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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsIs it really OK for Arthas to be 10-mannable?
by Daniel Whitcomb 
May 10th 2008 at 8:00PM
So one of the most exciting announcements from the recent flurry of news about WoTLK, at least from my point of view, is the that there will be 10-man and 25-man versions of every raid. Think about that for a moment. Yeah, that's right. That means that you and 9 other friends will be able to scale the heights of Icecrown Glacier and topple Arthas himself from his frigid throne.
This has more than a few people worried.
The worries are many. Will this mean people won't want to do the the 25-mans when they can have the same experience in a 10-man? Mike pointed out in one of our conversations in WoW Insider's secret lair that we were originally told that even 40 level 80s wouldn't be able to take down Arthas. Some are concerned that we really shouldn't be able to take down one of the most powerful entities in Azeroth, and possibly in the Universe, with only 10 people. I think all of these worries are addressable.
What about the Lore?
There's actually been some telegraphing that we'd get some type of change similar to this due to lore reasons for a while. Ever since last year, Blizzard has been talking about making WoTLK more "personal" and making sure people at all levels of the game have a chance to invest themselves in the lore by giving them a chance to interact with major figures such as Arthas. They've already started applying this philosophy in game with the Magister's Terrace, where five people can take down Kael'thas Sunstrider.
In that case, the 10-man/25-man split makes a lot of sense. Letting more people have a crack at Arthas and participating in his downfall makes a huge amount of sense and should make the story a lot more personal for a lot more players. Beyond that, even if you are interacting with Arthas all through the whole leveling process, if you're also shut out from taking the guy down at the end, it might end up being a bit of a buzzkill.
Beyond that, we should realize that the lore power-level of an encounter doesn't always directly match up to the game difficulty rating. After all, as Drysc points out, the Gnomes were chased out of their city by a level 28 that could be soloed by a single Ironforge Guard, and the Trolls by a level 10 and his level 7-9 minions. By a similar token, you can bring a conspiracy that spans half the Eastern Kingdoms and threatens to topple Stormwind to its knees with a group of 5 people of levels 17-20 or so. If all that isn't epic enough for you, 5 level 70s can take down a malevolent force from beyond our reality with the power to destroy worlds with a mere yawn in the Shadow Labyrinth. I could go on all day, but it's pretty obvious that number and level of people required to defeat an encounter doesn't always have an impact on the exact significance of the encounter from a lore or storytelling perspective.
Does this mean it will be too easy?
Another concern of people is that defeating Arthas shouldn't be as easy as jaunting into Karazhan with a bunch of people in assorted dungeon blues and clearing the place in 3 hours. Drysc offers a reality check on that as well. All 10-mans will not be created equal. Even today, there are groups who can clear Karazhan but still struggle with Zul'aman, or at the least have never managed a complete timed clear of the place. Similarly, you shouldn't expect to be able to simply waltz into 10-man Icecrown Glacier, kill Arthas, and go home. Yes, you'll no longer have to coordinate 25 people, but you'll still have to coordinate 10 people, and the dungeons will be constructed with a definite progression in mind. 10-man Icecrown Glacier is sure to be much harder than 10-man Naxxramas, even more so than Zul'aman is tougher than Karazhan. 10-man will still be a challenging progression in its own right.
Does this mean no-one will want to run the 25-man?
Honestly, our own Matthew "The Vykrul" Rossi has probably covered this about as well as I ever could. There's still plenty of incentives for the 25-man raider. There's likely to be bigger challenges from the bosses and more opportunities for more classes. In addition, there's definitely going to be better gear in the 25-mans. This has been confirmed. And since Arena gear will probably still need ratings in Season 5, more people will probably return to raiding as a way to get the best gear -- and I'd bet quite a bit that if Frostmourne is a drop, It won't be coming from the 10-man version of the instance.
Does this mean they went back on their word?
Sure, at one point some CM or Developer said that you'd probably have to have at least 40 level 100 characters to defeat Arthas or something like that, but... things change. Drysc makes a good argument about it -- A Good game company should be adapting and changing. The idea should be to make a game that is fun and accessible to as many people as possible. If this means that you need to make a few changes to earlier decisions or design philosophies, that is something to be celebrated and encouraged, not maligned. In this case, Blizzard is looking to open up the story and encounters of the game in a way that allows a much larger portion of the player base to experience them and have a feeling of investment in the game world. That is a good thing.
Final Thoughts
I really do applaud this move by Blizzard. It's a gutsy one, but one I ultimately see as being beneficial for the game as a whole, at all levels. They're allowing more people to invest themselves into the lore and story of Northrend, the Scourge, and the game world in general. 25-manners will have more challenging encounters and better loot to look forward to, while 10-manners can progress through the story as well, challenging themselves at their own level. Wrath of the Lich King should evolve World of Warcraft into an even more enjoyable game for everyone, and that is certainly in part thanks to innovations like the new 10 and 25-man split.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Blizzard, Instances, Expansions, Raiding, Lore, Bosses
Reader Comments (Page 7 of 7)
Matt May 11th 2008 3:21PM
same effort?
YEAH OK, thats like saying getting a 1850 rating in arena is the same effort as farming honor in AV.
to build a good 25 man team, or arena team, requires ALOT of effort. To get 10 for kara, takes very little time, to get 25 for gruul, or mag takes alot more skill, cooperation, and teamwork. it just does...
Wynn May 11th 2008 5:49PM
Matt:
Nobody disputes that the logistics involved in forming a 25-man raid are more complex. In fact, you're making the point for the people in favor of this change. Skill and dedication should dictate how far you get, not whether you can get 24 other people in a raid.
You insist that "casuals" want all the rewards with none of the effort, but here's a question I pose to you; should the thick of the expansion's endgame content -after all, it IS named Wrath of the Lich King- be a reward THAT isolated from the majority of the player base? If an expansions deals with a central heroic figure, does endgame really need to be as exclusive as it has been so far? Should players be content to leave their storyline unresolved because of reasons external to the game?
Look at current state of affairs... TBC is "ending", and a new layer of content is being stacked on top. Yet, look at the overall progression. How many guilds have reached Karazhan? How many have killed Illidan?
I don't think anyone is advocating for rewards without effort; but 25-man raids are logistically complex for a plethora of reasons, the majority of which lie outside of the game. When we talk about democratizing content, it doesn't mean removing skill or complexity from the equation; it's reducing the amount of factors that could keep a competent, driven player from seeing the content. I think this initiative from Blizzard is a great way to do just that.
And finally, as an aside: I don't mind that you're against this idea; but stop generalizing and assuming that everyone who's in favor of it is a "noob", a "scrub" or somehow "undeserving" of the content (and that last term is a problematic one, but that's antoher discussion for another time). There are very valid reasons on both sides of this argument.
Suzaku May 11th 2008 8:05PM
Casual players don't want things to be less difficult, they want them to be more accessible. And, I can guarantee you that most casual players aren't interested in your precious rewards -- their interest is purely in the content and lore.
I think it could easily be argued that raid size has nothing to do with skill, and if your argument is that most of the challenge in 25-man raids comes from organizing 25 people and getting them to follow directions, then it's not even the raid itself which is difficult.
Blizzard could easily develop content that is both a challenging and rewarding experience for 10 players, without artificially inflating the difficulty with large groups and time commitments.
berserkerlxl May 11th 2008 3:46PM
yes, as long as the gear in 25-man is WAYYYYYYY better than the gear in 10-man.
Riplash May 11th 2008 4:59PM
Personally, I don't like this idea. Altough I like the idea of more 10 man content.. part of the fun of being in a big/ hardcore raiding guild is doing things that the casual gamers would never be able to do.
slimj091 May 13th 2008 4:47PM
even if it rips your soul from your being piece by piece
Bart May 11th 2008 6:13PM
As an outsider to WoW looking in, this whole thread and others like it amaze me. The fact that people care so much about what seems a meaningless thing is a testament to the addictiveness of the game Blizzard have created. I swear many of these posts border on the psychotic. Take a step back and think about what you're thinking for a sec.
Suzaku May 11th 2008 8:05PM
Well, I'll give you a better idea of what this is like, and why people care. To compare it to non-MMORPG games, Arthas is like the final boss. His raid instance is the final dungeon. All of the major plot points reach their climax there. Specifically, the major plot elements which started in Warcraft III, and have been touched on by a lot of quests and things along the way in WoW.
Now, it used to be that, in order to fight the enter the final dungeon and fight the final boss, you had to organize a large group of 25 people, create a schedule, dedicate a lot of time to play (coordinating this time with the schedule), and slowly work your way through other dungeons, and into the final dungeon.
So, casual people are often upset that they can't access to content which houses most of the well-known story characters and plot developments, and so they tend to resent raiders. Raiders, on the other hand, are often happy with the fact that they're the only ones able to see this sort of thing, and resent casuals for trying to get stuff "ezmode".
The fact is, most casual players don't want the game to be easy, *just more accessible*. They want to be able to play the game without having to coordinate schedules with 24 (or, God forbid, 39) other people, or dedicate a huge amount of time in single sittings to complete something.
Including 10-man versions of raids make them much more accessible to casual players. Raiders don't like it, because they complain just about any time the casual players get to do something that they used to have all to themselves.
Kevin May 15th 2008 7:40AM
If this were a non MMO game your character would be a demigod. Just the sheer number of random Humanoids you've killed should count for something (I'm pretty sure wherever the murloc Hague is they are trying my AOEadin in abstentia for genocide lol). Then throw in the bosses (And most bosses are a lot closer in lore terms to Arthas then level would indicate, VC and Arugal could easily take part in an Icecrown raid), the quests (Think how many questgivers in various zones have told you their lives were so much safer now), and PvP (because fighting in a war probably counts for something) and it's not entirely unrealistic to consider 10 of us killing Arthas. Also it makes it more heroic when it's you and your close companions and allies doing the fighting, not you just being in the regiment that took him down.
That having been said here's my conception of what would be an awesome way to do this: have a full on battle go down as the raid. Not during the raid, as the raid. The whole time you have to hack through trash in the heat of battle, sometimes retreating, sometimes supporting NPC's, sometimes attacking bosses. And Arthas doesn't just sit there at the end, he's moving through the battle killing NPC's, summoning more of his own, and fighting your group and others. That would be epic no matter how many people you send.
User 1138 May 11th 2008 11:42PM
A solution is easy to imagine, What if the Lich king Makes a last second escape [2-3% health] with some sort of Real time event, Leaving a Chest of loot unguarded in the ten man version? So the Lich King live to face your 25 man team...where he will hit harder, Enrage quicker, Have more health, have more adds, blah blah blah.....
"Will this mean people won't want to do the the 25-mans" No, and to believe or think so is foolish. Hard Core Raiders are all about loot, point their Raids in the direction of the greatest loot and watch them go....then when they see the rest of us walking around Dalaran in out 10man raiding gear they /laugh.
As for the Lore and how and why 10 or 25 man teams of level 80's can take on the Lich King; Toward the end of Frozen throne Malfurion states that Arthas will eventually begin losing his power...it's only a matter of time. It was recently revealed that player character Death Knights have broken free of the Lich Kings will.....Times up...he's beginning to Lose his powers. He's not so omnipotent, and i would be surprised if this is a major story line in the expansion.
slimj091 May 13th 2008 4:47PM
"Toward the end of Frozen throne Malfurion states that Arthas will eventually begin losing his power...it's only a matter of time."
1. Varimathras said that.. not malfurion.
2. he said that because at the time the lich king was losing his power because of the illidans attacks.
3. when Ner'zhul and Arthas melded minds their power increased exponentially.
4. he's had 6-8 years (depending on wether or not you include the time passed since launch) to become even more powerfull than he was at the end of TFT.
Asgaroth May 13th 2008 10:47PM
Ok...I don't understand why the story procession cant be the same. Its apparent that the 10 man and 20-man raids cater to very different groups. Surely, with the 25-man raid dungeons there are somethings that will be added and tweaked to ensure that the experience you have will be worthwhile and more meaningful. Kind of like Shattered halls / Sethekk Halls -and their heroic counterparts. Similar stories, with some added bonuses. Naturally, the 25-man raids will need to have some additional gimmicks to remain a challenging experience....for example... The Kael'thas fight in TK has many more waves of battle than Magister's terrace. No doubt, having the experience in TK was helpful for fighting Kael'Thas in MGT.
Atheira May 12th 2008 12:10AM
In the ultimate ending, since Blizzard has progressed to different raid sizes, why not have the ability to enter Icecrown as a full 40 man raid, hardest content out there with the best loot possible? It would satisfy nearly every raiding crowd playing WoW currently, and allow the more reserved guilds a chance to really put their guild to the test. I'll get flamed for this, I am sure, but think about it. 10, 25, and 40 man versions of Icecrown would be truly epic. It's going to be the toughest encounter yet (at least I am sure we all hope it will be), why not throw in the old 40 man? Yes only 2% or so of the population would be able to actually do it, but it offers that aspect and chance at getting gear that very few would be able to get.
4STR4STALeatherBelt May 12th 2008 4:59AM
@ 86
You're a tool. A sad tool at that. I was about to write a chunk of text about why you're wrong with your comments about the lore, then I see you made a classic "get a life lolz!!1one" post about it being a game. No shit, it's a game, you want a cookie?
Remember: Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you're a cunt.
Burkey May 13th 2008 7:53PM
I think the only thing that will really set the two apart is the loot.
I am currently raiding MH, BT and occassional forages into SWP at the moment, so I have alot of raiding "experience" too back up my opinion, and its this.
The loot from 10 man lich king should be abut the same level in quality as the stuff you'll be getting in the first 25 man raid, if say BT could be a ten man and twenty five man right now, the gear you would get from 10 man illidan should be about as good as the stuff you get from the earlly bosses of SSC - TK. Slightly better than the very first 25 man stuff sure but not one step behind the stuff 25 man raids are getting.
Its a pretty simple reason why to be honest, if u could get gear too kill the first end bosses (azgalor archimonde sharahz illidari and illidan) from a 10 man black temple/ hyjal, requiring gear from a 10 man gruul, maggy, serpentshrine, tempest keep, you would, it would be faster, and then u can get too the boss people really wanna kill in the 25 man raids, but skip the time too get there by actually doing all of the 25 mans.
I also hope that the gear from 25 man raids looks different too that off 10 mans, certainly no different stated version of the exact same thing, and no frostmourne at all.
many people might say that I'm an elitist for thinking like this, and that couldnt be further from the truth. If I wish too spend more time, more dedication and more effort too try and eventually kill a 25 man Arthas, I would like something too set me apart from the people that went in and killed him in the still very hard but easier too get too version.
I dont care much about the loot, I prefer the intruitive boss designs that wow has, which just cant be done with only 10 people, such as azgalors 1 by 1 killing of raid members as an example, would never work with just 10 men even if it did happen 2.5 times less, the way 25 man raid team members compliment each other is much different to that of a 10 man raid member.
I think this is a great idea if implemented properly, both crowds of players are given there content, if you just like the roleplaying element of killing the lich king, you can go 10 man, you'll get it, it wont cost you so much time, if you like the gameplay element of getting a good group of 25 solid players, with allot of dedication too fight a trinky boss with a hard too even work out strategy, and then implement it, your catered to too, and the only way too split them up is by loot, good loot for the 10 man hero epeener's, better loot for the difficulty epeener's.
So long as 10 man versions of these instances arnt offered for loot whores too get the 25 man version down faster i'll be happy, because its essentially spitting in the face of the people that went through each of the 25 man raids, for them to recieve the same gear as a guy that did the quicker too progress easier 10 mans then step strait into the 25 man version lat minute too get the truely uber gear.
And anyone who says "saying you should see more content based on time spent in the game is wrong when we all pay the same" your right, but its easy too forget that you should be rewarded beter for spending more time in a game, even if we pay the same, you should be alloud too kill arthas if u cant spend 10 hours a day playing etc, but you shouldnt be rewarded equally.
Rastas May 19th 2008 3:43AM
I'm actually quite glad they're doing it this way. My guild is still rather small, but the core members are rather serious about getting in to 25-mans someday. We have cleared Kara and given few good shots at ZA, but because we don't have the members we just can't go and kick Gruul's/Mag's/you-name-it's butt.
We don't have the members mostly because we're exclusively Finnish, and prefer nice people over geared people. If you have uber-leet gear, but you're still a moron, you don't have a place with us.
This all explains to why I think 10-mannable Arthas isn't such an awful thing. Even if we never got 25-man raids up @70, we can go and level up to 80 and do the new raids as 10-mans. And then when/if we're ever done with that we can go and look for 15 more great guys and do it all over again :P
Jessierockeron May 27th 2008 7:34AM
If anything, we should be given some sort of super buff that can only be used when fighting arthas/lich king that will alow us to solo him that way we can have a much more personal experience in it.
Just a thought...
Don't be mean...
Avatarofwoe Aug 8th 2008 5:03AM
I hardly think our PCs are the next generation of heroes and the counterparts of old illidan etc etc... wihtout perfect planning and setting up illidan can 1 or 2 shot any of us in one on one combat... that doesnt seem like an equal ... lol hell how many of us can one on one the TRASH in BT much less the lord of the BT himself