Is Karazhan no longer for entry level raiders?
by Zach Yonzon 
May 18th 2008 at 4:00PM
For the past weeks, we had been doing 2 1/2 hour Karazhan for badges, and for the most part we made sure that our raid members were equipped in Tier 4-5 or better. We'd turbo pull to bosses with a Paladin tank and Disenchanted nearly every drop because, really, no one needed anything from there. We ran it for badges and wanted to breeze through the instance as quickly as possible. We would wince if we brought someone who wasn't familiar with the strats or had more than a few blues.
Ironically, these people who have blues are the ones who actually need Karazhan more. The PuG we brought who'd never been to Karazhan was a Hunter who got an upgrade right away when Attumen dropped Steelhawk Crossbow. Even though it took us twice as long, the run actually helped gear a few people. It got me thinking about how Karazhan is being run now. At this stage in the game, where progression has dispensed several tiers of gear above what Karazhan offers, has Karazhan's original role of being an entry level raid changed? Because Karazhan is the most efficient instance to farm badges, most people -- such as our raid -- don't want to slow ourselves down by bringing undergeared players.
Karazhan loot was intended to gear up people for 25-man raids and quickly became one of Blizzard's most popular instances. In fact, Karazhan is run more than ever, but probably for the wrong reasons. Now, many players run it for badges, and the players who actually need upgrades from the place find it more difficult to find spots in raids. Fewer and fewer guilds are moving through Karazhan as progression. Has Karazhan now become the playground of geared raiders rather than those only beginning to raid? While I'm personally not too keen on bringing undergeared players for an epic train ride, it makes me wonder about how badges have changed the purpose of Karazhan for many players.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Instances, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
PeeWee May 18th 2008 4:14PM
I still see guild recruiting drives looking for people for their Kara raids. I guess they have to start somewhere.
Kara as such is good training grounds for 25-man. Yes it's easy, but you learn some good mechanics that you use later on.
Drekkus May 19th 2008 12:49AM
You use Kara for one reason, we use kara for other reasons. It's a raid with many uses. It's an entry level raid and that's what it always will be. Because your guild is on Kara Farm, does not mean we need to change Kara globally to only allow experienced toons in with a Be-imba score beyond BT.
Kevin May 18th 2008 4:15PM
You're just in a high raiding guild. My guild has half of it's raiders still in KZ for gear with the other half doing progression in ZA with everyone coming together on Sundays for Mags. There are KZ guilds out there still.
Eternalpayn May 18th 2008 4:17PM
It makes sense with the badge system that as people progress, they still go back to the easy (easiest, even) raid to farm them. It is still run for gear by a ton of guilds who are just starting to raid.
Timaeüs - Quel'Thalas EU May 18th 2008 4:25PM
Yes and no.
Karazhan is an excellent as well as a rather simple instance easy for both gearing newcomers and badge runs.
However, the easyness of Karazhan is a double edged blade.
The problem with it being the lowest tier raid is that it's prone to idiots.
With idiots, I mean the types that show up in full Season 1 with no experience and who don't listen to the raid leader.
Those are the people you want to avoid while raiding.
Don't get me wrong, I might be geared up in Tier 5 but I've been in many successfull Karazhan PuG runs that I've organised. At every time, I avoid people who fall into the profile of "idiot".
TL;DR version:
To all newcomers to Karazhan who want to roll along easily:
-) Prepare. Read the boss tactics and understand them. Sure, it's always unclear until you give it a whirl, but even then it's better to come prepared then to enter without your braincells. Even more if you're in welfare epixx. Raiders will generally blame things on you.
-) Build a reputation. This is even more important if you're a tank or a healer. Run some heroics with some of the higher end guild players and befriend them, not just to get a spot on Karazhan. No..really, befriend them. If you want to raid Karazhan, chances are you'll get along with high end raiders quite nicely.
To all High End Raiders:
-) On Quel'Thalas, we have the PuG Raids in which the guild holds PuGs to SSC and TK every week. Where most people tend to think it's doomed, it's in fact VERY VERY successfull with free loot rules and an overal excellent explanation of tactics. I strongly encourage other guilds out there to do this as well. It's the proverbial "1337".
-) You all started in blues. Think of that the next time you deny that tank who might not be full epic, but is trying damn hard to be. Don't discourage any people down the easymode-road.
-) One PuGger won't break a guild, they might just make one. I've seen full-blue mages outDPS a T5 Hunter, just by knowing what to do in terms of positioning and rotations. I've seen full gladiator Hunters outDPS others who we're considerably better geared in terms of raiding.
Most important. I've seen a full-blue tank who came along with us perform EXCELLENT on every boss. It was his first time in Karazhan. He's now part of the guild and geared up in T5 as well.
TL;DR TL;DR version: The PuGGer you're denying today might be the one you want over a month.
Cheers.
Zach May 18th 2008 4:26PM
That's really good to hear from everyone, I guess. I'm on an old server, so for the most part, Karazhan's old hat. I haven't seen to many players doing it on progression but it's good news that it still holds its mystique for many new players.
Jonathan May 18th 2008 6:11PM
I understand what its like to be on the low rung of the raiding ladder becasue I was there not to long ago. I have been 70 now for about 8 months now and I have only run kara 3 times due to the fact that alot of the spots in kara runs are for higher guild level members that want to farm badges. I have no problem with this and I understand that I need to wait my turn and appreciate getting to run it with my guild, but right now there is a divide: high level geared players that are running instanses to farm badges, and new level 70's that need gear but can never get a spot in a raid.
Sirg May 18th 2008 4:28PM
There are people who are rolling an alt.. and may have blues and even greens, but they know the instance by heart... so don't judge people by their gear when making the raid.
Gordon W May 18th 2008 4:44PM
From my experience Kharazan is played by people who think that purples are better than blues even if the blues have much better stats.
my2cents May 18th 2008 11:14PM
That's funny. Seems to be Karazhan is run by all sorts of people, not just someone who fits into your stereotype.
Manatank May 18th 2008 4:36PM
Gear isn't really what makes Kara hard or not. I'm currently gearing up my third alt in Kara, and despite rolling into the place in mostly greens it is still easy. It's all about knowing the fights.
Apophis May 19th 2008 1:47AM
I hit 70 with my undead mage last week (played 3 years a human mage, raided everything from mc to illidan). Was exalted with two alliance chars in Karazhan.
I did Karazhan with my undead right on friday with some old friends who rerolled horde some time before me.
I was mostly in greens/leveling blues (around 450 spelldamage, 20 hit rating, frost leveling spec) but outdps'd 2 of the other dd from their guild with t4 or better equip.
Foxfyr May 18th 2008 4:38PM
My guild is now regularly clearing Kara several times a week.
I can remember the months of effort it took to finally beat that place though and I very much disagree with anyone that says it is "easy."
Yes, it is easy when you have a couple people decked out in 25 man gear. And Yes, it is easy when you have several members in full Kara epics.
But beating that place without any outside help and with only the upgrades a guild gets as they progress through it is definitely a challenge. And something that people should be proud to accomplish.
Sylythn May 18th 2008 4:50PM
This is one of the reasons I really was against removing attunements, even though the BC ones were exceptionally long. You can now get to 70 without learning anything from instance runs or doing a heroic. You can now get into Kara without ever having to run the instances you used to. You can now get into any raid with little to no experience. So is there any wonder that we have newish players that don't have a clue where or how to learn to raid? Kara NEEDS to be that place, because it's the only thing being run anymore that allows for it. If all you do is badge farm, then where do you train people for your runs in SSC/TK and beyond? And can you really expect people to get the knowledge and experience they used to before hitting Kara? Sure it used to be that Kara "wasn't the place to learn how to play", but where else are people going to do it these days - with regular runs being run only by people who need to hit Honored.
Rob May 20th 2008 11:17AM
Even well geared raids can still wipe on trash in kara. Almost always due to a silly mistake or two. So I would definately think that the time to learn to play in a group is not in kara, its too unforgiving. There are, what, 12 outland dungeons? The earlier ones are quite forgiving. The later ones are progressively harder. If you want to start playing in groups, do SP or UB or ramps until you get it. It just gets worse from there.
Thorzon May 19th 2008 11:11AM
Sorry, but I have to totally disagree with you on this one.
We've been doing Kara like you have said for many months now to farm for badges. We constantly bring in new, undergeared players and we can still cruise though the entire instance.
In fact, yesterday we brought in my 16-yr old daughter on her Shammy. She's never seen Kara. Never been in a raid group larger than a few 5-mans. She was in all blues and greens. She breezed through the entire instance and only died once during Prince as she was unused to the debuff and accidently moved through Inferno's AOE.
In the future, I'd be careful with making such broad generalizations about players. Just because your group is incapable of making it through the instance, doesn't mean that every other group is going to fail.
Zach May 18th 2008 10:59PM
Taking 1 or 2 inexperienced players -- and ones who listen, as your daughter seems to -- is different from taking half a raid of players who don't focus fire, Hunters who fail at Feign Death, a Druid who insists on doing DPS as a bear... it was a nightmare.
I wasn't generalizing about not finishing the instance (we continued it today with our regular crew). It was an observation about how the place has transformed for (apparently some) people.
Elmo May 18th 2008 5:00PM
in my guild we have a casual and a hardcore part.
this usually means a Kara run with BT geared people for badges and Blue/S1 geared ones for loot.
it goes pretty well tbh
Geo Lara May 18th 2008 5:10PM
On my server [Uldum] Kara has become a badge farm for the well geared. You almost constantly hear in the trade and LFG channels: LFM KARA, MUST BE GEARED AND KNOW FIGHTS (folks are saying the same for normal Magister's Terrace but I digress). It seems like very few guilds recruit for KARA for progression anymore which is kinda sad, I'd love to see the inside of that place sometime.
Fyrestrike May 18th 2008 5:21PM
Wish we could clear it. We haven't yet. Been working at it since December.
Of course, we're a casual guild, and not a hardcore one.