Is it really OK for Arthas to be 10-mannable?

So one of the most exciting announcements from the recent flurry of news about WoTLK, at least from my point of view, is the that there will be 10-man and 25-man versions of every raid. Think about that for a moment. Yeah, that's right. That means that you and 9 other friends will be able to scale the heights of Icecrown Glacier and topple Arthas himself from his frigid throne.
This has more than a few people worried.
The worries are many. Will this mean people won't want to do the the 25-mans when they can have the same experience in a 10-man? Mike pointed out in one of our conversations in WoW Insider's secret lair that we were originally told that even 40 level 80s wouldn't be able to take down Arthas. Some are concerned that we really shouldn't be able to take down one of the most powerful entities in Azeroth, and possibly in the Universe, with only 10 people. I think all of these worries are addressable.
What about the Lore?
There's actually been some telegraphing that we'd get some type of change similar to this due to lore reasons for a while. Ever since last year, Blizzard has been talking about making WoTLK more "personal" and making sure people at all levels of the game have a chance to invest themselves in the lore by giving them a chance to interact with major figures such as Arthas. They've already started applying this philosophy in game with the Magister's Terrace, where five people can take down Kael'thas Sunstrider.
In that case, the 10-man/25-man split makes a lot of sense. Letting more people have a crack at Arthas and participating in his downfall makes a huge amount of sense and should make the story a lot more personal for a lot more players. Beyond that, even if you are interacting with Arthas all through the whole leveling process, if you're also shut out from taking the guy down at the end, it might end up being a bit of a buzzkill.
Beyond that, we should realize that the lore power-level of an encounter doesn't always directly match up to the game difficulty rating. After all, as Drysc points out, the Gnomes were chased out of their city by a level 28 that could be soloed by a single Ironforge Guard, and the Trolls by a level 10 and his level 7-9 minions. By a similar token, you can bring a conspiracy that spans half the Eastern Kingdoms and threatens to topple Stormwind to its knees with a group of 5 people of levels 17-20 or so. If all that isn't epic enough for you, 5 level 70s can take down a malevolent force from beyond our reality with the power to destroy worlds with a mere yawn in the Shadow Labyrinth. I could go on all day, but it's pretty obvious that number and level of people required to defeat an encounter doesn't always have an impact on the exact significance of the encounter from a lore or storytelling perspective.
Does this mean it will be too easy?
Another concern of people is that defeating Arthas shouldn't be as easy as jaunting into Karazhan with a bunch of people in assorted dungeon blues and clearing the place in 3 hours. Drysc offers a reality check on that as well. All 10-mans will not be created equal. Even today, there are groups who can clear Karazhan but still struggle with Zul'aman, or at the least have never managed a complete timed clear of the place. Similarly, you shouldn't expect to be able to simply waltz into 10-man Icecrown Glacier, kill Arthas, and go home. Yes, you'll no longer have to coordinate 25 people, but you'll still have to coordinate 10 people, and the dungeons will be constructed with a definite progression in mind. 10-man Icecrown Glacier is sure to be much harder than 10-man Naxxramas, even more so than Zul'aman is tougher than Karazhan. 10-man will still be a challenging progression in its own right.
Does this mean no-one will want to run the 25-man?
Honestly, our own Matthew "The Vykrul" Rossi has probably covered this about as well as I ever could. There's still plenty of incentives for the 25-man raider. There's likely to be bigger challenges from the bosses and more opportunities for more classes. In addition, there's definitely going to be better gear in the 25-mans. This has been confirmed. And since Arena gear will probably still need ratings in Season 5, more people will probably return to raiding as a way to get the best gear -- and I'd bet quite a bit that if Frostmourne is a drop, It won't be coming from the 10-man version of the instance.
Does this mean they went back on their word?
Sure, at one point some CM or Developer said that you'd probably have to have at least 40 level 100 characters to defeat Arthas or something like that, but... things change. Drysc makes a good argument about it -- A Good game company should be adapting and changing. The idea should be to make a game that is fun and accessible to as many people as possible. If this means that you need to make a few changes to earlier decisions or design philosophies, that is something to be celebrated and encouraged, not maligned. In this case, Blizzard is looking to open up the story and encounters of the game in a way that allows a much larger portion of the player base to experience them and have a feeling of investment in the game world. That is a good thing.
Final Thoughts
I really do applaud this move by Blizzard. It's a gutsy one, but one I ultimately see as being beneficial for the game as a whole, at all levels. They're allowing more people to invest themselves into the lore and story of Northrend, the Scourge, and the game world in general. 25-manners will have more challenging encounters and better loot to look forward to, while 10-manners can progress through the story as well, challenging themselves at their own level. Wrath of the Lich King should evolve World of Warcraft into an even more enjoyable game for everyone, and that is certainly in part thanks to innovations like the new 10 and 25-man split.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Blizzard, Instances, Expansions, Raiding, Lore, Bosses
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Reader Comments (Page 3 of 7)
Timothy May 11th 2008 9:43PM
If im not mistaken they said they would all be 10 man to some point....that could mean that there not including the last boss or last few bosses
Iwanttobeasleep May 10th 2008 9:05PM
I'm kind of sick of people complaining about it "violating" the lore. It's a video game, not a novel. And while it might have an interesting storyline, sometimes things have to violate the story for the game to work. Asking if 10 people can kill Arthas is no different than asking if Arthas can be killed at all. Raid bosses need to be killable for the game to progress. I don't think it's that reasonable that we expect players to pay their $15 a month, then look down on them when they actually want to be able to finish the game.
I'm a lore freak too, but I have this awesome ability: suspension of disbelief. Learn to use it.
Timothy Bower May 10th 2008 9:09PM
Well, I just think the 10-man is for those who want to play the content, or get the story. Or both.
But from my point of view, I think it's perfect that 10 people go into to fight the Lich King. If a per story stance, people complain that they had to have fourty back in Molten Core. Well, let's just look at from a step back, after you took down Ragnaros and all these big baddies as a Soldier, you moved on to 25 man, and took down Kael and Illidan as more of a strong group. Well at this point, you are now 10 heroes, going up to face the Lich King himself. Not some lame army they could get wiped out in instance. What movie have you ever seen where an army goes against one man, and they win? Never. Well, the army guys are usually no-names that get their faces sliced in half. While the one guy is usually god's-more-powerful.
But 10 people? It's a group of the strongest individuals facing off against the strongest of them all.
Seems epic to me.
I'd rather be a name in a group, than a face in an army.
Though of course, pure raiders will want to face him in their 25 man if they feel that is more Epic and of course, get more Epic-than-my-epic gear for their progress.
I think it's perfect.
Kaphik May 11th 2008 8:57AM
You pretty much stated my same opinion. AFighting the Lich King will be an epic fight, whether it's with 25 people or 10 people.
One thing I think some of you fail to realize, or didn't notice, was that to get to the final 10 person raid you still have to progress through the other ones. It's not going to be easy.
Karazhan is easy now, when people were first running it it provided some challenge. Zul'Aman is still very difficult for a lot of people.
I personally love the idea of 10 and 25 person raids. I know my guild will be doing both.
Aler May 10th 2008 9:24PM
We've been told that there will be 10 and 25 man versions of each raid, but have we ever been told that they will be the same? Scaling up the difficulty of a fight from 10 people to 25 is much more involved than the difference between an normal and heroic 5 man. More damage and more hit points isn't enough. My suspicion is that the raids may take place in the same setting and with the same actors, but will be completely different beasts.
This may even be more extreme. I love the melding of the Blood Furnace and Magtherion's Lair. As you fight through the 5 man, you hear Mag taunting you, and see him at the end, but you only get to fight him in the raid. It would be nice if the Arthas fight went the same way - as a 10 man, you can fight right up to his doorstep, but only in the 25 man do you take him on. Or in the 10 man you fight him to a stalemate, and in the 25 man you kill him.
slimj091 May 10th 2008 11:04PM
that would contradict the whole point of having a 10 man version and 25 man version of every raid in WotLK.. what would be the point of doing the 10 man icecrown if you get a pop up at the end saying "thank you for trying the trial icecrown citadel raid instance. if you would like to continue please deposit an additional 15 raiders"?
clegane May 11th 2008 4:22AM
Yeah, you're talking out your back side here. Total speculation. No one know's what it's going to be like yet. Chances are that the encounters ARE going to be more similar between the 10 and 25 man encounters. It's much easier for developers to just dumb down HP and DMG from a mob than it is to retune and recreate an entire encounter.
(here I go on my speculation... /sigh) I think, for the most part, the instances are going to be the same, with just harder versions of mobs (just like normal and heroic instances in BC).
As a 10 man raider, who's been through both 10 man instances in BC, I like the change. Currently my account is canceled because of the lack of 10 man content. This is a good move and will bring me back as a customer. I think that's what Blizz is going for. There's a heck of a lot more people like me out there, than there are of "hardcore" raiders.
Thecla May 10th 2008 9:35PM
I think the ten mans are a great idea. As for the elitists and lore freaks crying about it - get a grip!! Those of us who will do the ten mans are not detracting from your game one bit - and as for those who are concerned about "who will bother to do the 25 mans" there are plenty of us who don't enjoy those and wouldn't go with you anyway.
Procris May 10th 2008 9:31PM
Its not okay period to have an Arthas encounter. I really hate how Bliz are constantly "killing off" the bad guys in WoW. If Warcraft3 and lore in general taught us anything, its that the "good" guys don't always win.
Now being how the Lich king has the ability to foresee the future to some degree, you'd think he wouldn't allow a group of 10 or 25 people to walk right into his own backyard.
Andrew May 10th 2008 9:39PM
What are you talking about? The "Good Guys" won in WC I, WC II and WC III; sure, they didn't always survive winning, but they definitely won in the end.
Daniel Whitcomb May 10th 2008 10:22PM
Major heroes have been dying in Warcraft games since the first one. Lothar, the original hero of the Humans, without whom they would have been swallowed up by the Orcish Horde, was slain dishonorably in an ambush (I refuse to honor the single combat retcon that was thought up to make Doomhammer look good).
Sometimes an old character has to die for the good of the story. I am more than happy to kill Illidan and Arthas and Kael'thas and all the rest. WC3 was their story. This is our story. And things change, and people die.
Procris May 10th 2008 9:31PM
Its not okay period to have an Arthas encounter. I really hate how Bliz are constantly "killing off" the bad guys in WoW. If Warcraft3 and lore in general taught us anything, its that the "good" guys don't always win.
Now being how the Lich king has the ability to foresee the future to some degree, you'd think he wouldn't allow a group of 10 or 25 people to walk right into his own backyard.
Kadathwack May 10th 2008 9:34PM
Well, there's many things about the encounter that we don't know. We don't know what kind of NPC characters are taking part in the battle alongside the players. There are a lot of big names that'd love to see the Lich King taken down a peg.
I mean, to be honest, we're not entirely sure we even kill him at all. I'd be a little frustrated seeing him die to a 10-man group too, but there just isn't enough information out yet to get angsty.
Marco Polaris May 10th 2008 9:43PM
It amazes me that even after the Burning Crusade, people will still cry about the fall of their favorite villains (slash "heroes"). I had hoped that we'd matured out of this with our acclimation to Illidan as a raid boss, but I've overestimated the player base, it seems.
The Lich King (more Ner'zhul than Arthas, really) being killable in a 10-man raid is NOT a lore issue, despite what many claim. Daniel provides a long list of evidence as to why number of people and level of items don't mean jack squat about the actual power of the being slain.
It is a common problem among many roleplayers - they feel that if they can't fit every little thing about a game into a real environment, then it's lorebreaking. These are the players who try to explain away instant mail, gryphon taxis, the leveling system, and why a mob will completely ignore you if you stand outside their imaginary aggro line. They need the game to fit tightly around the world, or else their thin bubble of immersion pops, and everything is ruined.
What these people need to really understand is that roleplay is something that can exist alongside the real game. Once you separate the two, then "important questions" such as character death or loot tables that don't match what the mob is wearing become moot - those are game issues, not roleplay issues, and once you can accept that, you stop thinking about it, and you're find that roleplay actually has room to become more realistic and immersive. Instead, many roleplayers tend to build the Warcraft setting into an elaborate, surreal Alice in Wonderland scenario.
To use JRPGs as an example, the characters in the game never think about how they swing at an enemy on the far side of the screen and hit, without even having to move. It's because, as far as the story is concerned, they're not just standing there, they are actually moving up and attacking directly with the sword. In the same way, a lot of features in WoW are not intended for realism of setting, but more enjoyable gameplay. Trying to make game rules a part of your roleplay doesn't make you a better RPer.
But really, it's not a lore issue even if all the above were not relevant. It's a character fanboism issue. If Illidan was the Drizzt Do'Urden of WoW to most of the fanbase, than Arthas is the Sephiroth. Us lowly human beings have no right to tarnish their idolated layers of pixels, not unless we've got a few "real" heroes along with us and two different armies to help even the odds.
SaintStryfe May 11th 2008 3:45AM
it gives the Driz'it/Sephiroth slash fiction and doshujin on 4chan a whole new layer of wrongness, though.
Gulbrandt May 10th 2008 10:12PM
Sure, I think it would be okay to kill the Lich King with a 10-man or a 25-man group. I think it's not really a question of "how many" people kill Arthas, but a question of "how hard will it be?"
I think that the encounter should be appropriately difficult no matter what size group goes in to kill him. Arthas should trip up people in 10-man raids just as much as it would trip up a 25-man raid. A 10-man raid on Arthas shouldn't necessarily be "easier".
To me, it doesn't really matter. I think of games where there is just one hero versus the villain. I think of console games where you have 3, 4, 5 party members. The odds are stacked very high against them, and they are facing certain doom each time they go in to attack the Ultimate Bad Guy--that is, until they get the strategy down.
Whether you have 10, 25, 40, or a regiment of fighters, it should be just as hard for that one group as it is for any other group.
Kemek May 10th 2008 10:22PM
Non issue. From an RP standpoint would be 10 fearless fighters decked out in the finest magical armor and weaponry who have already managed huge feats of daring and completed a thousand quests throughout the lands. Exalted throughout kingdoms and honored by kings.
10 such masters of magic and steel should have a chance against the likes of the litch king, methinks.
Dave May 10th 2008 10:26PM
I'm pretty sure they said the same loot from every instance.
So yes, if Frostmourne drops from the Lich King (it won't) you'd get it in the 10-man, same as if BT was a 10-man scaled down version, you'd get Warglaives. The percentages would be different, the stats might even be different, but you'd get the same loot at some point. Maybe you'll have to get trash drops + pieces of the loot to make up for the difference, but the ENTIRE POINT of the instances being available to everyone seems to be to GET RID OF THE ELITIST MENTALITY that only a slim portion of the game gets to actually enjoy everything it contains.
If you want to do the 25-man stuff, knock yourself out you'll get better loot faster. That should really be the only difference left anymore, unless you expect the game to die off quicker rather than later.
Emoroan May 11th 2008 12:27AM
Erm, no. They said the 10 man would be a lower tier of gear then the equivalent 25 man, so it's not the same gear at all.
Klingers May 10th 2008 10:55PM
Yes it is perfectly bloody ok to ten-man Arthas. Why? Because my character is supposed to be the centre of "my" WoW story, and Arthas is supposed to be that final battle our individual stories are supposed to draw towards.
You know, I consider myself a bit of a lore buff and as much as you can claim "I'm a lore nerd, Arthas is too powerful for 25 people to fight, let alone ten!" Can you seriously put an arbitrary number on these encounters from a story perspective?
The whole point of the GAME is to make you feel as though you're growing in strength, abilities and power. Obviously as individuals our characters are no Thrall or Lothar, but they're getting pretty damn close by level 70 even. According to whatever factions we're exhalted with we're their sole greatest champions worthy of praise and adulation. Let's just ignore the 4 other guys you did the quests with eh? Just part of how an MMO makes "you" feel special.
Anyways, I'm veering off-topic. The big thing is that for the first time ever we should appreciate the fact that Blizzard is weighing accessibility of *content* versus accessibility of *rewards* and seperating the two.
If I'm in a casual guild, don't care as much about the top epic loot and just want the fulfillment of facing an important enemy (especially considering all the leadup to illidan while levelling to 70 and then just having it all fizzle out for casuals when they hit the raid wall), then yes, my supposedly heroic and undefeatable gnome who can set things on fire with his mind and summon waves of demons should be able to face down the lich king with nine other people of equal stature at 80.
Anyway.... Rant over.