Is it really OK for Arthas to be 10-mannable?

So one of the most exciting announcements from the recent flurry of news about WoTLK, at least from my point of view, is the that there will be 10-man and 25-man versions of every raid. Think about that for a moment. Yeah, that's right. That means that you and 9 other friends will be able to scale the heights of Icecrown Glacier and topple Arthas himself from his frigid throne.
This has more than a few people worried.
The worries are many. Will this mean people won't want to do the the 25-mans when they can have the same experience in a 10-man? Mike pointed out in one of our conversations in WoW Insider's secret lair that we were originally told that even 40 level 80s wouldn't be able to take down Arthas. Some are concerned that we really shouldn't be able to take down one of the most powerful entities in Azeroth, and possibly in the Universe, with only 10 people. I think all of these worries are addressable.
What about the Lore?
There's actually been some telegraphing that we'd get some type of change similar to this due to lore reasons for a while. Ever since last year, Blizzard has been talking about making WoTLK more "personal" and making sure people at all levels of the game have a chance to invest themselves in the lore by giving them a chance to interact with major figures such as Arthas. They've already started applying this philosophy in game with the Magister's Terrace, where five people can take down Kael'thas Sunstrider.
In that case, the 10-man/25-man split makes a lot of sense. Letting more people have a crack at Arthas and participating in his downfall makes a huge amount of sense and should make the story a lot more personal for a lot more players. Beyond that, even if you are interacting with Arthas all through the whole leveling process, if you're also shut out from taking the guy down at the end, it might end up being a bit of a buzzkill.
Beyond that, we should realize that the lore power-level of an encounter doesn't always directly match up to the game difficulty rating. After all, as Drysc points out, the Gnomes were chased out of their city by a level 28 that could be soloed by a single Ironforge Guard, and the Trolls by a level 10 and his level 7-9 minions. By a similar token, you can bring a conspiracy that spans half the Eastern Kingdoms and threatens to topple Stormwind to its knees with a group of 5 people of levels 17-20 or so. If all that isn't epic enough for you, 5 level 70s can take down a malevolent force from beyond our reality with the power to destroy worlds with a mere yawn in the Shadow Labyrinth. I could go on all day, but it's pretty obvious that number and level of people required to defeat an encounter doesn't always have an impact on the exact significance of the encounter from a lore or storytelling perspective.
Does this mean it will be too easy?
Another concern of people is that defeating Arthas shouldn't be as easy as jaunting into Karazhan with a bunch of people in assorted dungeon blues and clearing the place in 3 hours. Drysc offers a reality check on that as well. All 10-mans will not be created equal. Even today, there are groups who can clear Karazhan but still struggle with Zul'aman, or at the least have never managed a complete timed clear of the place. Similarly, you shouldn't expect to be able to simply waltz into 10-man Icecrown Glacier, kill Arthas, and go home. Yes, you'll no longer have to coordinate 25 people, but you'll still have to coordinate 10 people, and the dungeons will be constructed with a definite progression in mind. 10-man Icecrown Glacier is sure to be much harder than 10-man Naxxramas, even more so than Zul'aman is tougher than Karazhan. 10-man will still be a challenging progression in its own right.
Does this mean no-one will want to run the 25-man?
Honestly, our own Matthew "The Vykrul" Rossi has probably covered this about as well as I ever could. There's still plenty of incentives for the 25-man raider. There's likely to be bigger challenges from the bosses and more opportunities for more classes. In addition, there's definitely going to be better gear in the 25-mans. This has been confirmed. And since Arena gear will probably still need ratings in Season 5, more people will probably return to raiding as a way to get the best gear -- and I'd bet quite a bit that if Frostmourne is a drop, It won't be coming from the 10-man version of the instance.
Does this mean they went back on their word?
Sure, at one point some CM or Developer said that you'd probably have to have at least 40 level 100 characters to defeat Arthas or something like that, but... things change. Drysc makes a good argument about it -- A Good game company should be adapting and changing. The idea should be to make a game that is fun and accessible to as many people as possible. If this means that you need to make a few changes to earlier decisions or design philosophies, that is something to be celebrated and encouraged, not maligned. In this case, Blizzard is looking to open up the story and encounters of the game in a way that allows a much larger portion of the player base to experience them and have a feeling of investment in the game world. That is a good thing.
Final Thoughts
I really do applaud this move by Blizzard. It's a gutsy one, but one I ultimately see as being beneficial for the game as a whole, at all levels. They're allowing more people to invest themselves into the lore and story of Northrend, the Scourge, and the game world in general. 25-manners will have more challenging encounters and better loot to look forward to, while 10-manners can progress through the story as well, challenging themselves at their own level. Wrath of the Lich King should evolve World of Warcraft into an even more enjoyable game for everyone, and that is certainly in part thanks to innovations like the new 10 and 25-man split.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Blizzard, Instances, Expansions, Raiding, Lore, Bosses
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Reader Comments (Page 6 of 7)
roland May 19th 2008 11:08PM
Zedius, man, you should apply as raid designer with Blizzard as soon as possible. I hope the encounter is only half as great as you've described it.
And yes, I played Magister's Terrace exactly twice. Once regular, once heroic. While the artwork is great and the first bosses are kinda cool, the Kael fight is a big letdown. This is the guy that needed 25 well geared and skilled people to be taken down? Please.
Suzaku May 11th 2008 7:26PM
"Is it really OK for Arthas to be 10-mannable?"
Hell yes it is. I want to see this encounter. Screw elitist raiders, I pay Blizzard the same $15 a month, and I've been waiting for this since WC3.
Also, levels and party sizes have nothing to do with anything lorewise. Dar'khan Drathir was more than a match for the combined efforts of Sylvanas, Lor'themar, Halduron, and a bunch of dragons. And yet he can be easily soloed by a level 20-ish warlock in BC.
Jessierockeron May 29th 2008 3:16AM
lol, same 15$ a month, that's funny and a great argument (I'm not being sarcastic, I'm serious).
Jamal May 11th 2008 8:31AM
well i fucking want to take him down with 9 other people so shut up lol! we dont want blizzard to change there minds!
stroodle May 11th 2008 8:46AM
Shouldn't everyone complaining about 10 mans being "easy mode" or casuals not wanting to put as much "work" into raiding, instead be petitioning to have 40 man raids brought back? because it seems to me that YOU don't want to put as much work in as the people who used to get 39 other raiders together to down bosses.
Personally, having done 40, 25 and 10 man raids, I enjoy the "heroic" feel of the more personal 10 man encounters, where I feel like my 10% contribution to the kill carries more weight than 4% of the raids compostion (25 man). Why do you constantly complain about the number of people that it should take to kill a boss anyway. I won't repeat things that have already been said in length, but nowhere in fantasy have more than a few heroes destroyed a great evil. Unless you want to reroll a level 1 peon, drop all your "sick" gear to pick up a pitchfork, and gather with thousands of others for a large scale battle. would that make it feel more epic for you? Get off your high horse, and realize that blizzard is trying to make the game and its lore more accessible for all types of players, other than just the elitist jagoffs that feel the need to bitch about anything that allows people with less time and dare i say, probably more skill, to play a storyline that fits with their playstyle, schedule, and idea of fun. So stop being jealous, plz.
mcsaeki May 11th 2008 12:03PM
Wow. Y'know, the idea if getting a hundred level ones with pitchforks to down, say, VC sounds like a hell of a lot of fun! I might have to do some recruiting on Moon Guard!
Thanks!
PeeWee May 11th 2008 8:45AM
Has anyone stopped to consider the fact that the Lich King maybe not is as powerful as he tries to be? Take a look at the Wizard of Oz, turning out to be a small man behind a curtain.
We and our characters are not all-knowing. We live under the impression that the Lich King is all-powerful. What if he is not?
Go kill him, I say.
Bobbert May 11th 2008 9:08AM
Everyone forgets that the Ashbringer will play in with WoTLK. Do you all remember Tales of the Past III? Thrall, Jaina, Saurfang, they were all nothing more than side characters that helped the Ashbringer take out Arthas. They didn't get any hits in, but they sure as hell helped him get the final punch in.
Alaw May 11th 2008 9:14AM
If these additions bug you, there's a simple fix: DON'T DO THEM WHEN YOU PLAY.
Is your happiness is derived from what other people are allowed to do?
Do you feel that you can't be as happy as possible if someone does something differently than you?
If the answer to either question is yes, I suggest you seek counseling because you're not well adjusted.
Save your vitriol and outrage for something important, like the economy or the war.
Kemek May 11th 2008 9:42AM
when it comes right down to it, blizzard cares a lot less what the 25 man elitist raiders have to say than the 10 man crowd.
Why? Because it's the more casual players who are their bread and butter. They made the game's success what it is.
Spending tons of money to placate 5% of the people playing (and seeing) expensive content is silly and doesn't help retain the bulk of more casual players.
This is simple math folks. So you might as well stop whining and learn to deal with it.
rwhiteruff May 11th 2008 10:42AM
Actually Blizzard cares very much about 25-man raiders as well. If they didn't, do you really think they'd put in all the effort and development time into creating an entire parallel 25-man raid progression?
This cuts both ways. Blizzard's trying their best to make as many people as possible happy, and I think the new paradigm is a good solution.
I don't understand why there's so much hostility at work here. Everybody's going to get a shot at doing what they like (except perhaps those longing for the 40-man raids). More options are available to everyone. PvP, casual, hardcore, middle-of-the-road... everybody gets a piece of the pie.
If it's exclusivity you long for, well... I don't think that's in Blizzard's game-plan. The reasons for that should be obvious.
Kemek May 11th 2008 12:31PM
i never said they didn't care. I said they cared "less."
As any smart business would when looking at their customers, they care less about the minority than the majority. Yes they still care, but every move makes each patch shows they are looking at their data and finding they need to make the game more accessible to the masses. If they can please the hardcores at the same time great, but they aren't going to any longer exclude the majority of paying customers from seeing content they have created.
bluebottleblues May 11th 2008 11:11AM
I hope the benefits of 25 manning instances opposed to 10 manning them will be sufficent that 25 man raiding guilds don't decide to slim down on thier members because "it will be easier."
I also don't want increased competition for raid spots if 10 manning raiding guilds became more pratical than 25 manning.
There are benefits for the smaller guilds who never had 25 competent players online and a good raid setup could be formed. But it's also worthwhile considering the other types of guilds who aren't neccerly 'hardcore' but enjoy getting phat lewts.
Dean May 11th 2008 12:42PM
The only people that will stop raiding 25-man dungeons and do 10-man dungeons with lesser loot are the ones that didn't really want to be doing 25-mans to start with. This is a GOOD thing. Yeah, it'll make recruitment for 25-man guilds a bit harder, it'll cause some upturning before things settle down again (as with the transition from 40-man to 25-man) which I sympathize with, but those saying "this'll make recruitment harder" actually mean "we'll no longer be able to recruit people that never wanted to do 25-mans in the first place, but had no choice". It's a good thing.
This also makes sense for Blizzard. There's two groups of people that play WoW. I'm not using 'hardcore' and 'casual', but rather you have your dedicated MMO players, that have been raiding since Ultima Online or Everquest, have played a load of MMOs and make up a big proportion of the high-level raiders. Then you have people that came to WoW from WC3 or just because they heard it was fun. It's another video game for them. Some of them have progressed to 'hardcore' raiding too.
But the thing Blizzard have clearly spotted, is that that first group, they're all getting ready to up-sticks and head over to WAR if that turns out well. Moving from MMO to MMO is what they do. They've had thier 3-years with WoW, moving on. Should that happen, the number of high-end raiders will fall. And getting those guys back won't happen until WoW 2. So catering for the other demographic, your non-MMO player that treats WoW like any other game, is a good idea.
Eternalpayn May 11th 2008 2:09PM
Everybody is acting like "I can clear Kara, I'll be able to down Arthas... It's the same progression, will take the same amount of time and effort, just less people."
Solex May 11th 2008 9:24PM
Wow is a lot about elitism, arena takes more "skill" than bg's and 25 mans are harder than 10's and while yes ZA is a harder 10 man than say kara, the logistics of coordinating 25 people to do specific tasks compared to 10 will always make an encounter harder and I personally don't buy into the new casaul video game model. Essentially the whole 10 and 25 is just that a way to let the people who play 20 minutes a day a chance to see everything that someone who's dedicated more time will.
I saw an interview somewhere saying they probably wouldn't consider it but one idea was that the final bosses of the raids simply wouldn't be in the 10 mans and I really liked this idea or something to that effect. It kind of makes me cringe to think Gangstamax the casaul raider from Tell your sister thanks is going to roll Arthas. Just make is so you fight Arthas and you "beat" him and he says "You were stronger than I thought but now we're done" he shatters the floor and you and your nine pals fall into his treasury or something pick up your loot and be on your way. Then when you come back to do the 25 man you finally get to truly kill him.
Its not so much a casual vs hardcore thing, or not to the extent I make it out to be but at the same time is it wrong to strive for? That's the goal right, to be the decked out armored hero of sorts, not everyone can be superman but that doesn't mean you're not in the justice league. Terrible metaphor, apologies.
stroodle May 12th 2008 9:33AM
Solex, i noticed a contradiction in your piece in the first few sentences i just wanted to point out. You say that arena takes more skill than BGs, but coordinating a 25 man requires more skill than a 10 man. Let's think about this. 2v2 or even 5v5 arena requires more "skill" from the individual players involved because you are part of a smaller team where your contribution to that team requires you to carry more weight in order to succeed, correct? I mean in AV, you could put someone on follow and go get a sandwich and it wouldn't affect your raid as much as say, doing that in a 2v2 arena match. Now use that same logic for the 10 man vs. 25 man arguement. When part of a 25 man, your contribution to the raid is mathematically less than being part of a 10 or even 5 man group. So even though the raid bosses have way more health and do lots of "stuff" in the 25 man raids, doesn't mean that you and your 24 other "well coordinated" buddies (which is a feat in its own right, to get 25 people to listen to directions, i'll give it that) are any more skilled INDIVIDUALLY than people doing 10 mans. All it says is that you prefer raids with larger numbers of people, possibly to compensate for a lack of......well i won't go there.
Solex May 16th 2008 1:26AM
No actually its not a contradiction, its an attitude. 1. If you notice they're doing world wide arena tournaments not bg tournaments. 2. Unless you're running a premade, pug bg's its just a bunch of people honor farming anyway. 3. Dick size jokes... awesome seriously. 4. If you haven't noticed the arena pvpers are some of the most arrogant and pretentious ones to play the game. Skilled individually? Have you ever done Kael? 10 mans are fine but to think that they deserve the same treatment as 25's is a bit absurd. Beyond skill what about sense of scale? What looks like a more epic encounter kael or zul jin? arch or prince? nightbane or fel myst? Its always fun when you go against a boss and say "Wow are you sure this isn't a 40 man?" Because of difficulty or size or what have you. Besides by your logic you should get amazing loot for 5 mans because there's even more importance placed on the individual in 10 mans so we should do a 5 man ice crown and start passing out frost mournes.
Getting past this though, honestly they need to separate the two of them, I don't know about you but I don't want to do fifteen of the 10 man's just to get into the 25's. As is stands they said 10 mans will be a tier behind, I'll assume 10 mans are t7 and 25 are t8, so it would make sense you're going to have to do the 10 mans to get gear to hit the 25 man's, it's actually like an attunement all over again -_- I could be entirely wrong though. All I know is casuals are well and good and they can have the content spoon fed to them but please please please don't let them kill Arthas.
Matt May 11th 2008 3:17PM
This does nothing but cause less urgency, and allow for more burnout.
yay the casual crowd can see everything, but what happens when they do? they get bored, burnt out, done...there will be nothing keeping them here...i know ALOT of 10 man groups in Kara, and doing the 1st couple bosses in ZA strive for 25 man raids to see the content, that is what is keeping them here, and excited about wow...giving the upper tier content to all will just bring a soft dull end to the MMO known as WOW, people will lose interest, and eventually move on to another game, the challenge and prestige you get from obtaining a certain title, or set of gear will be long lost, and forgotten...this is a very very bad idea...
slimj091 May 13th 2008 4:33PM
so wait..getting home from work and running to your computer so you won't get yelled at for being 10 minutes early for the raid.. then after wiping for 6 hours you have to go out and farm gold to pay for your repairs and consumables for the next night because your guild has a policy of "provide your own crap but still donate everything to the guildbank so the officers don't have to!". then finally after it's all done you have a half hour to get some sleep before you have to be into work the next day?
your saying that wouldn't burn someone out?