Nonlinear dungeons return in Wrath
by Alex Ziebart 
Jun 29th 2008 at 1:00PM
The Caverns of Time was a gloriously refreshing change from that, and I'm glad they took something out of that poll they did awhile back. The previews of The Occulus and Caverns of Time: Stratholme were fantastic, and that nonlinearity is one of the best parts, easily. Even though you will probably have killed all of the same bosses in the end that you would have if the dungeon were linear, just in a different order, having choices available and environments that aren't simply enclosed hallways that go in one direction really brings a place to life. It's hard to believe that the Botanica is just one really long constant hallway, for example.
Here's hoping that these elements extend beyond Old Stratholme and The Occulus, and Wrath will bring dungeons back to life.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Instances, Expansions, The Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King, Worldwide Invitational
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Delano Jun 29th 2008 1:27PM
"Solid hallways guiding you straight forward"
Clearly you've never had a bad pug in BRD, where one member only wanted to go to the Ring of Law, one had three quests to knock out in the front half, one had two at the back, one wanted only to do MC attunement, etc. Anything that makes bosses or significant quest/profession/etc. content optional within a dungeon will make it harder for any given individual to accomplish their own goals, because a group will take the path of least resistance, and skip whatever they're not familiar with, or are sick of.
At the raid level, where there has to be more organization and coherent preparation, that's one thing. For five-mans, I shudder that they're going back to the broken old model.
matrix_dragon Jun 29th 2008 1:42PM
It is no going to be the same in WotLK hopefully, for they are removing attuntenments all together.
shinken Jun 29th 2008 2:55PM
"Broken old mode"l huh?
I used to be a Dungeon master, a long while back, and if I made my dungeons like the ones in BC my players would have left after one session.
Only wanted to do the ring of law huh? atleast you have the choice!! also find better ppl to play with.
BC dungeons are the most unimaginative creations.
I loved Blackrock. I have done emperor runs with every toon ive made and guided PUGS to do it; pre and post BC.
BC seems to just hand everything to you on a plate.
Magister's terrace was a disappointment, a 3D dungeon forced in a linear pull-fest. Only the Kael fight was fun.
When blizz said they will make raid dungeons non linear, I got annoyed. I like to tackle fun dungeons that are not on a lock out timer.
Taytayflan Jun 29th 2008 10:48PM
God, I hated BRD with a vengeance until we got a 70 for-fun group, because I never got to the end when I could of used it. No one knew how to get to the end, I'd never seen the "7" before i was 70, and I had people ninja my drops to shard them.
Wulf Jun 29th 2008 1:30PM
I think its a very good shift. Yes BRD could be daunting, but it also felt epic, like you were lost in a big sprawling underground city. That's something I'd very much like to recapture. TBC instances are good in the sense that are straight-forward and fun to run, but they're the same everytime and there's only one option about where to go and how to do it. Going through Hellfire Citadel doesn't feel like you're in a Citadel at all, more like a big long corridor.
@ 1: I think you're being too pessimistic. Most groups, even PuGs, are willing to help fellow party members do the parts they want to do in exchange for helping them with theirs. Also, Blizzard are saying they want to keep the average dungeon run at around an hour, so even though the dungeons are non-linear, they probably won't be as problematic as BRD was.
NowImhappy Jun 29th 2008 1:39PM
YEAH!
These are more than good news,its something I really wanted and missed in WoW.
The old dungeons adventure style was way better ,more fun and better feeling than these on rails 1 path style from TBC that just felt like mindles grindan.
Terrant Jun 29th 2008 2:03PM
If we're going to have non-linear dungeons, could we at least have mini-map functionality within them? Doing an instance can be fun; getting lost in one is not.
jrb Jun 29th 2008 2:32PM
amen brother!
ytf is there not a map in instances? even if it means we have to uncover it like in the game world. crazy.
G Jun 29th 2008 2:44PM
You know, a lot of people complain about Blizzard dumbing down WoW for beginners, but I've always wondered why we can't get maps inside dungeons. At least the kind which only draw as you explore so as to not give anything away. That was always kind of fun in D&D.. need more graph paper!
Geo Lara Jun 29th 2008 2:06PM
I'm probably in the minority but the problem with epic non linear dungeons is that they are PURE HELL to PUG with. You have to go many times, and no one ever seems to have the same quests as you do. Or folks tend to bail once they get their own quest done but don't want to stick around to help you with something further down.
I hated BRD because I had to pug it every day for over a week to get all the quests done and I still never saw the emperor, escort Reggie Windsor or got attuned for MC.
BRD has scarred me for life.
Jhestor Jun 29th 2008 2:16PM
Everybody has different experiences, is the morale of the story here.
I'm actually a pretty big fan of the non-linear dungeons because I've always played with friends or trusted guildies when tackling the larger, more difficult dungeons.
A mixture of linear and non-linear dungeons, with thoughtful design of quest objectives and optional bosses, could prove to be a nice way to go in wrath.
TBC dungeons were convenient, but there are only so many times that I can follow the straight and narrow path.
qoa Jun 29th 2008 9:33PM
Wait... There is an escort in BRD? I've run that place probably 100 times now, and I didn't know about this. Here is the magic of this place.
Powerlord Jul 1st 2008 12:59PM
Marshall Windsor is part of the Alliance Onyxia attunement chain. I don't think you can escort him as Horde.
shinken Jun 29th 2008 3:02PM
I loved the COT instances but I HATED being shackled to a NPC. I fear Ill be following Arthas around, while he Rambos stratholme.
Heres an Idea : have a big open map like Hillsbrad and many different objectives like metal gear solid. Make it a ten man, you have a certain amount of time to complete the tasks. Completing the tasks gets you different loot depending on the time and how to complete. You could split your team and complete different task in tandem or zerg as a full group.
Chamual Jun 29th 2008 5:32PM
That's actually a brilliant idea. I'd love to have to split the group\raid off into 2 or more seperate teams, each with their own objective but all having to succeed to unlock the final boss or something.
Imagine if they also didn't allow ressing or something, so you would have to decide whether 1 team carried on without their now dead mage or you sent backup dps from another team (who had a 3 minute gallop across the instance) to back them up :D
Nick S Jun 29th 2008 5:12PM
departing from the linearity might be nice, but it needs to be logical - BRD had its moments, but it also had endless stretches of pulls without a lot of point or interest. keeping the attention of your group for that long can become challenging.
Thauron Jun 29th 2008 7:37PM
Oh yes, I LOVE non-linear dungeons.
They're a staple of many other famous games, notably Zelda, Castlevania and especially Metroid. As seen with BRD though, it can easily go in a completely opposite direction in terms of quality if not done to perfection.
Linear hallways are incredibly boring IMO. It's just one trash pull after another, kill a relatively simplistic boss once in awhile, and repeat. They're pretty much the tank & spank version of instances. In some cases this is it quite literally.
I welcome the change to non-linear dungeons, hopefully a bit longer too. More opportunities to flex the mental muscles too would be a welcome addition.
As noted, they are very rough on most PuGs. But over simplifying to make things more efficient or easier to farm really takes away from the experience.
By making them harder, would that lead to an increase in the quality of most players? People would have to learn somehow, and play smarter. But if they don't need to, they won't.
And to be honest, I think adding more challenge to the casual aspect of the game will be great. Because unless you have large amounts of time to dedicate to end-game raids... there is little to no challenge in PvE.
If you don't like PvP, and lack the time for high end raiding, what can you do if you're looking for a meaty challenge?
The Hammer Jun 29th 2008 6:18PM
Another one here that loved the non-linearity of Blackrock Depths, and in specific the absolutely epic, Mines of Moria style entrance into the instance itself. It was massive, and lovely, and that apart from CoT no other dungeon set in Burning Crusade has such a sprawling introduction toits levels is just one of the reasons why I prefer vanilla WoW's dungeons.
Yes, they were far too long at the later levels, and yes, the lack of gaining reputation easily was a trouble too, but they felt like adventures. They felt like you were in a book, or a movie, or seamlessly playing an action game. TBC felt far too much like a tactical RPG, with the pulls. Where were the heart-pounding temple defenses of Zul'Farrak? Where were the Grim Guzzlers? Where were the surprising changes of environment as seen in the Deadmines? Where were the feelings of being in a warzone of Stratholme?
My favourite three instances in Burning Crusade were Old Hillsbrad (partly because of the lore and "oh my god I'm a human" influence, but partly because it felt new, fresh, an adventure to cherish - I laughed at the innkeeper calmly sighing at the fighting from upstairs - and because once Thrall was released, there were no more pulls. Just constant fighting. And all that in just over an hour), Steam Vaults (I don't know why. Naga are good foes, I suppose, and there was a sense of environmental progression in the final doors only opening up once the gnome boss had been defeated - it was quite an open instance), and Ramparts (it was a lovely introduction to Outland, with three nice bosses, and the idea of an outside instance).
eisengel Jun 29th 2008 6:22PM
@shinken
I love that idea... and not all the objectives could need the entire group. It would be great to have some objectives that benefit from stealth, some that benefit from single-target DPS and some that benefit from AoE DPS. That way it could be possible for an undermanned group to go in and squeeze off maybe one objective, or for a full 10man group to split up and try to complete all the objectives within a given time limit for some extra loot... or for an underpowered 5man to deal with each objective one at a time.
Wyred Jun 30th 2008 8:34AM
Heh, gotta love the way that 'non-linear' has been very quickly equated with BRD. I joined wow post-TBC, and yeah, some of the TBC dungeons are very long straight roadish. And BRD does feel epic in a way I don't feel with any of the TBC ones. It's definitely got it's problems though. It takes a huge amount of time for a 5 man with blue rewards and it is quite difficult to navigate if you don't know what you're doing. But overall this has to be one of the most memorable things Blizzard has done within Wow. I'm sure some sort of balance can be struck. And yeah, where the hell are the mini-maps?