Ready Check: Death and Raid Guilds
by Jennie Lees 
May 17th 2008 at 3:00PM
This week, world-first guild Death and Taxes made an announcement which floored most of the raiding community: The End. Death and Taxes is no more. For a long time, raiders and non-raiders alike have been following the adventures of those guilds with the time and dedication to be competing for firsts. Seeing a household name disband, and not for April Fool's, is particularly poignant because it brings the message home that even the loftiest raid guilds are human too, subject to the same problems and drama as any other guild out there.
There have been multiple reasons given for the disbanding of D'n'T -- what's most interesting about these is that many people have commented on the same things happening in their guild, or in guilds they know about. Were the problems introduced by The Burning Crusade and other Blizzard-based changes, such as paid character transfer? Or are they fundamentally the result of high expectations, raiding downtime and the ensuing attrition over two years? Let's take a look at some of the problems facing endgame guilds' longevity, and perhaps an insight into how to avoid the same fate.
WoW is for casuals
The post by XI on Death and Taxes' site puts their disbanding down to people, not the "casualization of the game". However, recent guilds to disband such as Risen and Core have gone the other way -- pinning their problems on the advent of welfare epics, epic gems for all and the general accessibility of endgame-level loot to people who never step outside a 5-man. While this in itself isn't guild-killing, it certainly dampens morale to see someone in levelling greens using a better weapon than you, and if your entire raid force is thinking "Why am I wasting time here when I can get the same sort of loot from just doing Karazhan?" then your progress won't be great.
Of course, it isn't as simple as that. Simply seeing encounters that others can't, having a certain guild tag, raiding with certain people, boasting about Entropius dps -- these are all drivers for endgame raiders that aren't affected by loot. However, that feeling of being ahead of everyone else got negated somewhat when the Black Temple and Hyjal attunements were lifted, and that's also contributed to raiders not feeling "special" any more. Watching people wiping on Supremus can help you regain that feeling, though!
This game isn't about giving a small percentage of players the right to feel superior -- TBC has long been about accessibility, and for a lot of people who did things the hard way only to see nerf after nerf, attunement removal, badge and PvP epics as well as encounters that didn't really feel endgame-worthy, raiding has come up with more disappointments than pleasures. Naturally people who feel particularly strongly about one or all of these will drift away from raiding or the game in general, and if that's most of your guild, well -- we've seen what happens.
The downtime blues
Before the release of Sunwell, a lot of guilds spent months and months farming tier 6 content. This level of farming has been seen before while cutting-edge raiders waited for the next instance, but the sheer number of people stuck on the tier 6 plateau with nothing else to do meant that 'cutting-edge' applied to a lot of guilds and boredom was prevalent. Many raiders quickly got tired of this farming, and while some were prepared to stick it out and get that last item, or gear up those who helped them get geared, others decided they had better things to do with their time.
We've seen several people have important real life things to attend to during the learning and early farm periods in Black Temple, just as in other instances, then a couple of months down the line they suddenly have time for WoW again when -- coincidentally -- everything's on farm. Similarly, once some people had most of their gear, they surprisingly can't make raids... until the last few weeks before a new instance is released, when competition for their last few drops is non-existent too. It's only natural to get bored doing the same content for months, but not knowing from week to week who'll turn up, who'll burn out, who'll have more important things to do can really cause problems for a guild.
Firstly, if someone's dropped off the radar, you might need to recruit -- which will just cause problems if you let them come back. If people vanish with a lot of gear, that's unfortunate since it annoys the more dedicated raiders who wanted that gear. Loot isn't everything, but people still get pretty worked up about it. Having people who were MIA for months suddenly turn up and demand a raid spot also causes tension, especially if they gave a lot to the guild in the past. It's also tricky to figure out if someone is just trying to skip the hard bits and collect their epics, or if they genuinely have a RL commitment that gets in the way.
Towards the end of a long farm period, people do tend to treat raiding like a fairly mundane job. Log in at 7pm, push buttons, collect epics. None of the challenge we know and love is there; some of the fun, perhaps (but solely due to the people). With a tier 6 raid clearing tier 6 content, people can be half-asleep and underperforming and get away with it. In short, people forget what progress raiding is all about, and enjoy seeing their average ilvl get higher and higher. Then, suddenly:
New content is hard
No doubt people will disagree with this statement, but from the point of view of people who've been farming the same 14 bosses for half a year, Sunwell is hard. The encounters are well-designed and have a high level of personal accountability, something which was lacking from most of the previous bosses. People who have been half-asleep and dozed their way through glorified trash suddenly have to perform, and each guild's found themselves with a number of raiders who don't meet that mark, despite being adequate before.
So, this new instance has hit, and you've got dead weight you need to prune. You've got people who liked logging in to collect epics, but don't like having to farm consumables and wipe all night, so they mysteriously stop showing up. You've got people who could do a 3 day/week raid schedule but balk at 5. You've got raid leaders who are happy to run raids when they know the encounters inside-out, but who pass the buck when it comes to progress content.
What do you do? Suddenly, you're down to half the raiders you thought you had, key classes are missing and all the gear you got in Black Temple is sitting on characters who can't be bothered turning up -- or who aren't good enough to get raid spots. Recruiting is interesting, because plenty of other guilds are in the same situation -- some disband, and populate the recruitment 'market' with exactly the sort of t6-geared, experienced player you need, but of the wrong class. Or you have to take people in worse gear and spend valuable progress raid days gearing them up, to the dismay of the 15 or so 'core' members who never wanted to see the inside of those instances again.
If only you'd recruited back when everything was on farm. Oh, wait -- you did, but half those players got a rude awakening when stuff got hard, and they're the ones you have to replace now since you never really got to test them on farm content.
This is, perhaps, an over-exaggeration of what's happened in most guilds, but we've seen several entirely different guilds go through this "Sunwell shock" phase, and others go through exactly the same thing at the start of TBC. In others, the majority of the raid force has been eager to see new content and attrition due to the switch from farm to progress has been very low. Server firsts, PTR testing and a generally healthy attitude to recruitment and evaluation seem to be common in these lower-attrition guilds. This goes back to pride -- pride and firsts are a great motivator, and if people have something to gain beyond loot they won't desert at the first mention of wipe nights.
Leaving is easy
Paid character transfer has been a double-edged sword to recruiters. On servers where there aren't a great deal of 'feeder' guilds, picking up people at your gear level cross-realm can be a godsend and saves you an awful lot of time. Sometimes cross-server recruits don't work out, but for the most part they do, and having access to an entire region's worth of applicants (or a subset of them if you're PvE) is great.
However, it makes it easy for people to jump ship from your guild -- which may be best on server -- to one slightly further ahead elsewhere. We haven't seen many cross-server exits, but knowing some new recruits came from guilds that were in the process of dissolving, and that by recruiting them you probably helped kill that guild, is quite a conscience-stirrer.
The lack of PvE to PvP transfers and the obvious cross-faction barrier do help control the flow of raiders to some extent, but it's fairly easy to simply reroll these days, especially if you have a reputation and contacts. Thanks to badge epics, you can gear up very quickly with help, and if you join a guild that's farming tier 6 you'll be decked out in 5/8 in no time. Some people become quite invested in their mains, and this obviously isn't an option for them, but it's another valid path for those disillusioned with their faction, character or guild.
Atmosphere and language
One discussion that's sprung up in the wake of the Death and Taxes news is that of guild atmosphere changing over time -- some people rising to prominence and "spoiling the fun" for others, people using language that others found offensive, and whether said language was offensive in the first place. While etymology and idiom are fascinating subjects, what we can learn from this is that raiding isn't always the same experience, even if you're in the same guild with (mostly) the same people.
Recruiting -- a must, if you run into any of the problems described above -- naturally changes the flavour and character of a guild. While you may have common goals and ideals, you'll become a different group of people to the raid that killed Kel'Thuzad; to the group that killed Kael'Thas for the first time. The leadership changes as well as the member base, cliques develop and naturally the place changes over time. Sometimes guild members will stop, take stock and realise that the place they are now isn't the one they joined, nor is it where they want to be. That's natural enough, though one thing to be learned from some of the comments about Death and Taxes is that letting members play for power and abuse other members is likely to cause this sooner rather than later.
Trouble at the top
Especially during transition and progress periods, officers and guild leaders have it tough. Farm periods aren't totally without drama, but it all seems to happen at once during progress -- especially if you're cutting people who underperform out of raiding, or hastily trying to plug recruitment gaps caused by those who left. Add to that difference of opinions within a guild -- you'll always find people pushing for old content while others want to spend seven days a week in new -- and other overheads such as changing the DKP system, working out tactics and so forth, and soon it's hard to remember why officers are mad enough to hold the position.
Officer and GM burnout isn't rare by any means, and the downside to it is that there aren't always people ready to step into their shoes, so the remaining officers end up with more to do and thus more chance of burning out. There's nothing odd about officers who stop playing or who stop caring, but you have to be aware of things you can do if this happens, and ensure that communication between officers is good enough that there's someone who can take over if one burns out. Of course, this is a bit harder if it's the GM who burns out, but guilds have coped with this just fine -- just take your GM's orders with a pinch of salt when he suddenly becomes interested in making decisions after not raiding for a month.
So what can you do if an officer leaves? Keep an eye on your members to see who might be a good addition to the officer team in future; maybe test them out on offday or farm content runs. Get the officers who aren't raid leaders to lead some farm raids. Ensure the tasks that officer did are done by other people; you don't need a certain guild rank to do things like upload WWS or post recruitment notices. This all depends on how your guild runs itself and how your officer team operates, but losing one or more officers at a crucial time with no idea what to do about it can be crippling.
Expansion apathy
Towards the end of vanilla WoW, before TBC hit, we saw a lot of apathy hit raiders. Why should we spend our evenings toiling away and wiping on bosses in Naxxramas, when in a month or two we'll be replacing those hard-earned epics with level 60 greens? The same attitude is hitting people now, even though Wrath is a while away. Sunwell loot is supposed to last to early level 80 content, but that doesn't stop people wanting to spend more time getting their alts and bank balance ready for the expansion rather than making their main a little bit more awesome.
This will get more prevalent as Wrath approaches, but having raiders ready for the expansion is no bad thing. It simply becomes a matter of balancing time and ensuring people are still interested in the raid content as well as getting opportunities to do whatever else they feel they need to. How do you keep people interested? Ultimately, other people. Once things are on farm again, loot will come, but without a team who -- for the most part -- enjoy working and raiding together, you won't have a strong base for the expansion. Take the time now to build that up, and you'll be perfectly prepared.
Looking for more on raiding? WoW Insider's Ready Check column takes you step-by-step through Brutallus, Felmyst and general musing on raiding from the edge! For even more guides, check out WoW Insider's Directory.Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Features, Raiding, Ready Check (Raiding)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Dead May 17th 2008 3:31PM
I think you may be missing XI's point completely. From my reading, he singles out "casualization of WoW" to be the direct cause of dedicated players, in particlar raiders, to develop this sort of "not bothered attitude". As a result, this causes long term guilds to end up the same way as DnT and Risen.
Your article has biasly diverted the true "core" problem which has been brutally yet honestly pointed by XI himself - Blizzard's lacklustre approach to the game, "sacrificing quality on the altar" for quantity to appease casuals which will inevitably move away from the WoW market once candy is tossed elsewhere. By brushing aside the-above-mentioned important problem and offering rubbish divertionary reasons you are merely deceiving this website's readers and most WoW fans. I suggest you re-evaluate your thoughts carefully. I wrote this earlier on:
"From the way I've read the post, I thought that Xi- was emphasising on the fact that there is not much incentive to conduct raids any longer. This could predominantly be due to the fact that Blizzard had made the game a tad too casual then before - People stuck around even though they didn't want to only so that they may be rewarded more generously with either gear, reputation or lore - this is especially the theme pre-BC. To quote him:
"I'd love to be able to sit here and tell you this was a result of the casualization of the game, of feeding us easy encounters for mediocre rewards, while at the same time undercutting these meagre accomplishments and upgrades with welfare epics obtainable by anyone who has a large quantity of time, regardless of their skill or lack thereof. Let's be honest the theme of TBC is sacrificing everything that was good about raiding on the altar of accessibility"
And perhaps this statement has some merit to it and may be true in lieu of WoW becoming a more casual accessible game - there are less challenges around, even so less rewards to be meted out for those players who overcome the high odds of the challenge itself: the "epic Welfare scenario" and BoJ implementation, the removal of atonements, the nerfing of bosses (i do agree to bug fixes to remove impracticalities, but never nerfing it to the point of making it easier).
The mentality of Blizzard in setting the stage for "overly casual" play is either that of being extremely short-sighted or maybe it is their intended target after all?. I say "short-sighted" because I strongly believe that a game with no challenges insurmountable to that of a single person or a group of ordinary people will, inevitably, fade off. Why would a game fade off in popularity by merely being less challenging or time consuming, you might ask? Well, for most of us, we semi-consciously stick around the world of Azeroth/Outlands with hopes and aspirations of becoming THE best equipped, best geared, the highest ranked pixel ... there is a humanly sub-conscious need for us to prove ourselves better than other people for various reasons. After all, if this were not the case the arguments and demands from casuals to entitle them to equal purple loot (on the basis that they pay the equal money for the game) will fall flat and they would hard pressed to counter-argue this should I bring up the subject of playing Single player games (especially in the no rewards genre like FPS – excluding BF2 and the post-patch TF2). If one is not fussed about merely retaining blues or greens on their character, then I sincerely concede my argument on this point. But then again, I assume this stance only because I dare not imagine anyone could find running around Azeroth/Outlands on a daily basis, completing repetitive chores such as dailies, fishing or killing the same old pixelated mobs to be sustainably interesting - the point being, doing away with challenges and its severely ridiculous yet highly important time-drain factor, and WoW and any other successful MMO will no longer be an appealing game, based on my earlier arguments.
As for those folks who meekly declare that their money's worth is that of Lore, I find this proposition to be unconvincing. Why would one attempt to waste their time playing a game just to entitle them to capture the lore of Warcraft? There are tonnes of Warcraft laden lore books on the market at the moment and my presumption, though biased but true, would be that at least half of such people demanding to see/feel/hear the lore through the computer screen, have yet to pick up one of these Warcraft written books (which i highly recommend). Coming back to my point, it is inevitable that one is only human, and their sub-conscious need to prove oneself better then others is both permissible and far from immoral. After all, what use is there for grinding mobs or running daily quests day-in day-out if it were not for “real-life worthless” Gold (with the exception for Gold Farmers), for running the same old instances again and again (even though with intolerable pick ups) with fingers-crossed that a statistical probability (of gaining specific loot) will occur? It all sensibly leads to my previous argument that WoW should be (yet it is direly subverting from it) based on the fundamental aspects of any traditional MMOs – to satisfy this “e-peen”, or ego or what not, be it sub-conscious or not.
To conclude, I have a strong feeling, seeing how things are going, that WotLK will be the final episode to this fantastic chapter of Warcraft history, its swan song being a deception to the people to go will and buy it. 10 million subscribers in the end of the day will find the exact emptiness I felt, a void that was once filled with a sense of satisfaction and accomplishment – after all, sustaining a game on merely dailies, and short instances with push over raids, will lose its general appeal in a slow but steady fashion.
(P.S before one goes on to dismiss this opinion as being hypocritical and elitist, I can assure you that despite having downed Illidan 4 months back, with my Haomorush EU guild, I have put my mouth where my money is and have stopped playing WoW since then due to the prescribed reasoning above. In addition, I DO NOT consider myself hardcore as I only spent 3 raiding days a week (mindful of my law degree in tow) and pre-BC was only a ZG raider only. I have played with my 3/8 T6 Warlock main and a Warrior alt, since Early Nov 2005.)
"
Krisby May 17th 2008 4:00PM
It always astounds me how people who say they no longer play WoW still have such a strong visceral reaction to things with it in mind. From forum trolls to WoW site reply's. How indeed do you all still find it fun to talk about something you say you've given up? I think truly WoW's biggest pull is the fact that your never done with it. You just take a break. I have seen people quit, delete there toons and still end up coming back to reroll another one. You cant quit this game it seems. Once your hooked you are forever tied into its being. Maybe thats why many people who quit spend the rest of their time complaining about why they quit. Instead of just moving on.
Nosophoros May 17th 2008 4:18PM
Holy hell, that's a wall of text...
But still a well-written and smart comment.
Charlie May 17th 2008 9:34PM
I agree with the well written and smart part, but i don't really find the argument valid.
I've said over and over and over again, play for the content. Meaning, play for fun. Its a game, your supposed to have fun. If you aren't having fun than yes, you shouldn't play the game anymore. I see nothing wrong with blizzard trying to allow as many people as possible as much access to fun.
There will always be someone who is trying to be the first, and the best, since that is how MMOs work. And as long as there is that hardcore element, the economies will not collapse, and wow will be fine.
James Stevenson May 18th 2008 12:02AM
You should get your money back on your law degree, you would make a terrible lawyer. Your aurgement is far to pedantic
and totally lacking in any thing resembling reason.
It is been proven time and again shorter instances and "welfare" epics are what the masses want. The "casual" player is what is lining the pockets of Blizz, not the very, very few "hardcore" raiders. The "casual" player will play for years and years and keep playing so long as they can get a glimps of end game content. The "hardcore" player will only play for a short time, go do something else and then come back with the next big raid comes out or expansion. The "hardcore" players should realize by now they have prestige, how many of them can claim a title that the casual can not. I have seen more people be impressed with someone who has a title because they did it first. If that is not enough to make them happy an thier ego stroked, oh well. As Doctor Denis Leary once said "Shut the F Up or wear a helmet"
Blizz has between 15 to 20 years left of content and will continue to thrive.
Verit May 18th 2008 4:46AM
In some ways your right - the game is considerably more casual - certianly more so than any other mmo I've played. If you want something more hardcore - go back to L2 or EQ.
And they've removed attunements from a lot of these higher end instances.
But I personally haven't set foot in them, and neither has anyone I know who plays the game (and thats over 4 different servers from people I've met at work). So its not casual enough that just anyone can do that content.
I suppose DnT's comment about people getting gear thats equivalent if they're willing to spend enough time. It'd take something like 10-15 full kara clears for my shaman to get all those wonderful items I'd like to have, but only so that I'd be geared enough to actually make a serious application to a guild that is running bt/hyjal. Otherwise I really have no chance since none of them are really willing to step back and gear me up. I don't blame them either. Badge rewards are just a stop-gap answer to a rather complex problem - how to catch up to guilds who have long since passed content.
On the server I play on - Staghelm - the guilds working on Hyjal/BT (or SSC/TK even) seem to be happy and holding together - why? Because they didn't work all day and night to blow through it all in a week.
Blizzard is at fault too - making everything so gear dependant and then doing gear resets every expansion. I have to be honest - when bc came out I was thrilled because I never had time or a chance to run any raid really - and all the stuff I picked up from quests was far superior to anything I could dream up, but then you realize that if this keeps happening there is less incentive to do it all again for the next expansion. Plus it makes all that old content complete obsolete.
Some day I'll lose all my motivation to play this game, but it hasn't happened yet.
xzigraz May 19th 2008 12:59PM
well put my man, i think WOW is digging it's own grave now. What made the game great was the separation of hardcore players and casual player. I remember it was cool to check out other people's gears in IF because I dreamed one day that I will get them. I never did, but my dream is still there. Now, it's like if I have time, I can get just as good items as the raiding stuff, these items lost its meanings for me to play the game. Everything is just time matter, there was no skill involved anymore. I can just running around in AV all day for several weeks and I get full epic gears that on par with other raiding people. Hell, I got all my alts' gear that way.
Dead May 17th 2008 4:20PM
I do not agree with you in totality but there is some merit in your argument, albeit merely detractionary point from my main argument. There will be loads of times where moaners, whiners,etc prove to be all too many a times hypocritical and come back to the game after stating that they won't, that i agree with you - but this is beside the point.
I believe that I have every right to see, give ideas, encourage improvements as much as you do to this WoW community - for I was not only a WoW fan, but am still a Warcraft fan. Any subversive actions (a.k.a the overly business minded nature of (perhaps) Vivendi Activision Blizzard to sacrifice quality for temporary gains) brought against this universe as a whole should be well fought against. I dare say that you have completely missed the point by offering a dismissive caricacture picture to us who criticise the percipitating problems in this game. Those of us who criticise, are those of us who usually care about the game - for its longlivity, its quality, etc and not are here just to retain the game to ourselves - as i pointed out, it is these "core" people who happen to predominantelyhard-core raiders that would keep this game going as a beacon of inspiration and aspiration for us who have to yet to accomplish such level of skills, determination and courage.
Trustee of Lothar Jun 24th 2008 9:38AM
Personally, I think the 'casualization' of the game will be great. People think that the 40-man raids were the pinnacle of the raiding system, and I think that 10-mans that are well-designed require much more talent... In a 40 man raid, you could easily have 5-10 people who weren't pulling their weight and still easily finish an encounter. In a 10-man raid you really feel it when one person performs sub-par. In my opinion, anybody who gripes about the down-sizing of raids is just being critical of the designers making it easier for people to start up a raid group. Remember, starting a group doesn't guarantee success. Anybody out there who gripes about small raids probably has never had to organize or lead a 25 or 40 man raid.
Besides that, anybody who gripes about there not being enough to do in this game either has a totally unbalanced life that revolves around playing the game, or hasn't actually bothered to do a majority of the content in the game. I like to try to play every class and experience all the zones of the game. This may mean I'm not better than average at any particular thing, but it also means I'm not left complaining that I have nothing to do a year before the next content release.
Retro May 17th 2008 5:14PM
Oh, woe is me. A hardcore raiding guild doesn't like World of Warcraft anymore.
I'd shed a tear, except for the fact that Hardcore Raiders are such an insignificant percentage of WoW players that catering to their interests from launch has produced volumes of content most players will never see. Not because they're lazy or because they're 'unskilled n00bz', but because they don't have the time to work 40+ hours a week to survive and then spend all of their free time raiding.
Gathering, organizing, gearing, training and managing 25 people (and 40 before TBC) isn't exactly an easy task, and as a result most players just don't have the time to devote to the shiny 'endgame'. As a result, they're always left feeling under-geared and left out of some of the most exciting content the game has to offer.
The end result is lots of discouraged players who either quit, or try other, less savory ways to obtain the shiny end-game perks they're denied (such as Ebay, or farming / buying 20,000 Gold so they can get a ZA Bear Mount).
I won't lose any sleep over groups like Nihilum or D&T complaining or breaking up. Just because they have the time and energy to devote to 'beating' a computer game doesn't mean they should be the ones dictating future content. As far as I'm concerned, they can't fade into extinction fast enough, allowing us non-elites to actually enjoy the content without making World of Warcraft our second jobs. Here's a tissue, guys.
Druid dude May 17th 2008 5:21PM
"We really need another healer in here. I see two options: Player A who has been around for only a month, but online all the time. Player B who vanished without a trace for 3 months, but has tremendously superior gear."
"Yeah, we should get Player B in here right now."
"Actually, I am going to bring in Player A."
This is a conversation theme occurs every once in a while in officer chat in our guild. Ninety percent of the time, I will bring in the consistent player rather than one who did a vanishing act. Yes, Player B has better gear, and will give us a better chance of beating the boss right now. But bringing in Player B is short sighted. You make that decision the wrong too many times, and you will pay a very hefty price at some point. It might not be today, or tomorrow, but its coming.
The longer term must always be considered. Not to the point of completely ignoring the needs of tonite's raid, but it has to be given a lot of weight.
Many people have the gear, ability and experience to raid effectively. That is where the decision making process often stops when it comes time to do raid invites. It is wise to go one level deeper and consider as well *the will to raid* in a person. This represents the longer term, and considering it greatly decreases the chances of fatal guild issues down the road.
Still, some times stuff just blows up!
Mikefurion May 17th 2008 5:31PM
@1
At the end of the day the only "point" to be gained from your "argument" is that you stopped enjoying WoW. So you quit.
As for myself, like millions of other people around the world, I still enjoy WoW. So I continue to play.
It doesn't take a law degree to see that if you quit playing because you're unhappy with the current status of the game, then the best thing you can do for yourself is to just move on and let it go.
bob1231 May 17th 2008 6:26PM
WOW has always done this from the beginning. They let the Ubers have at it and get there gear then after 4 to 6 months they let the rest of us have a shot at the good stuff. And it will only continue. This is a quote about ROTLK from Jeff Kaplan at Blizzard "I'm sure a subset of the snobbier, "l33ter" players are going to feel that Blizzard has lessened the experience by letting the lower-class rabble in, but screw those people." He is talking about giving all 25 man instances a 10 man version. If you are and uber that feels like you have been cheated but wellfair epics and the like you best find a different game because it is not going to get any better.
Hobbes May 17th 2008 7:19PM
> While this in itself isn't guild-killing, it certainly dampens morale to see someone in levelling greens using a better weapon than you,
If you are a hardcore player, then there is nothing stopping you from getting the same weapon as you see from that casual in "levelling greens." Indeed, it will take you much less time, and a far smaller percentage of your overall playtime.
Kawanda May 17th 2008 9:46PM
Player A buys a game and Player B buys it too. Both of them rush home and quickly begin playing. Player A gets to level three, and decides to spend his time on multiplayer. Player B however, likes the game so much that he decides to dedicate all of his gaming time to that singleplayer. Player B is able to beat the progression aspect game and see the all exclusive cutscene and access all of the shiny bonus characters that come with that prestige. But then Player A comes back from playing his other random game and enters a secret code that opens all of the cutscenes and characters without beating the game.
This is the crux of the issue. Player B decided to work for the rewards, and Player A didn't. Both spent the same amount of time playing video games, and the same amount of money buying the game, but Player B is left with the distinct impression that he/she wasted their time. The rewards of endgame should have a particular distinction to satisfy those who achieve them. While there is an argument to be made that both deserve their respective content, it is a bankrupt argument to say that neither deserve their rewards.
Frequently, the point of many is that the people who experience the endgame are the gaming junkies who dedicate 40+ hours a week to raiding. This is often not the case. I'm in a guild that raids 3 days a week and recognizes that their members prioritize real-life issues before WoW issues. We are 5/6 in SSC and 1/4 in TK and I'm confident that if we pull together properly and progress as quickly as we have been, we'll see T6 content before WotLK. But I don't want to see that content on "EZmode." The challenge of clearing SSC/TK is what we enjoy about the game, and the loot is what makes it worth it.
It makes me sick to hear all of these comments insulting T6 raiders, saying that the only reason that they have gear is because they have a huge amount of time to dedicate themselves to the game. That's simply not the case. It takes skill and dedication to progress that far into the endgame. It also makes me sick to hear T6 raiders insulting T4 raiders, saying that they're all unskilled, because that's not the case either. While I agree with T4 raiders that the endgame should eventually be opened up, we must realize that we have to work for it. I know its like running into a brick wall, but the reward should be for climbing it, not waiting for someone to build a door.
Krianna May 18th 2008 2:50AM
prestige. But then Player A comes back from playing his other random game and enters a secret code that opens all of the cutscenes and characters without beating the game.
Except that they didn't.
Player B had only a few hours a day to spend on line, and--six months after player A-- has a *chance* at getting gear a step lower than Player B.
Player A then cries because he can't one-shot Player B.
Pardon me if I do *not* weep for the creation of a "middle class" for world of warcraft-- no matter how much the robber barons complain.
James Stevenson May 17th 2008 11:42PM
lol said this before TBC and will say this now...They will be back, you can count on it.
Wow is to casual, go cry yourself to sleep you lame losers. Its a bloody game and once the Wrath hits you will return.
Pavid May 18th 2008 12:16AM
The gear thing is BS. I have a casual relationship with my current Sunwell guild that's on phase 2 of Muru as of tonight. I know what hardcore raiders care about and I understand the community. Are there condescending jokes and whines being made about badge and pvp gear? Sure. But it really isn't a big deal to them. They have almost the exact opposite attitude actually. They're constantly looking for ways to maximize their character in every way possible. And if they can do that by farming badges or trying to get a high arena rating then they will. Most raiders do both 25 mans and 10 mans for badges.
And nobody likes long attunements. Just cuz some whiney guilds out there do doesn't mean they represent the majority. Did you like doing SSC and TK again for new recruits? People moaned about that in my guild all the time.
You guys honestly overly exagerate how hard it is to get raid gear. Gear has been made easier to get in -general-. Not just through pvp and badge farming. Last time I checked we have half as many people to compete for loot for since 60 WOW. ~Three~ gear set tokens drop that several classes can use. And the itemization is much smarter now. So getting all high and mighty about TBC raid gear is absurd. And maybe you should look up the story about a guild called "pve is hard". They were a bunch of pvp addicts who formed a raid guild to prove that raid gear is just as easy if not easier to get. They cleared -every- single 25 man raid boss from SSC to BT including Illidan and Archimonde in less than 2 weeks...
The idea that's become so popular that pvp gear is so easy to get is nonsense. All that honor gear costs over 100k honor easily. That's ~a lot~ of /played time. And guess what, it's only good in ~PVP~. The S3 arena sets require several months to obtain and the weapons have rating requirements. And on top of that they have to farm 60 badges for their cloak. Do you have a full set of S3 gear jennie? If it's sooo easy to get then go get it.
I'd rather grind for full T6 in a 25 man raid guild over grinding for a full set of S3 gear any day. And I can speak from experience since I've actually done both unlike you.
Jennie Lees May 18th 2008 10:53AM
Don't assume so much. My main spec is rubbish at PvP so I have a full S2/S3 pvp set on both my main, for a different spec, and my pvp alt. Why not full S3? Lack of time, mostly; I simply got pieces to fill in the weaker gaps. My best PvE weapon was from PvP for a while -- now it's from badges, YAY -- and respeccing to cast a few lifeblooms every week or so was pretty fun while it lasted. It wasn't particularly hard. Leading raids is.
GamerJunkie May 18th 2008 12:32AM
Hardcore raiding is weak, once you realize such a useless and time waste it is. You can accomplish much more rewarding things in real life with the time.
I love it, when I found out one of our Raid Leader who is your WOW Lore Nerd turns out to be a Papa John's delivery guy, acting like the an elitist in game but irl, he's just a loser.