interested in tolerating 15+ people I don't know and don't like just to get purple gear and see more instances.
This is the exact perfect change that I wanted. I don't care that my loot will be on a level behind other people, because it's not about that. I just want to be able to play the game I'm paying the same amount of money for as the people who are able to schedule their lives in 4hr chunks with 24 other people often enough to do the 25-man content.
I think that the amount of raiders who will be doing 10-man AND 25-man variants is vastly overreacting at this point. Your guild won't want to go back and do identical 10-man content unless you've just got some crazy stupid desire to blow through all the content in a month and get sick of things. If your guild wants to do that, maybe you should re-assess your guild and their priorities rather than just go along with the herd for your phat purpz.
I love it, I'm going to re-sub for sure now. I was on the fence until I at least heard their ideas for new raids and I'm sold now.
Matthew Rossi May 9th 2008 1:29PM
I primarily raid 25 man now, and I expect I won't even run 10 man raid content when WoTLK comes out unless we have an off night and only 19 folks show up. But I agree with what you said anyway. It's good for both sides.
svenhoek May 11th 2008 2:49AM
Ya this announcement actually made me renew my account. This is honestly the best thing Blizz has done for the game.