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The latest patch 5.4 newsBreakfast Topic: Do you pay attention to 25-man progression?
by Daniel Whitcomb 
May 28th 2008 at 8:00AM
I was having a discussion with my brother yesterday, and he was telling me that he really doesn't pay attention much to the raid game anymore. Back in Everquest, he used to be a pretty hardcore raider, part of a giant guild that could field raids of 100 or more people, ready to track down and kill bosses the minute they spawned (since they were never instanced, you only got kill each boss around once per a week on each server). Because so many people were needed, and you might not even get to kill some bosses some weeks because other groups would beat you, you might go months without loot.
Because of this, he says, he doesn't really care any more about server firsts or world firsts. The 25 man raids don't really interest him, and he doesn't feel like 25-man raiders are worthy of respect. They get loot at a much faster rate than he ever did, and even if they don't get the drop they want, they still get badges. There's probably other people like him. There's also other people who may ignore 25-mans because it really doesn't affect them. They run their 5 mans, maybe an occasional Karazhan, and they really don't care what people do beyond that.
Me, I tend to like to follow the 25-man raid scene. I enjoy hearing about world firsts, and I keep abreast of what guilds are doing on my server, as well. Our server forums have a progression post that almost everyone knows about and is regularly updated so that we always know who's killing what, and I'm always eager to hear who's killed what in Sunwell Plateau right now.
Why this is I can't really pin down in one reason. Perhaps this is in part because I used to be a raider, and still like to know what's going on in that part of the game. Perhaps it's because the main 25-man raid group of my guild alliance is one of the top on our server, having a few server seconds and thirds. But whatever it is, following raiding exploits has always been part of playing MMORPGs for me. I like to know what my server is doing, and how they're doing compared to everyone else.
So here's my questions: Do you follow world raiding progression? Do you follow your server's raiding progression? If you do, Why do you think you're interested in them, especially if you aren't taking part in them or aren't even in the raiding game? If not, why not? Is it just not your thing, or do you honestly think it's not worthy of any note that people have downed a raid boss for the first time?
Filed under: Realm News, Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Breakfast Topics, Instances, Raiding
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 4)
Elmo May 28th 2008 8:55AM
I do care about raiding.
My guild is just starting to poke Illidan (or his flames of Azzinoth to be more precise) and we're in some sort of unofficial competition with an other guild on the realm.
(they still struggle with the Essence of Anger while they were in BT earlier :3)
and World firsts do deserve some sort of nerdish respect imo.
Arioch May 28th 2008 8:57AM
Nope, don't really care who has done what. I've done raiding, and it's fun to experience the content, but in terms of actually getting loot it's a boring grind just like everything else. To stay on with a raiding guild means showing up for raid times, and it's like having a second job. Which means if you're interested in "fun", you might see Karazhan or a few of the newer low-end instances, but nothing above. So I couldn't care less.
Doug DeJulio May 28th 2008 8:57AM
I do not pay attention to world raid progression. I do not pay attention to server raid progression. I do not pay attention to Lithuanian soccer scores. I do not pay attention to the weather in Kyoto. I do not pay attention to lottery rewards in Wisconsin.
It's all pointless crap. Doesn't affect me in any conceivable way. There's no reason to pay attention to any of it, and it's not even remotely entertaining or interesting.
Alchemistmerlin May 28th 2008 10:27AM
If it doesn't have any affect on you, why do you sound so angry?
Chriasas May 28th 2008 9:03AM
You can either be a casual guild, and be lax on talking rules, start times, etc, or you can be serious about 25 man content. This wasn't always an issue, we sometimes had a waiting list for MC and always had a waiting list for ZG. FOr Gruul, these days, however, we see more tardiness or outright blowing off of the raid. It usually takes longer to get the raid going than it does to kill Maulgar. It just seems that post BC, you have to be a rules lawyer about basic ideas such as attendence and tardiness. All we ask is that if you sign up for the raid, you show up, or you cancel your spot prior to the raid. It's hard to even get that these days. I think it may be a case of the pre-expansion apathy. We saw it with BC, and we're seeing it again.
Phil May 28th 2008 9:13AM
I follow it in the same way that someone who's only vaguely interested in sports follows sports. I know some of the names, I recognize their achievements in downing bosses, but at the same time, I know I can't do what they do so it doesn't really concern me that much.
I wouldn't go so far as to say I don't respect them, like the OP's brother, but I don't rabidly follow it.
And as for my own server - I'm not even sure my server's (Korialstrasz-US) guilds rank anywhere. They can feel free to prove me wrong.
bmiller May 28th 2008 11:55AM
Hey- I'm a fellow Kori player. I learned of Wrecked first by their tricks at summoning stones. Later I found out they were one of the top guilds on the server.
Zukers May 28th 2008 9:14AM
Well I look at 25man content as a goal. I look forward to 25 man runs and having larger efforts of coordination between fellow gamers. I like the logic more the merrier and i do miss the old 40 man runs. with them taking these things down to 10 man runs things seem less of a big event and more trivial.
back in the day 40 mans meant something it was a big deal now you can slap together a 10man pug zipity do da no big deal come get your epics noobs.
Yada Blah May 28th 2008 9:16AM
Outside of my own servers's progression, I don't pay much attention. Really, props to all those guys who go for world firsts, etc., but they don't really help or hinder my guild any.
Boon May 28th 2008 9:25AM
It's supposed to be an MMO, not a one player game. 25 man raiders deserve respect as they are pushing the content, not just losing 10 arena games a week.
The people who made the game famous are now being exiled.
Yossarian May 28th 2008 11:00AM
Hah. What a bunch of elitist crap. The people who made this game famous are....Blizzard. Or, you know, the 95% of the player base that DOESN'T hardcore raid, given that a large part of its fame is the extremely large player base.
Calaana May 28th 2008 9:27AM
I follow my servers progression, give grats to mile stones, don't really care about anything else.
thain May 28th 2008 9:29AM
Ive got a secret about a 100 man raid. It means you have 5-10 people who know what they are doing and the other 90 can basically be as intellegent as a rock and still win the raid.
The larger the size of the raid the less that is expected of the random members of it. If anyone of the 100 people could cause the entire raid to wipe with 1 wrong step then it would never succeed just becuase of the law of averages. However if 1 person decides to move on Shade of Aran's flame wreath you likely have a wiped raid. 25 mans gives a fairly good compromise between the effort of simply mustering enough people and having those people each be essential in a raid fight. For example vash, it has SEVERAL things happening on phase 2, and if ANYONE fails at their role its very likely a wipe.
While 100 man raid leaders could be commended on their dedication,recruitment and logistical abilities, chances are the number of people the raid hinges on being more than a d-cell battery on a spell button is likely between 10-30. So I don't buy that 25 mans are less worthy of respect.
PS. Its not something against EQ or whatever, if you look at WoWs 40 mans you see ALOT more of expendable raid members. MC was an excellent example of ecounters designed around 5 people doing the right thing at the right time, and 35 people hitting their 1 and 2 button until it fell off.
Heike May 28th 2008 10:11AM
^This
Yes, WoW players can gear up a lot faster and there's not the same kind of competition for bosses as there was in EQ (I raided and enjoyed EQ) - but actually killing raid boss in WoW and learning the strats takes far more skill than an any EQ boss.
I don't follow my general server's progression - other than my own guild, I pay attention to the progression of my a couple friends and their guilds and that's it. But I'm solidly (and happily) at a level behind cutting-edge content, always the instance below the newest.
jbodar May 28th 2008 3:55PM
Seriously.
At what point did your brother become a crotchety old man, Daniel?
"Back in MY day, we'd camp bosses for days at a time, and when we finally killed them, they only dropped ONE piece of loot! And it wasn't very good loot anyway. Aaaannd we LIKED it!"
Seems to me like it is a better system to reward having skill as opposed to knowing the most people without lives. And I don't even raid.
thain May 28th 2008 9:33AM
I wouldn't say the dont help or hurt your progression ANY. Chances are if your not going for world firsts, you look up strats for boss fights, which are usually put together by people who you know, kill the boss.
Also if the rest of the world, Including sponsored guilds who fight a new boss for 40 hours its first week of existance are struggling with an encounter, then chances are the encounter will be nerfed, also helping your guild.
The opposite is also true, if someone finds a method to completely bypass the difficulty of a boss, be it by certain positioning or what have you. And you already used that strategy, theres a fair chance it will be changed.
Yada Blah May 28th 2008 2:21PM
True - the strats have to be written by someone, but from what I can tell, they aren't written by the same people claiming world/server firsts.
The bleeding edge guys are there simply to hit bleeding edge content and collect their sponsorships, if they're lucky.
Theadrick May 28th 2008 9:56AM
No... could care less.
Bloodtrip May 28th 2008 10:01AM
the only reason i follow it, is because i would like to know when Sunwell is on Farm status, so i can get a shot at buying that Phoenix Leather working chest patter. and i find it interesting to see what makes those boss fights so hard and stand out from the other instances.
Cheryl May 28th 2008 10:04AM
i used to belong to a large clan/alliance in Lineage 2, and the way raid bosses work, it's similar to EQ. The problem was, the larger the clan/core raid group was, the harder it was for the clan leader to even notice anyone's doing their job. undeserving people gets loot, people who worked hard and play their class great went unnoticed.
Of course, there was terrible leadership, but you can't deny the size of it didn't help. The raid bosses were hard, but at the end of the day didn't employ much more intelligence than simple tanking and spanking.
WoW's raid bosses are different in that aspect. it required at least some form of team work and ability to think quick on your feet. Relying on strategies may not be easy at times, thus this employs some leadership qualities...
and while i am not that interested in the rankings of my guild's progression versus the thousands of guilds out there, i am definitely much more aware when i am raiding - because i am required to.