Officers' Quarters: A crossroads for small guilds
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.Small, casual guilds often have it the toughest of all. They don't have the numbers to run the 25-player content. They often have only a small handful of tanks and healers. With such few resources, how do you attract anyone new in order to maintain any semblance of a guild after people quit? It looks like life may become much easier for these guilds once Wrath of the Lich King launches. But that puts all the small guilds at a crossroads of sorts. What, this week's e-mail asks, should they all do in the meantime?
Hello Scott,
I am an officer of a guild on the Llane server on the alliance side. Our guild has existed for the past 2 years and have been very casual and most of us have become good friends through the course of the game. [. . .]
We were clearing kara weekly at one point and since we are a very small guild, we only had 1 set of tanks and healers. The kara farming stopped when our Main Tank got all his drops and seeing that Kara was as far as we were going at that time, just stopped tanking to level an alt. He got bored and blamed us for not gearing up any other tanks.
We were recruiting actively at that time and got a few other tanks, but we never had any set times for raids. This killed the spirit for the people who were new and they moved on to other guilds. Of course this hurt our numbers and we finally got back to doing Kara about 3 months later with the core group's alts filling in the tank and healer roles. A note about our core group . . . we gelled so well that we used to do Moroes with no crowd control and 7 out of 10 players in blues and greens. The group just worked and we made the best out of it. With alts tanking and healing, we got to clear Kara.
About a month or two of that happening, we lost a few other core players who wanted to experience more content. [N]ow what's left of our guild is about 7 active people who just log on once in a while and we cant seem to get runs going.
I realize that our guild is come to the point where we need to just call it quits or do whatever we can pugging and stuff. [. . .] My question is, should we bother waiting for Wrath to kinda revamp our guild structure and do it right this time around, or just disband and go our separate ways?[. . .]
Thanks for your help and hope to hear from ya.
Peace
--K.
K, I hope you take some comfort from the fact that your guild is specifically the type that Blizzard set out to help when they decided to allow 10-player raids to parallel the 25s throughout the expansion. This is a huge boost to all the smaller guilds like yours out there who are struggling to keep it together.
It doesn't change the fact that your guild is specifically the type that Blizzard set out to destroy with The Burning Crusade. How on Earth did the game designers expect small guilds to survive when there was absolutely nothing new you could do once Nightbane and Prince Malchezaar were dead? I guess they figured the smaller guilds would all pair up like eighth graders at a formal dance. But a lot of them just sat around the edges of the dance floor, looking sad as all their friends got to tango with Kael'thas and Illidan.
Zul'Aman was touted as a fix, but it came out 11 months after Karazhan. The damage had already been done 10 times over. And even those small guilds who made it that far faced a long uphill battle trying to clear the zone, as some of the gear checks are quite unforgiving for Tier 4 guilds (and it's tough to catch up when most bosses only drop one piece of loot each).
But that's all ancient history now. The future is promising: Theoretically you can see all (or at least most) of the game's content with just 12-15 people. It's a far cry from the days of exploring the Molten Core with 39 of your closest friends. Some people hate the idea of small raids, but I'm not among them. Everyone has a different idea of what "massive" should mean in the MMO label. Soon, Warcraft players will be able to choose for themselves what it means rather than the game deciding for them. And that is a good thing.
But the Lich King still crafts his schemes in secret, and no one knows when the expansion pack will launch. So what should guilds like K's do while they wait?
No matter what you do, K, your guild should make the decision as a group. It's small enough that every single person should have a vote. The way I see it you have three options: (1) Wait it out, (2) Disband the guild, or (3) Join another guild as a group.
If you wait it out, you run the risk of losing even more core members. There's always the chance they'll come back later, but it's no guarantee. On the plus side, you'll retain control of your own destiny and there will actually be a guild for your wayward members to come back to.
Your second option is certainly the most drastic. Your guild will be finished, yet another victim of the 10-player to 25-player transition. But it gives each of you the best chance to find a new home where you'll be comfortable.
To me the third option is better than disbanding. Your core group clearly has great chemistry, so it would be a shame to part ways. And a larger guild could benefit a great deal from that chemistry. My guild has occasionally absorbed smaller guilds like yours, and it's always a bonus when those former members are able to attend the same raid. You put them in a group and give them the same assignment, and they get the job done.
Assuming you can find a guild that will take you en masse, you'll have the benefit of staying together with the advantage of seeing all the great content that has eluded you for the past year and a half. And if you're fortunate, you might find some chemistry with your new guild, too.
There are some inherent risks to this plan, however. Each guild has its own subculture and you never know how you'll fit in until you're there. You'll have to learn a whole new set of rules about raiding, loot, and so on, and some of your current members may not be as comfortable with these rules as others. They might decide it's not for them while the other half of you are enjoying the new environment -- and then you'll face another decision.
Just remember that nothing in this game is permanent. If you change your mind later, you can always reform your old guild. You might not get everyone back, but once Wrath launches, you'll have a much easier time recruiting for any role. Just keep your Web site operational, if you have one, or exchange e-mail addresses so all your former members will be able to find out what your plan is once the expansion goes live.
I'd like to hear from some other small guilds out there. What are you planning to do?
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Patch 5.4 patch notes
Virtual Realms feature revealed
The Proving Grounds are coming
The latest patch 5.4 news





Reader Comments (Page 2 of 2)
Theserene Jun 9th 2008 1:03PM
Our guild hit that point about a year ago.
What I did was completely refocus the guild and advertise it on the realm forums as a casual guild with an interest in visiting the old (pre-BC) content.
I never spammed trade, pretty much all of my recruitment has been via realm forums or word of mouth from joining PuGs and showing we are mature friendly players.
Now we are a healthy number. Most of the comments we get via recruitment are people saying how refreshing it is to see a non-raid guild advertising on the forums. For the casual player it can sometimes seem like guilds are only for PvP or end-game. Be the one that stands out :)
Hurode Jun 9th 2008 4:20PM
This is a great way to recruit members. Make posts on your realm forums advertising that you're looking for casual players to do some light endgame raiding and dabble in other fun content. PUG HEROICS - this is something I stress. I started a lowbie guild with some friends and we'd get 3-4 people then LFG for 1-2 more to pug with, and if they were guildless we extended the invitation. We did eventually collapse (due to all of us wanting to work on mains rather than alts) but the pug method of recruiting works great.
Cailleach Jun 9th 2008 1:07PM
From the comments, I'd say you are in good company. Two words: Guild Alliances. We're allied w/2 other smaller guilds, and have been since the good old ZG days, pre-BC. (is that B.C. BC or B.BC?) When we have enough active folks to run more than one Kara group, we do so within our guilds happily. When, like now, summer and the end of school sees a drop in attendance, we smoosh ourselves back into one alliance run. Any night where we get enough folks to run two of something planned for one, we do it, even if that means one Kara group and another running heroics.
Not only are we clearing Kara, but we're progressing in ZA and working, when we get 25 on, at Gruul. When NOT raiding, we have a larger group of non-pug members to run 5 man content, craft for one another, and generally hang out with. We made a shared chat channel between the guilds to keep up with each other, and use Guild Calendar on a shared channel to schedule.
The difference between this and option 3 above is that we all love our guilds, no matter how small. This lets us keep our identity and 'gang'. Saints are still Saints, Knights are still Knights, Assertus members are still Assertus. Not only has this staved off further member hemorraging that we experienced about 6 months after BC came out, but former guildies are missing us and coming back!
Lori Jun 9th 2008 1:20PM
Firstly, option 3 might work better if it was "find another small guild to merge with" rather than trying to fit, as a group, into a larger guild. This way everyone is on equal footing with the new people.
"It doesn't change the fact that your guild is specifically the type that Blizzard set out to destroy with The Burning Crusade."
I doubt very much Blizz set out to destroy any guilds. What reason would they have to do such a thing?
Wren Jun 9th 2008 1:21PM
We are experiencing the same problems with my guild. A mutiny happened about 5 weeks ago and we lost at least 1/3 of our 70s due to guild drama. Since then we have had trouble getting a kara group that really works well together. By the skin of our teeth we make it through the chess event every couple of weeks. A couple weeks ago our guildmaster started talking merger. I was against it because the last merger I got talked into ended in chaos after BC came out. For now our guild is holding together, we are recruiting a few here and there and are now allied (not merged) with a larger raiding guild. As for ZA, I have never considered it an option because I got my fill of trolls doing ZG 500 times. What is the next instant to be released? I can just see it now, introducing a "more-different" molten core rip off. Enough with the trolls Bliz!
Cynra Jun 9th 2008 1:28PM
While I think that this is a well-written article, I'm not sure if I agree with the statement that The Burning Crusade destroyted small guilds. Remember, pre-expansion end-game was initally 40-man and only dropped when Zul'Gurub and the Gates of Anh'Qiraj were available. Once you reached the exalted and mighty level of 60, there was little to do for end-game content other than run for your dungeon sets and then upgrade it to Tier 0.5 UNLESS you raided.
In other words, the problem existed BEFORE the expansion and the drop to 25-man did aleviate some of the problems (while creating more for those high-end progression guilds of old, sadly); twenty-five people were a solution that allowed smaller guilds to band together with less difficulties than I remember with 40-man raids. Mind you, Blizzard dropped the ball in not giving smaller guilds anything to do after forming to do Karazhan. I think that they were hoping that numbers would build up until they reached the critical mass required to beging 25-man content, but that failed for many people -- as noted in the letter.
Scott Jun 9th 2008 1:32PM
My guild encountered the same problem. We never planned on even going through Kara. Turned out, we did really well and stormed through it. When we came to the point of wanting to do more, we joined another guild. Now, we're all part of the guild Fury on the Draka realm and we're all doing great. We raid 1-3 times a week and just got Karathress down.
It's all about knowing what everyone wants and, if you choose, joining a guild with the same goals as you.
Good luck!
Sydera Jun 9th 2008 1:45PM
I'm in a raiding guild (4/5 Hyjal 1/9 BT, TK and SSC clear), and we started as two small casual guilds. We negotiated a merger and became one guild on Jan. 1. Most mergers, however, are disastrous. What we did going in was negotiate the terms and policies very carefully, which took us six weeks. In the meanwhile, we did allied Gruul's and Kara runs and let everyone socialize. The merger ended up being great. As it stands now, we've recruited a lot since then, and we have maybe 10 raiders each from the original guilds and 10 more we've picked up. We have been able to recruit quality people and really make progress. Gruul's and Lurker (which was the last boss we did before the merge) were slow and painful to master. Because we've become much more organized, Vashj and Kael each took us less time to learn than Lurker did :)
It's difficult to make changes, but you'll be glad you did.
Shelby Jun 9th 2008 2:03PM
Being a small guild with just barely enough members to do 10-mans is really tough. I lead a guild in that same situation for quite a while, recruiting was a huge hurdle, people came and went and we never had a solid reliable 10-man group but the core group of about 8 of us worked really well together. We ended up finding another guild very similar to our own only about twice the size and most of us merged into that guild. So far it's been great, it was a tough decision at the time because of the sentimental attachment to the old guild, but I'm glad we made the decision when we did before everyone just gquit and went their seperate ways.
Tychon Jun 9th 2008 2:16PM
I don't understand how small guilds can't progress. I have 2 70s that are unguilded that i mess around with when im not raiding sunwell, I pug karazhan, Gruuls, ZA and Mag. I run anything people are willing to invite an elemental shaman too (which isn't much). I would join a guild and raid, but its an alt, and I just can't make 95% of guilds raid times, due to my mains raid schedule. If you have 10-15 people geared and ready to go to gruuls, can you not pug in the rest of the people? granted you are not really going to be able to do a DKP system or master loot the tier tokens, but they drop 3? so people are still going to be getting geared up, the more you run these pug gruuls, and mag, the more you may be able to invite some of the people you are bringing in on these pugs.
Unless you are on a low pop realm and you can't find people willing to pug, but I really don't see why they wouldn't especially since Kara would be on farm and your tanks would have all if not most of the drops from kara. easy 5 badges and 6 teir tokens... who doesnt want to pug gruuls... unless you are scrubs and full of fail, seen some of these people are they are usually removed very fast.
Kausik Kannan Jun 9th 2008 3:27PM
Thanks again for the advice Scott. Though I have another small concern I wanted readers opinions on... If you have people who left the guild when you needed them the most, there comes a question of do we really want to invite them back into the guild raids.
We have had a few non guild members who come to our raids (basically very good friends) but when some guild members leave, it leaves a very sour patch and most of us do not want to encourage them back.
About the scheduling that most of you have pointed out, we had tried it through the entire time using Group Calendar. It's just real life issues that come into the equation of attendance. Anywho, I guess it's time to sit down and do the officers meeting!
Thanks again folks and happy hunting!
-K
Gimmlette Jun 10th 2008 10:51AM
And there's always us, Spectacular Death, unless you're a horde guild. We aren't in Kara yet but have the people power to be in Kara if enough people were on at the same time.
If you look at the Llane forum, all the big Llane guilds have recruitment posts. A couple of friends in some of the progression guilds have said this summer seems to be worse than previous years. A lot of people, for whatever reason, are taking a break. Maybe progressing is not something you can do right now.
I have something scheduled for SD every weekend, but I'm mindful of the fact that we might not have the bodies. I asked people if they wanted me to schedule things and they said they like having something to look forward to. If they can't make this weekend's ZG clear, they know we're gearing up for another Onyxia kill because it's on the schedule. I think having things scheduled gives people a sense of the guild being together. Right now, we're trying to clear our quest logs of anything requiring a "group". You feel as if you're progressing even if you aren't getting tier 5 armor.
Many people have mentioned an alliance and I think that's a great way to preserve your guild's identity while getting to see more things. I am probably never going to have 25 guild people on at the same time; the most we ever had was 18; so 25-man content is going to require an alliance of some sort. But, for us, that's months down the road since we are striving to see all the old-world content with some scattered infusions of BC stuff.
And I think posting to the Llane forum is a good way to increase your visibility. You may never get anyone from the recruitment post but it lets others know what your goals are and what you'd like to accomplish.
If you can tough it out through this summer, I think you might find recruitment easier come fall.
Gimmlette Jun 10th 2008 11:02AM
I didn't address the members leaving. I think it depends upon how they left. Guilds are fluid things and people are going to come and go. I've had probably a dozen people come in, run with us and leave for various reasons. The people who left without a word and didn't respond to any queries from members aren't welcome back. Those who talked to me before they left or sent me a letter explaining their reason(s) for leaving will probably be welcome to come back if they so desire. I think a re-invite depends upon how much of a relationship you had with them before and how they left. I have also asked my officers their opinion. "Hey X wants to come back. What do you guys think?" My officers can see things I can't and their perspective is incredibly valuable.
As much as you might want that former guild tankadin who wants to come back, if several of your officers have reservations, I'd heed them. After all, your officers are in there positions because you respect them and their opinions, at least I hope so.
rick gregory Jun 13th 2008 7:29PM
It depends why they left.
If they left because they wanted to progress and your guild wasn't *and wasn't showing that it wanted to* then you can't really hold it against them. A lot of smaller guilds say they'd like to progress but you can tell pretty fast which are serious about it and which aren't, mostly by looking at 2 things - how organized they are and who they recruit.
Scheduling, setting standards for raids (you can't take a 300dps DPSer or a healer with +800 heal to ZA no matter how nice they are) and having people close to one another in progression makes moving forward easier. A lack of people on, a lack of organization and having people vary widely in gear hurts efforts to progress past farming something.
Sometimes the people who have worked to get geared simply don't want to run Kara for the 54th time... they want to go see other stuff. So they leave. If they left on good terms, why wouldn't you want them back on a PUG run?
MartinC Jun 9th 2008 4:00PM
It always amuses me when someone says comments like, "I need a guild for...", "Our guild is too small...", "How do I find a better guild for raids....". I guess most people just don't get it. A guild is *not* needed to do any of these things. Simply find people who have the same goals as you, team up with them, and get things going. So many people seem to use the "guild" crutch for not progressing or getting into a raid.
Perhaps it's different because I'm on an RP server, where most people are mature, intelligent, can communicate well, and welcome grouping together without any guild affiliation. Most of the raids here are simply a collection of people from different guilds who have common goals, can commit to a set time for weekly sessions, and always come prepared and ready. It works very well. All of the 25-man (and even some 10-man) raids I have been in are this way.
So maybe it's not possible on a PVP realm, or other server where immaturity and ego seem to rule, but I would suggest getting out of the "blame the guild" mentality and just getting a group together.
Stormsinger Jun 9th 2008 7:44PM
Yeah, another "been there" sort of post here.
Something that hasn't been mentioned much is realm population. Low pop means people get Kara cleared and are ready for more, but they need 15 more people to get into the rest of T4. On most low pop servers there's a limited number of guilds that regularly field 25+ people. OTOH, on high pop servers there are a lot more guilds that do it and plenty of potential for pugs even into T5 content. This will act as a salve for the players feeling they are missing out, and should allow a more casual guild to survive.
The guild I'm in has a number of "sister guilds" that we regularly raid with (T4 and T5). This way we get to do the higher end stuff and still have a good, laid back guild to hang out in. Again, the high population on the server means a lot of people are at the 25 man level and looking to run it. OTOH, if you are on a low pop server... Well.. I was and I transferred off. Much happier now (even if farming is more of a chore ;-) ).
Druanna Jun 10th 2008 12:59PM
Our small guild suffered the same problems. 50 members and over 150 toons, but we had trouble herding 10 together for a Kara run. Forget 25-mans!
The "fluidity" (cough) of guilds held us back immensely. We'd need a healer (and you can't pug healers on our healer-starved server). We'd grab a good one in their 60's. By the time they leveled up and were able to run Kara, we lost our off-tank. Okay, recruit an OT. Work on getting him geared up. By the time he's ready, we've lost another healer. Rinse and repeat. We were stuck in an endless "churning point" where all we did was gear people up and watch the higher leveled people leave.
Finally we let the raiders go. Our original guild is still there, full of our alts and one or two stalwarts who just don't want to go anywhere else. It's *very* empty. However, the rest of us have filtered out to guilds doing 25-man content and we're progressing nicely.
As an added benefit, we still get to play together. A friends list isn't the only way to keep in touch - our old guild has a private chat channel set up. All of the old guildies are in it as soon as they log in. So even though 4 of us are running SSC while 3 are in Mags and the rest are playing around in H-MgT, we can still chat side by side in our private channel and congratulate each other on boss kills, loot, and laugh over funny happenings.
When one of our guilds can't fill a spot for a 25-man run, we usually end up pulling one of our buddies from the old guild to run with us (easy to do via our shared chat channel) - makes for good times.
An "end" is not truly an end - it is the beginning of something new.
Rastas Jun 11th 2008 3:58AM
Mine used to be a small guild but now we have about 80 members (one alt allowed per person, so let's say about 40-50 individuals).
We've had some members in the past who wanted faster progression, but mostly we have members who enjoy good company and are happy with our slower progression, that gives everyone a chance to get gear almost simultaneously. We have some members that have chosen to join us instead of where they could be gear-wise (SSC and TK and even BT). Most of the people who wanted fast progression usually didn't even participate in any of our raids to see us out (our raiding is affected a lot by our jobs, since we are far from HC).
So, what I think of this... Those people who decided to go their separate ways had different dreams than you, but you shouldn't let them pull you down. There will certainly be people who are not happy with where they are now, or need to cut back their raiding for some reason, and might join you guild to get to a raid every now and then. You don't have to give up doing Kara just because you have too few members - take some PUGs with you instead. Go and try ZA, maybe just first boss? Even if everyone in your server is in a guild, some of them must have an alt or maybe two, who they want to gear up. They already know how to play (or should, at least), so there's you answer. Don't give up.