I agree. I don't find 25-mans enjoyable. I don't like the atmosphere it requires, and I don't like the drama it tends to bring. It's not about being easier, 10 mans are simply more fun. People can be more social, and it's less stress on the officers and players. I know some people like 25-mans more, but they have that option too, no one is taking it from them, and they're still getting the better gear anyway. More options are never a bad thing!

I agree. Everything over a 10 man, regardless of its intricacies, ceases to be about heroism and becomes a puzzle game played with 24 of your closest friends. While there are epic tales of large parties (the Odyssey, for example), most of the individual stories focus on a few of the heroes in the party, not the entire 25 or 40 or whatever-man group attacking a single target.

Warcraft is about armies. World of Warcraft should be about heroes.

"I agree. I don't find 25-mans enjoyable. I don't like the atmosphere it requires, and I don't like the drama it tends to bring. It's not about being easier, 10 mans are simply more fun. People can be more social, and it's less stress on the officers and players. I know some people like 25-mans more, but they have that option too, no one is taking it from them, and they're still getting the better gear anyway. More options are never a bad thing!"

i totally agree. but i believe the hardcore and non-hardcore raiding crowds are mis-understanding each other here.. or more like the non-hardcore's are mis-understanding the hardcores.

it's not that arthas/the lich king will be killable with a group of 10 people that gets the hardcore's panties in a bunch. it's the fact that they will not be able to look down on us non-hardcores for not being able to experience higher tier content. they feel threatened that the one thing that has taken hold of their very life will not mean much of anything anymore except to themselves (which btw is how it should be).

thats all it is... they are afraid that they will not be the gods that they once were.

@slimj:

I'm not a hardcore raider, but if I was, I understand why I (and others) would be totally pissed off. And it's not because I would no longer have an e-peen to flex.

With this new adjustment a large part of the motivation for some to participate in a 25-man raid, which is the ability to experience lore content that would otherwise be impossible, is gone. Now everyone that isn't a total loot hawk can 10-man every raid and fulfill their goals of seeing new content. Obviously, this will harm 25-man raid recruitment, which is already pretty difficult.

I would not go so far as to say that this will kill off 25-man raids forever: We do not know enough about exactly how much weaker 10-man loot will be in comparison with that of their 25-man brethren, but it almost certainly will weaken 25-raiders' ability to recruit and retain members. Once again Blizzard succumbs to the shrill keening of anti-hardcore nabobs, to the detriment of the game in general.

@Treima

"...And it's not because I would no longer have an e-peen to flex.

With this new adjustment a large part of the motivation for some to participate in a 25-man raid, which is the ability to experience lore content that would otherwise be impossible, is gone. Now everyone that isn't a total loot hawk can 10-man every raid and fulfill their goals of seeing new content....
...Once again Blizzard succumbs to the shrill keening of anti-hardcore nabobs, to the detriment of the game in general."

Actually, you hit this right on the nose as to why the change is a GOOD thing.

Basically, from what I can see, the 'hardcore raider outrage' boils down to this:

Oh Noessss!!!11!1 They're stealing our SPECIALNESSSS.....stealing our pppprecioussssss.....we wants it back! .....you neeeds usss....you filthy masses are supposed to ADORE usss.... GIVES US OUR PRECIOUSSSSSS......

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Get over yourselves already. If you're that full of yourselves to be so outraged by a sharing of the content you need to find something else to do. I don't know...take up underwater basketweaving or something...

The attitude that only a few 'deserve' to experience something in a game that everyone pays the same price for is appalling. No one said that the 10-mans would be easy, in fact, I hope they are extremely hard, and the 25-mans even harder, with spectacular loot to boot.

In reading all the different comments and articles regarding the opening up of content, extremely few places have I found anyone griping about not getting the same loot as what comes from the big raids. What I DO find is people wanting to experience the entire game they paid their subscription for.

While loot is indeed nice (who doesn't like loot?), I think you'll find that the vast majority of the player base care more about experiencing everything the game has to offer over how wonderful the loot is that they can get from something. Hell, I've seen posts in the past that people would run BT for blues if it meant they could fight Illidan in a smaller group and experience that content.

@Eh?

Awesome job taking the parts of my post that satisfy your arguments and excising the rest. Srsly. You read my post, but you clearly did not understand it, so I'll re-state:

The point I am trying to make is that 25-man raiding is going to be impacted negatively by this, because absolutely everyone that is not

A. A loot whore,
B. One who prefers 25-mans, or
C. In a guild going for first kills in 25-mans

has far less reason to join (or remain in) a raiding guild for 25-man raids. This takes away not only the quantity of people that would otherwise be willing to participate in a 25-man, but it is a safe assumption that the quality of people will decrease as well since content raiders (who will be most tempted to go to 10-mans) are generally more skilled and less likely to start drama than loot whores (who have the least reason to leave).

I am sure some guilds will devote themselves to both 10- and 25-mans in Wrath, but then another problem arises: 25 does not divide into 10 evenly. You can't have two-and-a-half guild groups that have cleared a 10-man make a 25-man group, and thus the recruiting problem encountered by guilds moving up from Kara/ZA into Gruul's/SSC is made much worse with there now being a 10-man for every 25-man. I don't even raid, and I know that the transition from 10 into 25 has been a thorn in the side of raid guilds trying to get off the ground. It would have been so much easier if Blizzard had made the player cap 20 or 30 instead of 25 in BC, but that's another argument for another day.

It's not about teh e-pen0r, or feeling special, or other asshattery that comes packaged in some of the less socially adept of raiders. It's about the sheer reality that 25-mans are going to become even more exclusive of a group. After all, why sit around and deal with 24 people shouting in Vent when you can do the exact same thing with 9? I reiterate that we do not know exactly HOW MUCH BETTER the loot from a 25-man raid will be over its 10-man counterpart, but if it is not sufficiently superior, you will see raiding (and raiders) become the elitist caricatures of themselves you seem to paint them as.