Scattered Shots: Got mana?
Scattered Shots is temporarily subtitled "Scattered Thoughts" this week, as David goes off on a speculative tangent. Perhaps all this expansion leakage is causing a leak in his brain too, but hey, a little bit of intellectual pondering never hurt anyone, right? This column is for hunters, by the way -- but, yeah... you knew that.
After writing last week's article about hunter problems and predictions, I got to thinking about how hunters use mana, and reflecting on the question of whether hunters should be using mana or not. Hunters have many things in common with classes like rogues and warriors, such as doing physical damage, and yet they have much in common with mages and warlocks as well, such as being vulnerable to mana-draining abilities. This issue is vague enough that my observations here can only be considered personal opinions, and they won't be of interest if all you want from this column is a list of the greatest gear and talent builds. But for the speculative among us, there's lots to discuss here.
How does it feel?
While, of course there are other classes do damage with mana, hunters are the only class where it doesn't really make sense. Enhancement shamans and retribution paladins, for example, still have a sense that they are casting spells when they use mana, while hunters need mana for shooting poisoned arrows and laying down traps -- activities which (aside from Arcane Shot) should logically require more technical know-how than arcane energy. It would make more sense for a hunter to prepare traps and arrows ahead of time much like a rogue prepares poisons, or at least to spend some other sort of non-magical energy on them -- but that, of course, would make the class feel very differently, wouldn't it? Could we argue that some sort of change to the mana system for hunters would make things better? Or, on the other hand, if the mana system ain't broke, should we really even think about fixing it, regardless of how "illogical" it might feel? Heaven knows there are all sorts of illogical things about the game and class mechanics already.
And yet this issue isn't really about logical realism so much as it is about look and feel. It's a different kind of logical sense that says hunters shouldn't use mana -- not like a voice saying, "But hunters wouldn't use mana in real life!" so much as a nagging feeling that mana doesn't feel very hunterly. It's as if a mage could walk around with a massive two-handed axe, or death knights could inscribe their unholy runes on a fishing pole. It doesn't really feel like something your class would do.
Naturally, of course, however it feels, that's just exactly what our class is doing as we speak. The game says that hunters use mana now -- and you could easily make the argument that it ain't worth the trouble to go about changing the mana system for something else with hunters. Indeed, such a change might cause more problems than it solves.
Know them limits
But what are the problems hunters have with mana, other than just that feeling some of us have that it doesn't "feel right?" Hunters complain that they run out of mana too soon, in long fights, or that we have to give up our attack bonuses (such as Aspect of the Hawk) in order to get more longevity out of our mana pool. In truth, however, this kind of tradeoff seems like one of the intentional choices Blizzard has built into the hunter class -- short bursts of lots of ranged damage, or more sustainable damage over a longer period of time. Some hunters may not enjoy making the choice, but as a game mechanism, it's actually a pretty good one. All the power mechanisms for special abilities in the game have limitations that nobody likes. Mana users hate running out of mana, of course, but warriors hate the feeling that they can't build up rage fast enough sometimes, and rogues hate having to wait for energy to replenish before they can get off their finishing moves. No matter what power mechanism you have, there will always be some limiting factor involved -- if it isn't the particular set of limitations you have now, then it would be something else, perhaps even worse from the current complainers' point of view. You can do some of the damage all of the time, or all of the damage some of the time, but you can't do all of the damage all of the time.
A friend of mine that was around when WoW was still in early early beta claims that hunters used to have some kind of aiming bar, which allowed us to use our abilities depending on how long we had been standing still, "taking aim." (Can any readers back this up, perhaps?) Apparently, this was back before we even had pets, so who knows -- and obviously, however this idea might have worked at first, it got tanked pretty quickly. Hunters are much more fun when they're able to move around a lot -- in fact moving around quickly and using all the space you've got is one of the most interesting things about being a hunter, and with abilities like Steady Shot, standing still does have its perks in many situations.
So other than the feeling that mana doesn't quite fit the hunter class, and aside from the untenable complaint that hunter limitations aren't fair for some reason, the only real problem I see with hunters and mana is that it forces us to take account of our intellect when choosing our gear. To be honest, however, abilities like Aspect of the Viper go a long way, in my experience, to help counterbalance a relatively small mana pool, and I don't mind using mana potions just like mages do. To me, mana potions feel more useful than either thistle tea for rogues or rage potions for warriors. Shot for shot, it just seems that we can get a lot more use out of them, and they feel a lot easier to get a hold of too.
Sad pandas
So here I am, having said all this, basically convincing myself that it's better to keep the mana system than to try and switch it out for something else -- and I find myself a little bit saddened by this realization. The feeling that mana just isn't hunter-like doesn't exactly make me cry myself to sleep every night, but it persists. It floats up to the top of my mind every now and then and wiggles about. I look on jealously as death knights get not one, but two different power bars underneath their character portraits -- one bar for runes and one for "runic power" -- it just doesn't seem fair! I want a special bar and nifty combos too! Death knights are cool and all, but in my heart I want hunters to be cooler! If Blizzard announced today that Wrath of the Lich King will replace hunters' mana with rainbow-colored Pew-Pew-Powa, I would smile and read on about it eagerly before admitting to myself or anyone else that it may not be such a good idea.
I guess I'll just have to mark this little desire (or is it just envy?) for special hunta-powa as one of those "Oh wells" in life. Yeah, it would have been nice if it could have been possible, but alas, the rules aren't likely to get changed this late in the game. I think I'll just pretend that hunter mana isn't so much magical energy as it is a rough measure of cunning and preparation in battle, and I'll suggest any other hunter who doesn't like mana-usage do the same.
There's more to Scattered Shots than meets the eye! If rambling is making you feel down in the dumps and hungry for some hardcore analysis, check out the best professions and weapons for a hunter. Otherwise snack on a cookie and have a look at what we love most about being hunters.
After writing last week's article about hunter problems and predictions, I got to thinking about how hunters use mana, and reflecting on the question of whether hunters should be using mana or not. Hunters have many things in common with classes like rogues and warriors, such as doing physical damage, and yet they have much in common with mages and warlocks as well, such as being vulnerable to mana-draining abilities. This issue is vague enough that my observations here can only be considered personal opinions, and they won't be of interest if all you want from this column is a list of the greatest gear and talent builds. But for the speculative among us, there's lots to discuss here.
How does it feel?
While, of course there are other classes do damage with mana, hunters are the only class where it doesn't really make sense. Enhancement shamans and retribution paladins, for example, still have a sense that they are casting spells when they use mana, while hunters need mana for shooting poisoned arrows and laying down traps -- activities which (aside from Arcane Shot) should logically require more technical know-how than arcane energy. It would make more sense for a hunter to prepare traps and arrows ahead of time much like a rogue prepares poisons, or at least to spend some other sort of non-magical energy on them -- but that, of course, would make the class feel very differently, wouldn't it? Could we argue that some sort of change to the mana system for hunters would make things better? Or, on the other hand, if the mana system ain't broke, should we really even think about fixing it, regardless of how "illogical" it might feel? Heaven knows there are all sorts of illogical things about the game and class mechanics already.
And yet this issue isn't really about logical realism so much as it is about look and feel. It's a different kind of logical sense that says hunters shouldn't use mana -- not like a voice saying, "But hunters wouldn't use mana in real life!" so much as a nagging feeling that mana doesn't feel very hunterly. It's as if a mage could walk around with a massive two-handed axe, or death knights could inscribe their unholy runes on a fishing pole. It doesn't really feel like something your class would do.
Naturally, of course, however it feels, that's just exactly what our class is doing as we speak. The game says that hunters use mana now -- and you could easily make the argument that it ain't worth the trouble to go about changing the mana system for something else with hunters. Indeed, such a change might cause more problems than it solves.
Know them limits
But what are the problems hunters have with mana, other than just that feeling some of us have that it doesn't "feel right?" Hunters complain that they run out of mana too soon, in long fights, or that we have to give up our attack bonuses (such as Aspect of the Hawk) in order to get more longevity out of our mana pool. In truth, however, this kind of tradeoff seems like one of the intentional choices Blizzard has built into the hunter class -- short bursts of lots of ranged damage, or more sustainable damage over a longer period of time. Some hunters may not enjoy making the choice, but as a game mechanism, it's actually a pretty good one. All the power mechanisms for special abilities in the game have limitations that nobody likes. Mana users hate running out of mana, of course, but warriors hate the feeling that they can't build up rage fast enough sometimes, and rogues hate having to wait for energy to replenish before they can get off their finishing moves. No matter what power mechanism you have, there will always be some limiting factor involved -- if it isn't the particular set of limitations you have now, then it would be something else, perhaps even worse from the current complainers' point of view. You can do some of the damage all of the time, or all of the damage some of the time, but you can't do all of the damage all of the time.
A friend of mine that was around when WoW was still in early early beta claims that hunters used to have some kind of aiming bar, which allowed us to use our abilities depending on how long we had been standing still, "taking aim." (Can any readers back this up, perhaps?) Apparently, this was back before we even had pets, so who knows -- and obviously, however this idea might have worked at first, it got tanked pretty quickly. Hunters are much more fun when they're able to move around a lot -- in fact moving around quickly and using all the space you've got is one of the most interesting things about being a hunter, and with abilities like Steady Shot, standing still does have its perks in many situations.
So other than the feeling that mana doesn't quite fit the hunter class, and aside from the untenable complaint that hunter limitations aren't fair for some reason, the only real problem I see with hunters and mana is that it forces us to take account of our intellect when choosing our gear. To be honest, however, abilities like Aspect of the Viper go a long way, in my experience, to help counterbalance a relatively small mana pool, and I don't mind using mana potions just like mages do. To me, mana potions feel more useful than either thistle tea for rogues or rage potions for warriors. Shot for shot, it just seems that we can get a lot more use out of them, and they feel a lot easier to get a hold of too.
Sad pandas
So here I am, having said all this, basically convincing myself that it's better to keep the mana system than to try and switch it out for something else -- and I find myself a little bit saddened by this realization. The feeling that mana just isn't hunter-like doesn't exactly make me cry myself to sleep every night, but it persists. It floats up to the top of my mind every now and then and wiggles about. I look on jealously as death knights get not one, but two different power bars underneath their character portraits -- one bar for runes and one for "runic power" -- it just doesn't seem fair! I want a special bar and nifty combos too! Death knights are cool and all, but in my heart I want hunters to be cooler! If Blizzard announced today that Wrath of the Lich King will replace hunters' mana with rainbow-colored Pew-Pew-Powa, I would smile and read on about it eagerly before admitting to myself or anyone else that it may not be such a good idea.
I guess I'll just have to mark this little desire (or is it just envy?) for special hunta-powa as one of those "Oh wells" in life. Yeah, it would have been nice if it could have been possible, but alas, the rules aren't likely to get changed this late in the game. I think I'll just pretend that hunter mana isn't so much magical energy as it is a rough measure of cunning and preparation in battle, and I'll suggest any other hunter who doesn't like mana-usage do the same.
Filed under: Hunter, Analysis / Opinion, Odds and ends, Humor, Wrath of the Lich King, (Hunter) Scattered Shots
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 2)
Rob May 22nd 2008 6:59PM
So I guess when we buy ammo from the ammo vendor we are really buying a limited license to conjure a set number of arrows of a limited duration for a set purpose, and we are not to copy, distribute, or otherwise modify these arrows except to shove them into a mob with deadly force?
Aigarius May 22nd 2008 7:09PM
Considering how you cann't go up to a boss after a long fight and get at least some of those 500 arrows you shot into him back out to reuse ... yes.
Heilig May 22nd 2008 8:17PM
Except that arcane shot, stings, and steady shot all use up an arrow each time they're cast and can't be cast without ammo in the paper doll slot.
Hurode May 22nd 2008 8:36PM
@Rob: It's just like Microsoft!
@Aigarius: The arrow thing has always bothered me. I will never understand why a hunter can't loot a mob once it's dead and get back at least, say, 25-40% of the arrows used on it. It seems like at least some would still be in perfect condition. And wouldn't hundreds of arrows being stuck in a boss slow it down at all?
Illirien May 22nd 2008 7:29PM
Arcane shot, obviously, deals arcane damage, as does volley, which is clearly a magical effect. However, it's not the arrows. You can buy the cheapest most simple arrows, or the most expensive time-shifting arrows, and the shots you do with them are exactly the same. I've always just naturally assumed that as you fire off an 'arcane shot' or a 'serpent sting' you put an enchantment on the arrow or bullet as you're aiming and firing. As far as aimed or steady shots, using them would involve the same sort of magical concentration as many spells use.
Krush May 22nd 2008 7:41PM
Or, on the other hand, if the mana system ain't broke, should we really even think about fixing it...
But it IS broken, specially to any hunter under level 64 after patch 2.4... (and only 'working' for levels 64-70 after the Aspect of the Viper recent 'fixes').
Its broken too, as I'd bet this is not going to be the first time that Blizzard adjusts mana regen (or something else related to mana) and it will balance most of the mana classes except for Hunters...
FancyRat May 22nd 2008 8:37PM
For the record, I agree with the "Hunters should be on energy" thing. The real problem is that it would be a HUGE change for just one class, and that talents, gear, and abilities would need a massive overhaul.
Having said that, I move on to the real issue. With regards to the mana issue introduced in 2.4, everyone's (and I mean EVERYONE'S) recommended that I use Aspect of the Viper. There's only one problem there. I'M FUCKING LEVEL 40! Not all hunters are endgame raiders for Chrissakes! #19 up there is the only one anywhere that I've seen who recognizes this. This. Needs. To. Be. Fixed.
Now.
FancyRat May 22nd 2008 8:38PM
Whoops, meant #20.
TonyMcS May 26th 2008 8:45PM
I have no problem with using mana and like a number of other posters I assumed I was applying magic to the shots that used it and using mana for the various aspects. Face it, Hunters do both physical and magical damage, so what's the problem with mana?
As to running out of mana, I have the same feeligns as a druid tank trying to build rage or as a fire mage running out of mana. A hunter out of mana can still cause physical damage and there's always the pet as well so this "limitation" seems to be a normal part of the game.
Landmark May 23rd 2008 5:53AM
Hunters need mana to dps. In order to get mana, they have to lower their dps by adding points into Intellect, an otherwise useless trait. I don't see rogues stacking spirit in order to get a decent energy bar. Why do hunters have to do it?
I concede that the mana system works, most of the time. But hunters running out of mana is obviously a widespread problem. Blizzard needs to give hunters passive abilities or better gear to get our mana back. AoV is just not good enough.
baronzemm May 23rd 2008 4:30PM
with all these complaints about mana I wonder how many people have ever raided with a ret paladin.
Its infinite mana for BM with hawk up.
Its near infinite mana for Marks with hawk up. Maybe 1 pot per fight at worst.
So it seems like its either everything or nothing. In bgs im almost constantly oom running viper, in raids im constantly at 90% or higher mana.
I think hunters are on the edge as far as mana use / cost goes. Changing it a little bit one way or the other would have very drastic effects as it is currently possible to have infinite mana in a party setting with appropriate buffs.
The arrow thing, just about every class has raid consumables. Back in the MC days if you spent 1g per stack on arrows you were still spending less money than priests did on candles. What you spend in arrows soloing you make up for in lack of repairs from taking damage.
ThorinII May 23rd 2008 10:22AM
I have to agree that the mana setup sucks right now. But, the energy bar is not the solution. I agree with those who said the shot rotation and keeping shots going would be made worse. I don't know what the fix is, but I sure don't want to go energy.
As for being able to pull arrows out of dead mobs, they don't let you do that because no one would use guns/bullets if they got to reuse arrows. I think hunters should have the ability to make their own ammo, in which case recovering used arrows and bullet shells could be done. When recovering arrows one would get x% back when looting a downed mob. When recovering shells, one would see a "pile" or "piles" of shells on the ground to loot and get x% back as well. The arrows would have to be repaired and the bullet shells repacked. Both would take a consumable of wood/metal, but would cost less than buying new or making them from scratch. Also, one would be able to repair/repack recovered ammo without the need of fire or anvil so you could replenish at least some of your ammo on the go. Just like conjuring food/water while everyone is resting between mobs/bosses. New ammo from raw mats would require fire or anvil or something to that affect so you still have to "ammo up" before you leave town.
Off topic: We should be able to tame our own mounts at lvl 40 after paying for riding lessons and doing a chain of quests just like the ones we do at lvl 10 for taming pets.
vanye111 May 23rd 2008 2:24PM
"Off topic: We should be able to tame our own mounts at lvl 40 after paying for riding lessons and doing a chain of quests just like the ones we do at lvl 10 for taming pets."
That would be nice, but Blizzard apparently got lazy - druids have a neat quest chain to get a) bear form, b)aquatic form, and c) cure poison, but cat form? Go to trainer, turn into a cat. No cool "go speak to the great Cat spirit" quest for dpscat, no quest to get the cheetah/travel form, nothing.
Personally, I'd just be happy to tame a mount without a quest :-P I want one of those ashenvale or azshara stags...
Annilektra May 23rd 2008 10:55AM
I agree with most everyone statements that the idea of no mana is apealling at first glance but is not really a good idea. First off we would have to revamp all hunter talents, armor and weapons. Then we would have to rethink the way we play hunters, then what is the point we would have a whole new class and no longer be the hunters that we love.
I think that the best why to solve the problem is just not call it mana. It would have the same basic concept so it does not interfere with our shot rotations. The mana useage works just fine for our purposes and running out of it is just a fact of life whether its mana, rage or energy we still have to wait for it to regenerate. Mana has the advantage of being able to have more by getting better gear and enchants.
Just close your eyes and imagine that it is called "Aiming focus" or something like that.
elyx May 23rd 2008 11:17AM
Its really tough to say while the idea of changing over to energy seems valid given the idealisms the a lot of hunters put forth, I can also see how mana can fit as well, and given the mammoth time that would have to be put into restructuring skills, talents, equipment (all of it, mind you), and just about everything else in the game, by the time you got done I would say your class would probably be far removed from what it is now, enough that you may not enjoy playing it as you do now. Not for sure, but that's a lot of changing!
In relation to mana efficiency, welcome to the same boat that many classes are plagued with your not the only ones who have to curtail your dps output due to mana usage. Mages DPS is almost completely centered around mana useage, while just about every class that has a blue bar relies on careful consumption of mana. Ask any pally tank 5 minutes into the fight how much he would like some changes to his mana useage J. Or a mage. Or a priest healing said pally tank blizz has defined mana as their method of controlling DPS (and healing) for certain classes, hunters being one of many (oh ya, forgot shamans in the mix ), so based on how much blizz actually uses mana as a control factor, and its complete immersion in the framework of the game, including hunters, and I don't see it changing any time soon.
But, looking at the bright side, using mana also means that you have access to many mana regeneration methods that rogues and warriors don't have. Ask any warrior what it feels like to be in the DPS slot, and have rage issues we cant just ask the shaman to drop a rage totem, nor can we pull agro and get hit for more rage we just have to wait. Same with rogues. Sounds familiar huh? Oh ya, and in relation to wanding, there are Cooldowns that a caster has to deal with that can seriously cut into their dps, especially if they have to switch targets frequently. Imagine being a shadow priest on the lynx boss in ZA, and having to stop casting and pew every 10 sec or so on those silly totems, there's a lot of dps lost in those cycles for them. Hunter? Tab target, continue autoshoot. Not griping, just giving you a point of comparison from a casters point of view
And I quick note to the minor QQ'er above your not the only one who wears chain, friend, be careful when you gripe. Shamans wear mail as well, and many of us are in the thick of melee range where we are taking more damage then you. (aoe, spells, whatever). And everyone in the raid uses pots, flasks, consumables, whatever. My shaman and druid both use mana oil, as well as wizard oil. My Rogue has poisons, which cost to make (and FYI, poison IS a big part of our overall dps, so its not an 'option' any more then mana oil is for you) The two areas I think are fair for comparison, and possible frustration, are ammo and pet food (hate trying to find easy resources for my odd pets on me hunter). Hunters are in the same boat as everyone else, don't try to special yourself out.
Gimmlette May 23rd 2008 11:17AM
I guess I see our use of mana versus something else is, we take a commodity like bullets and attach a magical effect onto it to make it stronger. This reasoning doesn't quite work with all shots, Steady and Aimed come to mind, but with poisoned or arcane, I'm applying something additional to the bullet and that effect could be considered magical. In the case of Multi-shot, I'm taking one bullet and magically subdividing it into three. It still doesn't completely work with the concept of mana as used by mages et. al., but it sort of justifies having a blue bar instead of a yellow or red one.
For me, the changes in the mana pool have forced me to look at how I use mana and my shot rotation. As BRK has said, if you're grinding at level 70 and you're consistently out of mana, you're not doing something quite right.
In a long fight, however, lack of mana becomes a huge problem. On the other hand, watching that blue bar disappear and knowing the boss is only at 52% makes me think about what pots or shots I can use while I regenerate some of that. I have become much more creative in my use of traps and shot rotations because of this.
I'm not complimenting Blizzard on changing the class I play in order to get me to think differently. I would prefer a return to pre-2.4 mana pools and less reliance on Intellect in armor. I'm just not sure what was intended by these changes. It certainly hasn't added to our class or made us over-powered, nor did it change any perceived imbalance in the hunter versus rest of WOW world.
@Thorin II has an excellent idea for ammo and mounts and I'd like to be able to put my ammo bag inside a bag to get that extra bag slot everyone else has. To me, those are more pressing "problems" than monkeying with our mana pool. But if there is one thing we all should know, Blizzard doesn't always do things that make any sort of sense.
jbodar May 23rd 2008 7:53PM
Same with traps, that Hunters can "conjure" to cause elemental damage. Or telepathic control of their pet. Or bullets that drain mana.
That's more magical than warriors or rogues, where they mostly aside from a few skills (like Thunderclap or Shadowstep), try to explain skills using physical attacks, like bleeds, stuns, heinously powerful strikes, etc.
DARK LORD May 24th 2008 11:05AM
Thax for the video
Luceyn May 25th 2008 1:25AM
personally i'd have to agree with the OP. I've debated the change with friends and always come back to "atm the game is 100% geared to mana-using hunters". Mana allows us higher burst than an energy/rage system would give. Also, you look at hunters abilities/skills and you get a weird dichotomy. We use mana, so our abilities are spells by definition, BUT the only ones effected by silences are our aspects, Trackings, MD, and Scare Beast. PLUS, fd uses spell hit (overlooked bug?), but our shots dont use Spell haste/hit/crit, they all use physical hit/crit/ap/haste. Again, our cast attacks and GCD are effected like a caster with regards to spell haste, yet we get it from physical haste, Whereas melee just see a flat spd boost from physical haste.
*shrug* hunter are neither a caster nor a physical class... we're a hybrid without a focus, place, or itemization...
meh /endrant&rave