Insider Trader: Fair wages

If you ever listen in on trade channel, you might have noticed just how little trading actually gets done. Amidst the ego trips, show-offs, begging, insults, whining, wooting, and the like, you may notice another trend; that of complaining about prices for goods and services.
I often see people harassing others about the price of twink gear, crafted items, enchants, gathered materials, or even dungeon and world drops. Sometimes, the criticism is warranted, to protect the more naive members of the community. Most of the time, unfortunately, the comments begin to flow because players have not caught up to, and accepted, the cost of things.
Why would this be? After all, as I was leveling, I don't recall feeling as though I had bags full of money and nothing to spend it on. I had to save, and farm, and do without enchants and blue gear and consumables, if I wanted to train, to level my leatherworking, and purchase a mount.
So why should some feel so resentful towards crafters for the prices of their goods and services? Why does several hundred gold for an enchant or a leg armor patch seem like highway robbery? Shouldn't we be used to these things feeling slightly out of reach, and requiring some time to finance?
When I was leveling, I recall that my server was still settling into the existence of Outland, and stories were trickling down from those friends who had leveled faster. I remember one of my guildmates saying, dreamily, "and soon we'll be in Outland, where riches flow like wine."
Outland felt like the promised land. It was so shiny and new, and right out of the gate, raiders were disenchanting their purples and picking up greens off of hellboar. Quests gave an unprecedented amount of money, gathering items sold like hotcakes, and the mobs weren't too poor either.
One might think that our senses of the reasonable costs of items inflated with the amount of money that that it was possible to make in the normal course of adventuring. Still, many of us who spent months leveling without the help of guildmates, siblings, partners, or anyone else who sped us through it, sometimes choke on the idea that a few stat points are worth several level 40 mounts.
What might feel worse, is spending weeks farming, or emptying your virtual wallet, for the materials for a new enchant or piece of gear, and then being asked for, or feeling obligated to, tip for 20-50g or more. Sure, we can each make that back with a couple of dailies, but that doesn't mean that everyone's mentality has readjusted to seeing double-digit numbers before the little symbol of 'gold' as chump change.
Unfortunately, the result is often underpaid craftsmen, who are either insistent about their prices, and thus earn a reputation, or give in to avoid the incessant conflict, either accepting less gold, or refusing to serve the public at all.
To "V" who always haunts my LFG with such gems as "WTF why does nobody ever run ANYTHING on this server?" and "don't even ask it's lame, nobody does anything" I will say, perhaps it is just that no one is inviting you? In fact, I often run up to four PuGs a day, and get tells for many more.
To the countless popping into trade demanding "chanters" for Mongoose, then soon making exclamations such as "why are there never any chanters on? You guys all suck" and that is assuming that these people can spell, and refrain from profanity. Perhaps it is not a lack of enchanters, but merely a lack of enchanters wanting to deal with you, your attitude, and the hassle you will probably give regarding tips and fees.

Of course, there will always be people who feel a sense of entitlement that they are not owed, and who will complain about the idea of having to pay anyone for anything someone might do for them. Here is a look at some of the things that your friendly neighborhood craftsperson has done to actually be entitled to a fair price:
- Spent considerable time farming materials, leveling the skill, being available for customers, and even going out of their way to travel for them.
- Spent money at the trainer, and at the auction house in order to reach the level necessary to make these things and perform those services.
- Spent either a lot of time and money, or a boatload of money, acquiring the rare and desirable patterns, designs, or recipes so that they can provide an important service to the server.
After all, with limited play time, a raider's time is valuable if they want to actually raid. Not only do they need to show up on time, but they need to be prepared, which means fully gemmed, enchanted, and sporting the proper consumables. When not raiding, they are often farming just to keep their habit, or passion, afloat. Being willing to pay a fair wage, a generous tip, or even a bonus incentive, allows them to achieve their goals in the amount of play time they have.
While it is important to provide service with a smile, it is equally important to be a polite and friendly client. Do you solicit and tip fairly, or do you have a regular beef with the cost of things? As a craftsperson, are you eager and willing to serve the public, or have you given that up? Do you ask a fee or a tip, or just hope that you are given your fair dues?
Filed under: Herbalism, Insider Trader (Professions), Making money, Features, Jewelcrafting, Analysis / Opinion, Enchanting, Tailoring, Leatherworking, Engineering, Cooking, Blacksmithing, Alchemy, Skinning, Mining, Fishing, Inscription






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Starbeast Jun 13th 2008 6:06PM
In all honesty? Tipping is probably one of my downfalls. I try to tip well, but looking at a 25 to 50 gold tip makes me wonder if my tips aren't just a tad anemic. As far as everything else? I try to pay attention to the one with the most wit, and least rudeness. I ask them what I need, and how much extra I will owe them. If I can swing it, great, otherwise, I wait til I have more and go back to that person. It works for me.
Shumina Jun 13th 2008 6:07PM
As a rule:
Always tip. Always always always.
It's as simple as that. Hell, do it with a smile even. The rewards down the line will save you far more than what you've spent on tipping.
Oblitherax Jun 13th 2008 6:17PM
I agree. If you tip well people will respond to your requests for a certain enchant, item, gem cut, etc down the road.
I know that if somebody doesn't bother to tip me that the next time I hear that people spamming trade for something I can craft I doubt I would bother to respond to them.
Jay Jun 13th 2008 10:08PM
Depends on the recipe I think. If its a really rare recipe that has like a 0.1% drop I'll tip maybe 20g or whatever I can, but if its just a trainer taught recipe then I usually won't tip. Depends, I'm not the richest of people so I don't have 50g to throw away =/
Afu Jun 13th 2008 6:31PM
In the real world, I'm a very generous tipper. Usually though, that's because the person providing the service (waitstaff) are not the same people who get the money from the bill. In WoW, the service is being provided by the same person who gets 100% of the money from "the bill". Therefore, I feel it's unnecessary to tip unless given a REALLY good reason (you traveling to where I'm at, giving me something else for free, etc).
If the crafter wanted an extra 10G for their service, then they should have included it in the agreed upon price of the enchant or whatever. It's already a "fair" trade because they aren't forced to provide the service to anyone at all.
Sidenote:
"Requiring" people to tip smacks of the same psychological-mindgame BS that stores use today when they price everything at 99 cent intervals (Only 9.99! That's less than $10! Wha-ta Bah-gin!)
Basically, you tip to help out the "little guy". To show your gratitude. There is no "little guy" in WoW, so tipping isn't really necessary.
/$0.02
Oblitherax Jun 13th 2008 8:13PM
I'm going to point out the obvious here.
You're talking about when someone is selling an enchant/item etc AND they have the materials. In that case you wouldn't tip.
The rest of us are talking about when the person buying the enchant/item etc is also PROVIDING the materials. Thus, the person providing the service would make absolutely nothing if the buyer did not tip.
So, as you can see, there is a reason to tip when you're providing the materials because otherwise there is no money to be made by the person doing the enchant/gem cut etc. And if that were the case then why would they bother doing it at all?
Oblitherax Jun 13th 2008 8:21PM
To further emphasize my point, here is a good real life example :
Imagine you've broken your watch and lake the necessary skills to fix it yourself. So you call around and find someone in the area who has the skills necessary to complete the task.
You have the watch already. You've even bought the replacement part and the tools required to fix it. So you head over to the guy, he fixes your watch and you just leave.
See what doesn't work here? The person fixing your watch wasn't selling you anything tangible, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be paid for the efforts made. Now, if you'd have paid the guy for fixing it, this would function more like society does not. People generally get paid for both GOODS and SERVICES.
So don't think of the money you are giving the person in game as a tip. It's not really. It's paying them for the service they have provided you.
mike_rochannel Jun 30th 2008 5:01AM
Actually it's mostly the client providing the mats and the tip is the pay .. there is no base price ...
Mike
Rob Jun 13th 2008 6:38PM
This was recently discussed in the official forum crafting section (and is probably the type of topic that resurfaces many times a day). Some readers thought that crafters should have a set fee period, and if they dont, then the person will not tip.
Tips are nice but not mandatory. We need to get out of the trap that tips are a way of life for our economy, they aren't (former waiter here). We need a decent wage that is built in to the cost of service. I never ask for tips, I just say the enchant costs 10g mats included or whatever. If you dont specify a price, don't complain that you dont get anything (or enough).
Not everyone knows what the proper tip is, not everyone is even adult and thinking about tips (it wasn't until i worked at a restaurant at 16 that i learned about tips). Think about society, yes its commonly understood that at restaurants you tip, but what about other things like the maids in the hotel, etc. There are lots of grey areas.
Like cruise ships, every single person that you interact with wants a tip, and it sucks you dry. I much prefer the new practice of building in a tip to everyone (well most people) into your room charge. Its ridiculous to go around tipping 5 people a day for various arbitrary amounts for doing their job because their employers do not want to give them a fair wage (and are not held to U.S. labor laws). Its basically saying to the cruise industry its okay to pay them a slave wage, we'll pay you more to offset this. This is BS. Charge an appropriate amount, pay your labor an appropriate amount. (sorry for tangent, but crap like this makes my blood boil and is the reason I don't cruise any more).
Acceptable Risk Jun 13th 2008 7:15PM
Agreed. While it's a bit of a digression, I feel the need to comment here. I find tipping to be a very awkward social problem.
I understand that some people make their living on tips to the point that they aren't paid a living wage when tips aren't included. This is a terrible situation, but I'd much rather that businesses just increased the price of their goods/services in order to pay their employees a decent wage rather than forcing their patrons into some arbitrary social contract with their staff.
Back on topic, in WoW, I generally provide trainer-learned crafting/enchanting for no cost if materials are provided to me. Any monetary remuneration is at the discretion of the client. Most people will pay between five and twenty gold voluntarily. I never refuse tips, but I generally don't ask for them, either. This seems to be a pretty common practice on my server.
Of course, providing equipment or enchantments that require rare or expensive patterns comes at some predetermined cost. I've found clients will often pay a bit more than the asking price anyway. Especially if they're aware of the expense or effort required to obtain some of the rarer enchantments.
Saelorn Jun 13th 2008 6:59PM
Tips are a form of deception (as are taxes, but that's another matter). Just list the full amount, after all considerations, and I can decide whether I want to purchase based on the reality rather than the lie.
I don't mind someone advertising, "want to enchant mongoose, your mats plus 10G tip." That's honesty, and that's the way things should be.
Sythel Jun 13th 2008 7:08PM
Go onto any popular internet community forum and ask a question about real life tipping etiquette and you will come back with a vicious debate. For even more fun, you can get opinions from people living outside of the US and Canada where customs are entirely different (in some places of the world, a tip is viewed as an insult and implying that the service provider needs to be paid extra to do their job). Even without that, I can almost guarantee you that you'll get people confused about the proper percentage/amount to tip and still thinks that the 80's custom of 10% at a restaurant is standard.
There is so much confusion about what many people just assume is common knowledge about the practice in real life. Now transpose that into a game where you have players who may still have their parents taking care of restaurant bills and other stuff and you have an even less consistent knowledge of tipping etiquette.
I just forgo the possibility of making myself look like a rude cheapskate and only get stuff enchanted by friends I've made in the game and don't bother advertising JC cuts I can do. My main is a rogue though so I sometimes get hailed to open lockboxes so I don't totally escape things, but I never expected to make money from that so tipping or lack thereof has never been a concern with the exception of when someone just opens a trade window with a box and doesn't say anything. At that point, if I don't get a whisper or a tip, I just pretend I'm afk at the mailbox/vendor/AH and I'd much prefer the former. Thankfully for crafters, being treated like a vending machine seems to be reserved for lockboxes.
Puff Jun 13th 2008 7:21PM
I tip anywhere from 5-25g, depending on the circumstances. I do this because I do not want to level a crafting profession to 375, and they have chosen to do so. They obviously have more patience and tolerance for the pain of crafting green recipes (none of which will sell for what they cost) repeatedly until they level. :D
I think tipping is especially appropriate for rare or epic quality items. The patterns for these things are harder to find, some of them available only through reputation grinding, raiding, or very rare world drops that get sold for exorbitant prices on the AH. If someone spent 1000g+ to get a rare jewelcrafting pattern, the least I can do is give them a 10g tip for cutting the gem I bring them. It's probably still cheaper than the AH price, as well.
I have managed to avoid unpleasantness all around by offering large tips up front "WTB [Enchant/Gem/Armor Kit] - my mats, 25g" so that we both understand what's expected. That might seem excessive to some people, but when I get on to play WoW, I want to *play,* not sit in Shatt for 45 minutes until someone finally responds. A big tip usually secures me what I want within a few minutes. If I don't get a response, I can safely assume there is no one currently in Trade with what I want, and I can go about my business and try again later.
I also find the comment on the raiders being the moneybags very interesting. One of my best friends in WoW is a raider (I am not) and I have about 10x the gold he does, because he does not have the time to do the things I do for gold. The time he spends farming or doing dailies is to make money for consumables and repairs, and not much else. This could be an isolated situation, but it seems like raiders spend the majority of their game time well, raiding, not farming and doing dailies.
All of that said, I'd go back to my original point and say that people should just say how much they want to be paid for providing a service. That's how most real world services work, and I think it would alleviate a lot of drama if people just expressed what they wanted up front. You spent a zillion hours raiding to get the Uber Rare No One Else on the Server Has It Enchant, and you want 50g tip? Then tell people so when they ask you about it. People might be fresh 70s and not understand all the sooper sekrit unspoke rules of the club. Communication is key. :)
JCoultas98 Jul 10th 2009 4:13PM
Wonderful post! Even though i'm a year late!
Saelorn Jun 13th 2008 7:30PM
I once had someone pay me four gold for three stacks of water. I realize that I had to pay to learn the skill, but seriously, I was standing in the middle of town; did they think I had some better use for my mana?
I can understand and despise the topic of people charging ridiculous amounts of money for rare world drop crafting recipes on the assumption that the person will make the money back in tips and by playing the market, but that doesn't mean I have to participate. I just don't buy the ridiculously overpriced patterns, and I get all of my gems cut by guildmates. The unfortunate side effect is that my skill is stuck at 371 indefinitely. Oh, how simple things would be if nobody expected a tip.
Evander Jun 13th 2008 7:48PM
I understand that in a perfect world i could spam in trade asking for what i consider a fair tip without being called names for the minute that follow... but it's not the case.
Enchanting is the worse i think... i can craft an end game belt and ask for mats +150g and no one even blink, but charge more than 15g for a world drop enchant and you wont hear the end of it.
When is the last time you saw the potency formula on the ah or the resilience one for the chest piece... Potency was on the auction this week on my server and someone bought it for 1750g... Charging 10g per enchants i would only need to sell it 175 times just to break even if we dont consider the cost of training and of the enchanting rod.
When i started leveling my crafting skills, I decided i would not loose money with my professions. When i supply mats i always asked for more than what they would sell on the ah and I've always always charged a fee when people supply their mats. I'm sure my whole family have been insulted somewhere in the leveling process so i can understand that some crafters would choose to ask for tips and just blacklist the buyers if the tip is not as they want.
F0REM4N Jun 13th 2008 7:47PM
One of the best wrote posts I have ever read here, Kudos!
GormanGhaste Jun 13th 2008 8:18PM
I think we should get away from calling it a tip. When someone needs something crafted, I tell them my fee upfront.
Zeplar Jun 13th 2008 8:38PM
Don't tip if there's a fee.
If there's no fee, you tip, because that's how they get their money... why would they spend their money leveling their profession only to give you a free service?
And I generally give 10g tips, 20g if they come to me... 50g seems a bit large.
Saelorn Jun 14th 2008 7:05PM
I don't know about anyone else, but I level trade skills so I can create gear for my legion of alts. Enchanting is the obvious exception to this, since I can't enchant any of the good gear for my other characters.
I'd rather do all of the crafting work myself, and avoid the outrageous prices of the auction house, but unfortunately this is not possible.