Breakfast Topic: How does a raiding guild avoid the fate of Death and Taxes?
So it's been a day or so since we first heard that Death and Taxes was disbanding, and since then, DnT member Xi- has posted a somewhat lengthy explanation as to why. In the end, the biggest reason Xi- gave is pride. Many people, he says, just stopped thinking about the raid and the guild as a whole, and were more focused on their own advancement and their own needs, and became impatient when a boss did not fall easily. When it was time to progress, many of them, even officers, would disappear and stop supporting them.
He also does get in a few Risen style digs about how none of the BC content was half as good as Naxxramas up until Sunwell Plateau, but he did manage to sound a lot more classy than Risen did.
But the point about pride, about guild members who disappear for a while and expect to pick back up where they left off when they return, and about people who never show up for progress kills, or show up and complain if the boss doesn't fall after one or two tries, that rings true with me, as I am sure it rings true with a lot of current and former MMO raiders, whether from WoW or other games.
When the bosses are falling easily and the loot is flowing, it's easy to stick with it. It's easy to come in, kill the farmed boss, get your shiny purples (or oranges), and call it a night. It's when you've wiped for the 5th time, when you're looking for that breakthrough, when everyone wants to go to bed, that you really have to learn to buckle down and break through. The guilds that can do that are the ones that get the world firsts.
But it's not easy. Generally how it happens is that you have a core of about 10, maybe 15 people who are that dedicated. Sometimes you're lucky to have more. But there's this small core of people who just keep trying, who keep focusing the goal, who don't mind having nothing to show for the night but 30 gold in repair costs and another 50 gold or so in wasted reagents, as long as everyone was focused, and as long as everyone felt connected. Once you lose that focus, it's hard for a raid guild to survive. It seems that, according to XI-, that is what happened. The dedicated core either left, or let pride get to their head, or stopped caring. Once that happened, Progression became impossible.
There's a delicate balance to be had, to be sure. This is, in the end, a game, and it's tough to expect people to keep on keeping on if they aren't having fun. But as not fun as it is to wipe, it wouldn't be much more fun if you could just steamroll new content without a fight. Beyond that, you have to remember that you are playing with 9-39 more people when you raid, people with real feeling and emotions, who dedicate themselves to each other and to taking down that boss. If you break that bond, they feel it. If you come back later and try to take advantage of a bond that you abandoned, they feel it. There's a very satisfying rush from taking down a boss that's been a pain with a group of people who have stood beside you in thick and thin, attacking again and again, working at getting better in order to bring it down. If you try to wander in and out of that fellowship, people will notice, and they won't appreciate it if you act entitled to it.
Is this type of loss really unavoidable? Sometimes I wonder if it is. For me, I've been lucky to be in some very close knit guilds, where people are as close as real-life friends -- and often actually are real life friends, having flown or driven hundreds of miles to spend time together outside the computer screen. It seems like those guilds should last forever -- the friendships from them do last a long time, and I am still friends with some I have left behind from those guilds. But even those guilds, as DnT did, fall apart. Maybe it's letting World Firsts go to your head, maybe it's losing interest in the game and moving on. Maybe it's the ennui that comes when an old expansion is conquered and a new one is some time off. Maybe it's just pride.
Is it any of these? None of these? Is the way DnT collapsed avoidable, or are raiding guilds doomed to take the fall of Pride, either from lack of progression causing people to fall away, or from pride making people arrogant, or even both at once?
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, News items, Breakfast Topics, Instances, Raiding
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 2)
Mera_LaCroisadeEcarlate May 17th 2008 10:43AM
the truth is that WoW isn't so PVE exiting has before, reducing raid from 40 man to 25 is a big mistake and that's not going to change in WOTLK, the best part of WoW is dead and I understand DnT disband.
BFail1987 May 17th 2008 10:56AM
Personally, seemed kind of dumb to me. No offense to these guys, but in the 18 months? I think thats how many where between their illidan kill and sunwell you just find better stuff to do. I don't know about the "friend" dynamic in DnT, but at least in my buddies' raiding guild there was alot of drama just about people trying to criticize one another for having talent points in something the other person didn't think that was the optimal build. I guess when you spend days spending the game you've already beat you need a break. I don't think it really phases the raiding scene much, I personally expect alot of these guys to come back together around Wrath and tear it up again. Till then enjoy the fresh air,sun and probably the age of conan
GL HF
brucimus May 17th 2008 11:53AM
lol they used Vitamin C as a farewell song? How did they last 2 years with taste like that?
Reinard May 17th 2008 12:01PM
Whiiiiiiiiiine.
It's a game, people. From the sounds of it, a lot of them were doing nothing more than being pretentious self-important jerks, or whining about how the game isn't fun or blah blah blah... :\
It's a freakin' game. You don't have the authority in it that you think you do.
Druid dude May 17th 2008 1:16PM
This Reinard clown and those like him need to go back to the WoW general forums where they belong. That crap used to not fly here at all. This place is getting more and more like WoW general every day. So to you and those like you, go away. You are not wanted here. You don't fit, you don't belong.
Eh? May 19th 2008 5:38AM
Druid dude said...
"This Reinard clown and those like him need to go back to the WoW general forums where they belong. That crap used to not fly here at all. This place is getting more and more like WoW general every day. So to you and those like you, go away. You are not wanted here. You don't fit, you don't belong."
If by not belonging you mean the ability to call a spade a spade and bring an opposing viewpoint, then I think I would rather not fit in than being just another "yes man" and blindly agree with an extremely shallow viewpoint.
I love how a comment that happens to not go along with the popular opinion of the small readership of the site (no matter how mature or immature the comment may be) elicits an equal response to the contrary. The interesting thing is that somehow one response is crap and barely fit for WoW General and the other is valid and belongs, yet they are both about on equal level with each other.
You can't have a discussion/debate without opposing viewpoints, no matter how immature and childish the debate devolves into.
Harlequinne May 17th 2008 12:10PM
DnT disbands, a member attributes the fall to people putting personal gain above the guild and progression.
Of course, actually, it all has to do with the switch from 40 man to 25 man, wellfare epics, the list goes on.
You can't blame the players, it's all the game's fault, the developers made it too easy, too hard, too many distractions, just one way to get epics, too many ways to get epics...
Reinard May 17th 2008 12:19PM
Yes. Yes, that's exactly it. How DARE more than a small percentage of Blizzard's playerbase have fun in their game!?
:\ Waaaahhh, the game doesn't cater solely to high-end raid guilds anymore, waaahhhh. If anyone quits over something like that, it just shows how truly shallow they were in the first place. If you're only in this game for status, you're missing the point.
Krianna May 17th 2008 12:56PM
Bingo!
There are now more people than ever able to experience new content-- alright, we're not all raiding Black Temple, or the Sunwell, but huge numbers of casuals have been to Kara and some even manage to clear it and move on to the trolls.
More and more people are able to upgrade their gear, as well, without requiring a job-like devotion to raiding--thus cutting through the insta-kill effect in a PVP situation.
Scoottie May 17th 2008 1:03PM
Dont be basement trolls like DnT. There is a big world outside your basement
Matt May 17th 2008 2:06PM
the welfare epics are not something that hurt this game, they are allowing some guilds to make that push into 25 man content right before a new expansion, and the BOJ vendor in the island is just another measure to help push some guilds, cut down on thier farm time on certain instances so that way they can move on. They dont have the world 1st's or anything near it, but they can experiance it. they way BC was handled was perfect, but still the crying continued. Please blizzard take a page from SOE. dont simplify the game, it will cause your player base to get bored and die off slowly. no need to fix the perfect game... Although, if you create a 10 & 25 man dungeon for each raid area, with different wings, different bosses, that would be both impressive and helpful to casuals and hardcore alike. but making the same instance easier for 10 people vs 25 is gonna kill this game, plain and simple...people will see the end of the road and go "hmm, well im done, seen the content. No real need to do the 25's...time to find a new game." this will be the end of WOW. DnT are correct about that. All the gear resets in the world wont destroy the game, but that equal raiding lore idea will.
Rich May 17th 2008 2:18PM
Except that .01% of the players ever saw naxx, .01% will see illidan; so apparently the raiding end-game ain't the be all end all of this game.
Draven May 17th 2008 2:50PM
Here is my two copper for what it's worth..
I have been lucky enough to be in the same guild to watch Rag Fall and hopefully Illidan soon.
But even though I have been in the same guild for these years that I have played this game.
I feel that I have been in many guilds in the time that I've been here even though I've had the same guild name above my head people come and people go for whatever reasons they feel they have to be it changes to the game mechanics
lack of new content the "casualization" of the game are real-life.
My point is that nothing lasts forever nothing stays the same guilds fall apart all the time in one way or another even if the name does not change old people leave new ones come progress slows down progress speeds up slumps happen.
So are guilds not always falling apart in some way or another?
DanKOzz May 17th 2008 3:39PM
Alot of people are selfish and think only about them selves. So many people want everything handed to them, and they don't need to work for it.
My experience of being in a successful guild, you have to treat it as a bussiness. You need to have the right people in the right possitions. Everyone needs to want to have the same things. If someone isn't going to work out, cut them loose.
As for DnT, people visons change. Some people change there mind from the game. Can't control people what they think or do. Peoples RL change too. Seems to me there was a break down in comunication. People should of resigned from positions. Can't change what has been done. But every organization will have it's good times and bad times