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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsAsk WoW Insider: Casual Raiding -- does it exist?
by Mark Crump 
May 26th 2008 at 9:00AM
Welcome to today's edition of Ask WoW Insider, in which we publish your questions for dissection by the peanut gallery -- now with extra snark and commentary by one of our writers. This week Anonymous writes in:
A long, long time ago I dinged level 70. At that time I was in a guild that only had a select group of level 70 players and we tried to make the best of what we had. I had tons of fun discovering all the level 70 dungeons, and finally also the heroics, as a tank (which I rolled due to the tank-shortage). After a while our guild started to attract more level 70 players and we started raiding Kara. Something we never expected to happen since we were nothing like a raiding guild. After clearing Kara we soon moved up to ZA which we cleared with the regular 10 people we pretty much always ran raids with. After this many people started aching for 25mans, and we merged with another guild. We downed Gruul on our first try, piece of cake. Then things started to go bad. We were raiding casually, 2 to 3 nights a week of Kara and ZA. Most people in our guild were casuals (only available about 1 to 2 nights a week to raid) who were really psyched we got a chance to raid. Of course we had a base of "hard-core" raiders. They wanted more and things started to bubble up. Then came the worst news ever, our guild would disband. Our guild leader couldn't do his tasks any more due to a busy schedule out of WoW and he didn't have fun in playing anymore.
Our guild disbanded and many players moved on. I as one of the casuals got left behind. We are all very over geared for the content we were raiding due to farming ZA and Kara for so long we could easily afford the new 2.4 badge loot and of course we'd have a lot of drops from ZA. Most people were easily accepted into MH/BT raiding guilds. However these end-game (even the SSC/TK raiding guilds on my realm) have requirements if you wish to raid, you need to attend at least 3 times a week. I, and a lot of other casuals, simply can't do this due to engagements besides WoW. I've gone on a quest to find a casual raiding guild. I had no luck.
First I applied to a guild that seemed okay with my requirements, however they didn't need more tanks and denied me. After a while a spot for a tank came up, but they just aren't progressing, at all, so I declined. I couldn't bear the thought of raiding Kara or ZA one more time, I wanted 25man content. So I joined another guild, which turned out to be total chaos. Sure, I could raid there, but when they raided it took all night to down one boss, I left. Now I've joined another guild, which draws a line between "Casual" and "Raider" like many other guilds tend to do. As a casual (even though I'm geared as a raider) I won't get invited into any 25man raids apart from the "lower" content such as Gruul, which I've already seen one too many times. This guild is currently clearing MH/BT and were actually looking for an extra raiding tank, however I couldn't get invited into the raids being a casual (not even two nights a week) so they keep looking.
Now I ask you, WoW Insider, where do I find a freaking guild that makes me raid 25man content with the not so many nights a week I have? This is getting urgent, since I'm now finishing my Netherwing rep grind and have nothing else to do besides raiding in this game and it's starting to turn me away from a game I love playing.
Yours sincerely,
Anonymous.
I'm not sure exactly sure why you're not getting invited to raids: are they raiding on nights you can't raid, or, are the slots on nights you can raid going to those who raid more?
Finding a guild that's right for you is likely to take some legwork. While I've had good luck using my server's forums, I've never tried to find a raiding guild there. One other thought I had is doing doing a /who <instance> during the times that right for you, seeing what guilds raiding and checking out their web sites.
In answer to your subject: Does Casual Raiding Exist? Yeah, it does. My guild is fairly casual and we are working our way through the 25-mans. That said, if you're in my guild and can't raid weekends, you're pretty much screwed.
That said, I'm sure the regular raiders will have much better ideas, so I'll turn the floor over to them.
Got questions? Don't wait! Send them to us at ask AT wowinsider DOT com and your query could be up in lights here next week.
Filed under: Guilds, Raiding, Ask WoW Insider
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Razhlok May 26th 2008 3:35PM
@14
We pretty much skipped over Vashj/Kael in favor of gearing up a bit more. We took Vashj to Phase 3 prior to 2.4 and never took any swipes at Kael. We plan to pick up with Vashj again this week and start in on Kael attempts shortly there after. But, I appreciate your concern. Hopefully, then we'll be okay in your eyes. Because I need your validation in order for me to feel like I have accomplished anything in a pretend world.
Bysshe May 26th 2008 11:08AM
All these people who say that the only way to do top-tier raid content is by joining a "serious" guild or raiding coalition are entirely wrong, dear reader. Check out Wildly Inept Raiding on Earthen Ring (http://www.wildlyinept.org/): they're currently doing Hyjal and Black Temple and they only raid 3 nights a week (Tuesdays, Thursdays and Sundays).
If WIR can do it, other guilds can do it. People who say it can't be done are just closed-minded and self-important.
Solex May 26th 2008 11:16AM
I don't have any pity for casuals... that said. You're probably not getting into these because most guilds aren't going to bother to gear anyone up who's going to show up for two hours a night maybe twice a week, simply because they can hold out for someone else who may either be better geared/ have 25 man experience/ can make all the raid dates consistently. This isn't taking into account your gear or skill anything like that. Also you're still fresh and some of those fights aren't tank friendly like vashj, al'ar or leo.
With that said on my server Cho'gall because of the amount of end game raid guilds 9 horde in sunwll 3 horde? Those vanquish guys. We're usaully able to pug ssc/tk.
The other interesting thing they do is Independance, as I understand it there's a central guild and one guy who coordinates things, its supposed to good for guys who're casual or want to get into 25 man's but don't have the people for it. You might want to see if your server has something like that.
Look on the bright side in wotlk you can go in and 10 man the crap out of Arthas... anyone can because 25 mans won't be worth anything anymore -_-
Mity May 26th 2008 11:45AM
well look, who wants to have 23 friends and yrself in a raid for 4-5 hours to gear up a guy that will not be present for the major part of the raids?
its a waste of gear, frankly, if u want to progress.
gear is not epeen or looks or smthn, its tools to kill new bosses and get to more complex content easier.
for a guild to invite someone who has low attendance is like paying full price for a car that works only weekends...why waste the money?
that said, there are guilds made up of ppl with families and ppl with nitejobs, that raid saturdays & sundays, and holidays. some of which are quite good as well.
if there is none on the server yr on, find a new server, with one, and join them.
Dave May 26th 2008 12:01PM
This is the exact sort of guild I'm most likely going to attempt to start once the expansion ships and/or my server gets free transfers.
My server is too heavy into PVP, and there are a lot of hardcore progression "floaters" who just hop around from guild to guild if their current guild fails to "progress" for a week. Somewhat annoying.
So, I'd like to start up a group of people who will do all the things my guild currently doesn't. I don't care how difficult it is, I need a guild that I can count on to have decently dedicated people, or at least a guild leader interested in setting a direction and goal for a guild and having the persistence to keep finding new people interested in contributing in some way.
I know the concept can work, but it's impossible on my server from what I've come to find out.
Dieirdra May 26th 2008 12:18PM
There are guilds that raid less than others, my guild raids 5 nights a week with adult raiders and we require 50% attendance, which is only a smidgeon over 2 nights a week. There are also TK and SSC pugs on my server and I'm waiting to see MH pugs.
Guilds are starting to struggle with filling 25 mans with summer here and the expansion due soon. I'd go applying to serious raiding guilds that are desperate for tanks and see if they are willing to take you for the 2 nights you can play. I think you will find a guild.... Start by looking on your own server, but if that doesnt work, do a cross server transfer and start pugging heroics to meet people. Good tanks are always in demand and you will be added to people's friends list if you're pugging and decent. As you make friends you can start asking around about guilds and something will come your way.
Good luck,
D
Dillon May 26th 2008 12:16PM
Eh, WoW has been becoming more and more casual.
You can raid 3 nights a week and be in BT. You can pug SSC/TK assuming you get decent players. I don't know why guilds even consider Kara a raid ... it's just UBRS 2.0. A well geared group can clear it in 2.5 hours. A casual pug group (with people who can play) normally does it in 3-4 hrs.
WoW has become really boring ... content is doled out incredibly slowly, the storyline progression is slow and not that interesting ... Makes me miss AC.
Chris May 26th 2008 12:26PM
Transfer to Llane. Casual raiding guilds out the @$$ over here... unfortunately.
Swarfy May 26th 2008 12:49PM
My guild has an association of sorts with another guild. Our raiding happens on the weekend because that works for 90% of the player base. Our progression night is on Saturday. We've cleared Kara, 4/6 ZA, Gruul's, and Mags. Friday and Sundays are our badge/alt runs through Kara, OR if enough people want to we go do ZA.
We are planning on taking our first steps into the eye after the GM of the other guild gets back (He's military and has been training in the middle of the desert for the last two weeks.) Casual guilds do exist, they are just very few between from what I've seen.
Some people i know split off from a guild that say they are casual but have raids going six nights a week, three of those are their scheduled raiding nights, and the other three are kara/za runs which you have to attend at least one kara/ZA and at least two scheduled raiding nights a week. Not casual by any means especially when they pull in Alt's to fill out the Kara/ZA's of people that don't want to go but get threatened that if they don't go on their alt they could lose their raiding rank. (I told them to stick it up their a$$es a long time ago, When they told(ordered is more like it) me to respec my priest for healing to heal a five man or get gkicked. I quit without even answering.)
Sydera May 26th 2008 1:34PM
This might sound off the wall, anonymous, but I suggest you respec to dps if you have the gear for it (which you probably do or will from all that farming).
One thing I've observed from being an officer in a raiding guild--one with NO attendance requirement and no distinction between "raiders" and "casuals" is that the burden of regular attendance falls most heavily on the prot warriors. Tanking is the most difficult role to play in a raid, particularly as the content gets more complex (I am a druid healer dating a tank, and I've heard the swearing). You need practice and gear to do so effectively. Additionally, the whole raid's success begins with the tanks. Moreover, the number of tanks (and type) is determined by the encounter's mechanics. One extra--or one less--tank means that your raid will not be successful. Once in the raid, every tank has to perform to his utmost. If one healer dc's during a fight, or one dps pulls threat and gets himself killed, you can still win. There is no margin for error with the tank. Therefore, most guilds are careful with their tank loots and will only let them go to people who can be at every raid. This is only right--most tanks get loot priority (though ours don't) and that pays them back for the time investment asked of them. Tanks also must lay out a ton of money and badges for resist gear. Our two prot warriors each bought a frost and nature set for Hydross, and our dps warriors each bought one of the sets just in case of emergencies. Both prot warriors saved badges for a fire set for Kael'thas phoenix adds as well.
Dps has more flexibility. You could almost certainly find a TK/SSC guild willing to take on a 2 days per week sort of player. Put out an ad in the WoW Guild Recruitment forum and you should be offered some choices. As Dps, you are more interchangeable with other players and will not have to play as often. We have dps who can raid twice a week, once a week, or once every four weeks, and we manage to fit them in almost every time they sign up. Don't have a fury warrior today? Take an extra rogue. But T6 content especially is not forgiving on the question of extra tanks. You simply cannot take a third prot warrior most of the time, at least not until the raid as a whole outgears an encounter by a significant margin.
Ihsahnas Jun 4th 2008 5:22PM
My observations of a 'progressive' casual raiding guild...
1. It tends to be smaller (i.e. ~35 regulars, maybe another 15-20 light players) if its focused on actually progressing endgame content instead of dabbling. As other commenters have noted, these encounters need to be learned, and they can't be learned if the player base is too big and ever-shifting.
2. It's hard for newcomers to break in to a successful casual raiding guild, mainly because turnover is likely low. So, either do a friends & family link, or be creative and colourful with your application.
3. The whole point of a casual raiding guild (IMHO) is to make acquaintances (or even friends) with a pile of people and share endgame experiences. But you have to assume the guild owes you nothing, it just is a forum for you to help others experience endgame content, and for you to experience it. There can't be a lot of room for epeen wars or attitude -- that's to be expected if you're on a 5-6 night raiding schedule, but just can't fly when there's leniency. Of course, ego is inevitable to some degree, but it needs to balance out.
4. You need to step up and try to make acquaintances with the tiered players & officers via helping alts out, doing 5 mans, etc. -- otherwise you won't be noticed and are less likely to make the raid list. Your contributions are what get you to experience endgame content. As you gain rank with the guild, you can shift your contribution towards the raids themselves and less on the "extracurricular" activities. Unless you play too much. ;-)
Our guild raids 3 nights a week, and some of us can only make 2 of those nights. Some people show up late due to work. Our guild leadership is quite lenient. Yet we've cleared SSC, TK, Hyjal and are half-way into BT. The guild has plenty of other activities (5 mans and Kara runs all week) but they're entirely optional and mostly badge runs.
Loot system is SuicideKings, which tends to be good for a casual guild (though it isn't perfect). The tradeoff is that either we are in "farm" mode, slowing down progression, or we are spending many nights on progression content (which means little loot and lots of repair bills). This requires a generally positive attitude towards wipes and learning, because some weeks you won't get the loot to offset the pain.
Bolgrom May 26th 2008 1:59PM
One thing you can do is make yourself more marketable. In your non-raiding time (bored at work perhaps?) you can read up on tanking strats for different bosses, go read tankspot.com and elitistjerks.com forums to make yourself the best tank possible (15 stamina gems FTW!). While in between raid guilds, go farm up resist gear (frost or nature for hydross, fire resist if you're a pally for a'lar and antherion and shadow resist for Mother). These attributes might offset your schedule issues in the minds of raid/guild leaders. Good luck!
Bolgrom
Sum durids is bare
Trospar May 26th 2008 3:35PM
"Casual Raiding Guild" is difficult to define as it can mean many things. Does it mean your schedule is casual? Are raids even scheduled? Are there attendance requirements? Gear requirements? It could mean anything.
Vex (http://www.wowvex.net) on Thunderlord is what you might call a casual raiding guild. Not quite though.
A more accurate description would be that we are a raiding guild with no raid attendance requirements. You aren't punished if you don't raid but we still require our members to be good raiders. Due to our lack of attendance requirements it means we have to have a larger raiding base than other guilds out there and our progress isn't as fast as the top guilds.
We just killed Vashj last week as we wanted to become better raiders and finish what we started. The confidence boost from beating the hardest boss in the game is pretty good too. We are 6/6 SSC, 3/4 TK, 1 BT, 1 Hyjal.
One side effect of our guild structure is that we have alot of older (ie mature) players that have lives outside of the game. It makes for a solid and well organized guild.
Longbow May 26th 2008 6:55PM
"serioud" guild doesn't have to raid 5 days a week. we are "casual" raiders. 1/3 of the guild lives in Australasia. we (can only) raid 2 days a week (server Fri/Sat). we are 5/5 in hyjal and 8/9 in bt. we had 7 min to spare on bear runs. we have no more than 35 ppl on roster, and we only had to call it off once in last year because of lack of ppl.
you need to find a group of people that's equally "serious" about the game as you, on a similar schedule, and willing to do whatever that's possible within the limited time frame. it won't be easy, but it's doable.
Poe May 26th 2008 8:38PM
Your problem isn't that different from people who can only raid on weekends from 4am - 8am. Your schedule is different from the guilds you've tried. It's true that a lot of guilds raid more than you'd like. In worst case, try starting your own!
Go to the guild recruitment forums and post your schedule; see whether any guild's fits yours. My friends and I had our own idea of a schedule; twice per week at set times. A year later, we're finally in MH/BT. :)
It will probably help you a lot if you can set aside certain days/times per week, and stick to them. Just like you'd set aside regular time for soccer league, pottery class, knitting circle, etc.
Kyostal May 26th 2008 8:46PM
I'm a member of a "casual" raiding guild that both Poe and Razhlok are officers of. A lot of us are devoted WoW players that simply don't have the time to devote to raiding 4-5 days a week, due to things like college classes (personally I'm an engineering student, limiting my playtime on some weeks) and quite a few of us are married, etc.
Like Poe said, the real trick is just finding a group of players that play at the same times as you in the same situation. While it may be harder to find a good guild when your time is limited, the upside I've found is that guild cohesion seems to be much greater, as the rest of the guild tends to be more understanding when life happens than a more hardcore guild. When I only have 8-10 hours a week to devote to raiding, I want to make damn sure I like the people I'll be wiping with on progression nights.
Don't forget to check other servers, now that you can do a paid transfer it may be well worth the extra money to get into a guild that matches your level of time available and goals.
Belle May 27th 2008 5:53AM
Our guild is raiding 25-man instances and doing it 3 times per week. Our raids start at 20:00 and we usually don't raid after 23:00-23:30. We started raiding at the end of March(from Gruul) and recently we downed Leotheras(5th boss in SSC), Rage and Anetheron(1st and 2nd bosses in MH) on our 2nd tries. And...we don't use dkp, we roll for all the items.
MartinC May 27th 2008 7:01AM
I find it interesting that most people seem to think you have to get into a guild before you can raid. Maybe it's atypical, being on an RP server where people are more friendly and mature, but on my server, most raid groups are not of the "you must join our guild first" mentality. Most raid groups are simply a collection of people from different guilds that have common goals, common timeframes, and play well with each other. This works extremely well, as the whole guild drama thing is nonexistent. The only requirement is that you show up on time and do your job well.
If you make a good impression and are consistent, you might get a guild invite later, but that's really a side thing. There is no requirement or pressure that you join the guild.
It does seem very odd to me that some guilds require you to join them *before* you have even played with them once. Who on earth wants some stranger to join their group, only to leave a week after because of some crazy personality conflict or such. For our group, if you group with us a few times, we gauge that you know what you are doing, are mature and fun, get along with everyone, then and only then might you get a guild invite. This creates a much stronger guild. People who join never leave, because it's a mutual benefit, they enjoy playing and being associated with us, and we enjoy playing and being associated with them.
So the whole "How do I find a casual raiding guild?" question seems odd to me, as what I would do is just find a group that raids the times you are looking for, and join in with them. Say raid with group/guild A on Monday nights, then group/guild B on Sunday afternoons. Simple. Any guild that requires you to join them before raiding with them is not worth your time (as a casual raider).
Cynra May 27th 2008 10:09AM
Glad you pointed that out, MartinC; I've always found it laughable that people require or expect a certain guild tag in order to raid. Perhaps it's because I'm also on an RP server (Feathermoon US myself), but I have absolutely no problems raiding with people outside of my guild tag. In fact, that works out wonderfully well for me since I am an admittedly avid roleplayer and I tend to join guilds that are big on roleplay but tend to not focus on end-game content too much. However, between two characters I've managed to see content up-to-but-not-including the Sunwell -- and with never having been a member of any of the guilds hosting the raids.
When raiding with these people, I find that we continue to raid mostly because of friendships and not because we're relying on a guild tag to keep us together. I've done the whole raid forty hours a week thing in a guild with people I loathed but raided with anyways because it needed to be done, but looking back I didn't enjoy that at all. It was like working, but I sure as hell wasn't being paid for it!
So good points! Perform well, find a group of like-minded individuals, and have fun seeing and downing new content with people you like!
Cynra May 27th 2008 9:06AM
The definition of casual changes from person to person. Some people who raid forty-plus hours a week might think three nights a week is casual!
I'm a hardcore-turned-casual-omigawd-I'm-raiding-five-nights-a-week-again-phew-I-just-cut-it-back-down-to-three raider. In other words, I've run the gamut since raiding first became available in the game. From what I can see, your definition of casual is dependent on how many nights a week you raid.
I can say that you can be ridiculously successful raiding a single night a week if people prepare during the week (by acquiring consumables, gathering gear, and researching fights and optimal builds) and are focused -- especially given the number of nerfs that have occured over the past year and a half in order to appeal to the so-called casual gamer player base. My hunter's raid is mostly with a wonderful group of dedicated individuals who raid only one night a week (mind you, for five hours!). We switch between Serpentshine Cavern and Tempest Keep each week. Within a month, they were 4/6 and 3/4. We're currently looking to step into Hyjal or Black Temple, though we want to down Vashj and Kael'Thas first. That doesn't prevent us from researching and planning boss fights now.
Anyways, if you're looking for something similar to that, go for it! If you can't find one, start the raid up; there are plenty of people who want to see end-game content and only have one night a week to dedicate to a raid. However, keep in mind that even though it's a casual raid you should stress the fact that preparation occurs during the week and shouldn't hinder progress.