Is it really OK for Arthas to be 10-mannable?

So one of the most exciting announcements from the recent flurry of news about WoTLK, at least from my point of view, is the that there will be 10-man and 25-man versions of every raid. Think about that for a moment. Yeah, that's right. That means that you and 9 other friends will be able to scale the heights of Icecrown Glacier and topple Arthas himself from his frigid throne.
This has more than a few people worried.
The worries are many. Will this mean people won't want to do the the 25-mans when they can have the same experience in a 10-man? Mike pointed out in one of our conversations in WoW Insider's secret lair that we were originally told that even 40 level 80s wouldn't be able to take down Arthas. Some are concerned that we really shouldn't be able to take down one of the most powerful entities in Azeroth, and possibly in the Universe, with only 10 people. I think all of these worries are addressable.
What about the Lore?
There's actually been some telegraphing that we'd get some type of change similar to this due to lore reasons for a while. Ever since last year, Blizzard has been talking about making WoTLK more "personal" and making sure people at all levels of the game have a chance to invest themselves in the lore by giving them a chance to interact with major figures such as Arthas. They've already started applying this philosophy in game with the Magister's Terrace, where five people can take down Kael'thas Sunstrider.
In that case, the 10-man/25-man split makes a lot of sense. Letting more people have a crack at Arthas and participating in his downfall makes a huge amount of sense and should make the story a lot more personal for a lot more players. Beyond that, even if you are interacting with Arthas all through the whole leveling process, if you're also shut out from taking the guy down at the end, it might end up being a bit of a buzzkill.
Beyond that, we should realize that the lore power-level of an encounter doesn't always directly match up to the game difficulty rating. After all, as Drysc points out, the Gnomes were chased out of their city by a level 28 that could be soloed by a single Ironforge Guard, and the Trolls by a level 10 and his level 7-9 minions. By a similar token, you can bring a conspiracy that spans half the Eastern Kingdoms and threatens to topple Stormwind to its knees with a group of 5 people of levels 17-20 or so. If all that isn't epic enough for you, 5 level 70s can take down a malevolent force from beyond our reality with the power to destroy worlds with a mere yawn in the Shadow Labyrinth. I could go on all day, but it's pretty obvious that number and level of people required to defeat an encounter doesn't always have an impact on the exact significance of the encounter from a lore or storytelling perspective.
Does this mean it will be too easy?
Another concern of people is that defeating Arthas shouldn't be as easy as jaunting into Karazhan with a bunch of people in assorted dungeon blues and clearing the place in 3 hours. Drysc offers a reality check on that as well. All 10-mans will not be created equal. Even today, there are groups who can clear Karazhan but still struggle with Zul'aman, or at the least have never managed a complete timed clear of the place. Similarly, you shouldn't expect to be able to simply waltz into 10-man Icecrown Glacier, kill Arthas, and go home. Yes, you'll no longer have to coordinate 25 people, but you'll still have to coordinate 10 people, and the dungeons will be constructed with a definite progression in mind. 10-man Icecrown Glacier is sure to be much harder than 10-man Naxxramas, even more so than Zul'aman is tougher than Karazhan. 10-man will still be a challenging progression in its own right.
Does this mean no-one will want to run the 25-man?
Honestly, our own Matthew "The Vykrul" Rossi has probably covered this about as well as I ever could. There's still plenty of incentives for the 25-man raider. There's likely to be bigger challenges from the bosses and more opportunities for more classes. In addition, there's definitely going to be better gear in the 25-mans. This has been confirmed. And since Arena gear will probably still need ratings in Season 5, more people will probably return to raiding as a way to get the best gear -- and I'd bet quite a bit that if Frostmourne is a drop, It won't be coming from the 10-man version of the instance.
Does this mean they went back on their word?
Sure, at one point some CM or Developer said that you'd probably have to have at least 40 level 100 characters to defeat Arthas or something like that, but... things change. Drysc makes a good argument about it -- A Good game company should be adapting and changing. The idea should be to make a game that is fun and accessible to as many people as possible. If this means that you need to make a few changes to earlier decisions or design philosophies, that is something to be celebrated and encouraged, not maligned. In this case, Blizzard is looking to open up the story and encounters of the game in a way that allows a much larger portion of the player base to experience them and have a feeling of investment in the game world. That is a good thing.
Final Thoughts
I really do applaud this move by Blizzard. It's a gutsy one, but one I ultimately see as being beneficial for the game as a whole, at all levels. They're allowing more people to invest themselves into the lore and story of Northrend, the Scourge, and the game world in general. 25-manners will have more challenging encounters and better loot to look forward to, while 10-manners can progress through the story as well, challenging themselves at their own level. Wrath of the Lich King should evolve World of Warcraft into an even more enjoyable game for everyone, and that is certainly in part thanks to innovations like the new 10 and 25-man split.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Blizzard, Instances, Expansions, Raiding, Lore, Bosses
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Reader Comments (Page 5 of 7)
Blodyavenger May 11th 2008 3:49AM
Like Robert said, it's not Arthas but Lich King and second things...who said that we are going to kill him? Maybe Lich King but not Arthas. Noone said that, blizzard said just that we will see him and interact with him, that's all.
Maybe I'm wrong...
Spiritwolf (Tom) May 11th 2008 4:19AM
Arthy is but one man. And myself and my nine guild mates have killed elemental lords, great dragons, old gods, betrayers, etc, etc.
I'd imagine just two of us could take out Arthus without it 'not making sense'.
EdgEy May 11th 2008 4:52AM
People are bloody selfish. Seriously.
All this bitching about "raiders are elitist! waah! they wanna show off their epeen!"
How many raiders actually say that? How many raiders do you see splashing /2 LOOK AT MY EPEX?
Get a fucking grip and realise it is you, the casuals, no, the bad players that want to put no work in, that cause this. If it was a hard 10 man ala harder than ZA you would cry also. "Omg it's too hard! 5man plz!"
slimj091 May 11th 2008 10:23PM
quite a few actually. and if your saying that your a hardcore raider decked out in T6 that doesnt make fun of the people you see that is still in kara/t4 gear. your a freakin liar. all raiders in high end content raiding guilds do this.. some do it publicly to their victims faces. others do it secretly amoungst their fellow guildies.
i personally can count for days how many times i've been whispered on my kara/t4 geared tank by players in t5/t6 gear that i need to "l2ply nub and get better gear!"
EdgEy May 14th 2008 12:22PM
IF you expect to do content that requires that gear, sure. I don't have full T6, i've never been made fun of for it, if you have, lol @ u. Overly sensitive much?
Jessierockeron May 27th 2008 7:44AM
You don't see the other hardcore raiders flaming casuals like you.
I bet you live with your mom
Jessierockeron May 27th 2008 7:45AM
When I said "like you", I wasn't calling you a casual player, I meant to say, "like us"
Brian May 11th 2008 4:41AM
If you look at Arthas' skills and abilities at the end of WCIII TFT a level 70 could take him out easily. What makes me more curious is how Kil'Jaden is currently set up to take the final fall of the Burning Crusade expansion. In my mind Kil'Jaden is worth at least 100 Arthas' if not 1000. I mean it took Thrall, Jaina and Tyrande and their armies to slow down Archimonde and then it took Malfurion Stormrage to cast a strong enough spell to kill him.
The Lich King was created as a lackey by the leaders of the Burning Crusade who I assume were Archimonde and Kil'Jaden I think he is very much 10 man-able after all Gandalf soloed the Balrog and Eowyn and Merry two manned the Witch King of Angmar. In computer game history it has more often than not come down to a lone hero to take on the ultimate evil in the world and win. 10 level 80s vs Arthas? They'll kick his ass. 10 level 80s vs Tyrande? They should get their asses handed to them. Weird innit? :P (btw 10 level 10s versus that whining smeg head Fandral Staghelm should kick his winging butt back to Silithus where he can whine and moan without us having to listen to it)
clegane May 11th 2008 4:44AM
That'd be fine, as long as you don't expect to get purple drops. I know that purple's are the new blues in BC, but let's not cheapen them too much! Endgame is about progression of your gear. If you're decked in purples after walking through the first instance, that would be dumb.
Remember there will be lots of 5 man instances in the game still, that are going to drop lots of nice blues. There's going to be heroic versions of those, that are going to have entirely new loot tables (from the normal modes), there will be entry level PvP gear that will be accessible, I'm sure. There'll be lots of ways to get "entry" raid gear.
Designing a raid instance for blues and greens seems like a waste of development time to me.
FemaleDwarfRogue May 11th 2008 4:48AM
Is a lack of 15 other people seriously all that stop most 10 man raiders from getting to T6 content? I don't think it is tbh.
Yes there will be a 10 man ice crown but it's still gonna take some serious raiding time (notice I didn't say skill before I get flamed) to get in the door. If you are doing 1-2 kara raids per week at the moment there's a good chance you'll never see Arthas and the hardcore's can keep their epeens.
To see 10 man Arthas you are still gonna have to 'go a bit hardcore'. 15 men less doesn't mean easy mode (and infact single deaths are more likely to mean wipes which adds to difficulty). Expect to put some hours in :)
I like the change and it will mean more people (but not everyone) will see the key fights of WotLK - which is great.
Now you have to decide - are you going to go 10 man or 25 man in the expansion... ;)
SpaceDog May 11th 2008 5:36AM
I swear everyone on the O-boards is a masochist, determined not to let this game improve further for the most petty of reasons.
They will make this work, and it will be fun, and loads of us will have a shot at doing it.
Gah!
I'm glad to see there are a lot more sensible people here though.
Bloodelfer May 11th 2008 6:03AM
as i have said before THE MORE CASUAL = THE MORE MONEY BLIZZ GETS
4STR4STALeatherBelt May 11th 2008 6:11AM
Warcraft Lore has nothing to do with WoW anymore. I don't like it, but it's just the way it is.
Personally I've seen all the content at 40 man and 25 man level, I really don't want to bother again in WotLK as it's just too time consuming. Does that mean I shouldn't be able to see the content? No. This idea is one of Blizzard's only decent ones for quite sometime.
Chops May 11th 2008 12:46PM
I totally agrree with what Blizz has done, it is a great way to manage the hardcore and casual players together and seems very fair to me. As for the lore aspect, i think it is ok for Arthas to be both 10 and 25manned because if you think about it, our characters are amazing! we hav killed and defeated countless enemies and bosses, from quests instances and raids, we are the heroes of azeroth and someones gotta kill people like the lich king so who better than the people who just killed (insert name of final boss of raid before lich king) it makes sense to me.
Simon May 11th 2008 6:42AM
LOL, hardcore whiners and wanna-be lore nerds ... FUNNY STUFF
If you care one bit about lore, you couldn't do 50% of the quests in WoW, and let's not speak about killing the same big ass honchos every week over and over again. As a lore nerd you would have to play a level 10 grunt or something, everything else is far from being a lore-nerd, it hypocrisy at the best.
And "hardcore" palyers whining about "casuals" being able to do the same content they do with less effort and less reward. Please spare me, if you want some real accomplishment, why don't you try to build a career in the real world and stop playing games? As in every game, there will be thousands more people to be the same "heros" you are, some play it "easy", some "normal", some "nightmare", but they are all going to see the final boss and kill him just the same. Whining about you being so "superior" and about you "deserving" more is just laughable.
rwhiteruff May 11th 2008 7:15AM
I for one welcome our 10-man raid progression overlords and look forward to kicking Arthas' frozen behind. Lore really has nothing to do with how many epic heroes can take out Nerzhul. That's just the ancient "who would win in a fight?" bs that nerds always go on about.
There's a certain conciliation made to gameplay over suspension of disbelief at all levels of the game. In what way, shape, or form does it make sense for you to go kill the "War Chief" in Shattered Halls, then go back to your nearby faction outpost and purchase a key that allows you to go RIGHT BACK into Shattered Halls to do it again, only now it's MUCH TOUGHER and the loot is MUCH BETTER?
Zero, in-character. For a game, it makes perfect sense.
This is what the 10- and 25-man raid progression separation is. Perfect game sense.
Will 25-man raid recruitment suffer in the new paradigm? Maybe. Time will tell. But ask yourself this: Do you really want someone in your raid group who would really rather be doing 10-man raids anyway if only they could see the content?
Ryu May 11th 2008 7:28AM
Of course the 10 mans are going to be easy.
Casuals want to see the same end game content as the hardcore but are unwilling or unable to put in the same time and effort to learn and practice the strats, get on and be socialable with more than 9 people etc etc.
The only way this can happen is to have easy 10 man gimme pugable dungeons. They cannot be just as hard as the 25 man equivalents as that would defeat the whole point making end game content accessable to this section of the player base. The only incentive left for the 25 man raider is that his additonal effort for doing the harder version of the instance will be better loot.
Grammaton Sep 5th 2008 7:58PM
I look at this whole 10 & 25 man versions of the fight in the same vein as the heroic difficulty for the Burning Crusade 5-mans. I don't see people crying about the lower level accessibility of those instances and then being able to go back at lvl 70 for the ultimate challenge and better gear drops. So why should they be crying about this? Because the Lich King is a major figure in the lore? And? Archimonde is even greater (greater than Illidan as well, for that matter), yet I don't see people crying about downing him in 25-man CoT:Hyjal and then still having Illidan as a greater challenge in the raid progression.
As others have previously pointed out, by the time your character is ready for this encounter, he or she will be far stronger than most of the figures in the current lore for the game. Sure, your character won't get added to the lore for its own sake, but then the lore is simply a story backdrop for what you're getting on about.
In WC3, Arthas was physically much WEAKER as a Death Knight and had to rely more heavily on reinforcement units. It irked me to no end. Illidan, on the other hand, was a pure badass in melee. So, then, where is the lore pointing you concerning Arthas defeating Illidan in single combat?
The whole concept of the 40-man raid was great for creating an epic feel in the early days of the game. It worked for a while. But the complications of 40-man raiding far outweigh the benefits. That was pretty central to Blizzard deciding to drop down to the 25-man cap for Burning Crusade raids. It was done to satisfy the state of the player base and appeal to a much broader range of players. It works. But even so, the state of the game is not the same across all servers. The longer established servers may still be able to whip out a 40-man, but newer servers with smaller and less cohesive populations are still struggling to get the 25-mans filled. That means that the vast majority of those players are essentially cut off from the type of progression that those more established servers enjoy.
The guys at blizzard aren't dumb, they understand the state of the game far better than the majority of us. We are paying them to do so, by the way. So if the design team feels the need to trim down the leetness factor of the large-scale raids and tighten the tolerances for the lvl 80 raids in order to make the game more accessible and appealing to the majority of the player base, then why would you complain about it? Go do some dailies or something...
Zedius May 11th 2008 7:47AM
This is simply my opinion:
Some people here are smart. Really smart.
We started as a army against the Elemental and Dragonite forces in "Vanilla-WoW". Then we got more and more powerful and became a "elite force" in the army. Now, we have become the most powerful men and women amongst the Alliance.
We are the new generation of heroes, working hand in hand with Sylvanas, Tirion and so on.
About the encounter:
Do you honestly think it will be us against him only? This encounter will contain lore characters and armies to help us. I hope we'll stand at the mighty top of Ice-crown and be able to look down, and under this mighty pillar of ice you can see the new Order of the Silverhand battle the Scourge while you - the elite, the best of the best - take down the big, bad leader. Then when Arthas is at about 85-80% HP, Tirion joins in since the men and women down there have taken the spire, but are still battling the undead armies.
See what I mean? Huge battle, hundreds of meters down you can see armies clashing together. It's dramatic music (You know, like opera-singing style and hard epic music) and snow. Arthas laughs and says something that happened earlier in the questline when you encountered him and then he attacks. Anyway:
Then at 65% the Silverhand starts to fall back. At 50-45% Sylvanas armies comes and makes the Scourge fall back once again. Sylvanas joins in at 30%. At 10%, Arthas unleashes his true power and gets some more Hp, up to perhaps 50%.
Then you fight him, and suddenly (With some sort of artifact) ghosts starts to appear. Uther, Terenas, Muradin and so on. And with their help, and with the help of Sylvanas and Tirion, we manage to beat him!
Okay, I got carried away, but this would be a cool encounter. I bet Blizzard will let some characters help us. Sylvanas is a must. SO CHANGE HER DAMN MODEL!
Andrew May 11th 2008 8:19AM
I'll be disappointed now if it's not as awesome as you just described it. But my bet is on Blizzard not being half as creative or epic about it: Arthas, alone, in a big chamber.