WWI '08 Panel Analysis: PvP part I, Lake Wintergrasp

The panel at the WWI earlier was cleverly titled "PvP Game Systems", where Tom Chilton and Corey Stockton discussed Lake Wintergrasp, new Arena maps, and the new Battleground. It was a rather uninspired panel compared to the previous ones, revealing very little that anxious players didn't already know. Because of the suspiciously lengthy yet predictable presentation, very little time was left for questions (of class balance, I bet), although a few good ones were asked -- and surprisingly answered -- during the session.
Lake WintergraspI've been excited about this non-instanced Battleground from the first time I heard it, and Chilton and Stockton revealed just a little bit more about what promises to be an active zone in Northrend. Blizzard likened the zone to the Elemental Plateau, where some PvE elements are mixed in with PvP. The zone will be the first, and possibly only zone in the World of Warcraft to have persistent destructible elements such as bridges and keeps. The zone will have destructible bridges, for example -- a tactical implementation as the very hyped siege vehicles cannot cross water.
Hinted at in the past, Chilton confirmed air combat in Lake Wintergrasp, as he talked about two types of air vehicles, comparable to small, light fighters and slower bombers. He went through a list of siege vehicles such as the heavy-hitting Demolisher, which can carry up to three targetable passengers who, in turn, can target enemies. Passengers on the Demolisher will be treated as though they were standing still, enabling Mages, for instance, to cast Pyroblast from within the siege vehicle.
Other vehicles include a lighter, faster, more agile machine called the Forsaken Catapult. A single-man assault vehicle, the Forsaken Catapult doesn't have the range or firepower of the Demolisher, but is also the lowest-cost vehicle to obtain in the zone. While details weren't revealed, Chilton mentions how players must complete certain tasks such as turning in resources or killing X players in order to have access to a vehicle. Other vehicles, such as the Siege Engine -- a long-range, tank-type vehicle with room for non-targetable passengers and a dedicated gunner -- will presumably have steeper requirements.
The flying machines are countered by a Goblin Shredder, likely similar to the nefarious tools used by the Venture Co. to denude Azeroth. With anti-air weapons and a jump feature that enables the pilot to reach or fire at high-flying targets and leap over obstacles, this piece of Goblin machinery might be a popular choice for many players. It reinforces the rock-paper-scissors philosophy that Blizzard maintains with many of their games, particularly their RTS games like Warcraft and Starcraft.
It sounds like a highly ambitious Battleground, even more complex than the flawed Alterac Valley. But the rewards are extensive. Inspired by Auchindoun, gaining control of Lake Wintergrasp allows the capture of something similar to Spirit Shards from all Northrend instances. These are currency for PvP rewards that are unique and cannot be purchased through Honor or Arena points but will "not be more powerful" than either type of gear. Like any true Battleground, achieving the objective also awards Marks of Honor and Honor points.

Lake Wintergrasp has the potential to be the best thing to happen to World PvP, or the most nightmarish Battleground experience. Unlike instanced Battlegrounds, there is no matching system or control over the limit of players on one side. Depending on each server's faction balance and interest, it's might happen that there will be massive mismatches between the two sides. A problem exists for Battlegrounds and entire Battlegroups, at times, where a certain faction will win more often than the other. Isolated on one realm, this problem can become even more pronounced. How Blizzard plans to address this potential imbalance, which can be systemic on many servers, is up in the air.
On normal or PvE servers, I'm curious as to how active the zone will be. In existing zones where there are World PvP objectives, non-participation has no impact on the activity of the zone. Whether or not the zone is controlled, there are numerous other features in place such as dungeons or quests which are independent of the PvP objective. In the case of Lake Wintergrasp, the zone is the objective. The zone was created for PvP. If too few people participate in the objectives, the entire zone fails. In this regard, the rewards must be compelling enough to drive players to participate... repeatedly.
The zone only succeeds if it has numerous participants. Lake Wintergrasp is no fun if it only has one or two siege vehicles roaming about and a lone flyer buzzing around. Wintergrasp is best when it's full-on war with entire raids blowing up bridges and the central keep. Without a General at the end of the map, the zone actually needs to be played and fought for, not raced through. Capturable graveyards throughout the map makes it a dynamic zone, changing depending on the state of the battle.
The central, destructible keep is supposed to be "epic", according to Stockton. Able to fit siege vehicles inside, it was designed to accommodate a large number of players. In a non-instanced zone designed purely for PvP from the ground up, more is better. This is Blizzard's first foray into true, world PvP. In many ways, it's WoW's answer to the much-touted open-area, siege PvP of Age of Conan and the eagerly anticipated RvR or Realm vs. Realm mechanic of Warhammer. How it will be received by a community that didn't necessarily sign-up for massive world PvP remains to be seen.
The good
Siege vehicles! Destructible buildings! Aerial combat! If a lot of players participate in Lake Wintergrasp, it could be one of the most fun things to do in the game. In fact, I'm inclined to farm the place. Will there be a title tied in with the zone? It's possible. Blizzard is doing things with Lake Wintergrasp that we've never seen in any other WoW zone. The potential for the zone is so good that it will be tragic if it fails. I'm fairly certain that Blizzard is aware of this, and is working hard to make the gameplay compelling for everyone, even those not on PvP servers. I'm excited to see the rewards, particularly persistent ones, or perhaps consumables to encourage repeat play. If PvP gear can be obtained from PvE, why not the reverse for some items in Lake Wintergrasp?
The bad
Faction imbalance in realms and general population skill in PvP will become more important and pronounced. Cross-server Battlegrounds addressed this issue, but Lake Wintergrasp once again isolates it to each realm. The siege vehicles that can accommodate additional players will require cooperative play, much like a party. While fun, this also requires an entirely different mindset in play. A passenger on a Demolisher will be unable to control her own movement, for example... it will be like playing on a rail. That can be frustrating to some people used to traditional WoW PvP.
The resources required for vehicle purchase is still not set, but Chilton promises that the aim will be to make the game very fast paced. This means it should steer away from numerous turn-ins or excessive Honorable Kills before eligibility. This means there should be ease of procurement... the vehicle garages and hangars should be situated to allow ease of access and immediate return to battle. Alterac Valley failed in this respect, specially with the new mechanic that throws players forward through the map upon death.
Vehicle control requires an entirely different skillset, particularly for those carrying passengers. It takes cooperative play to a whole new level. It might happen that entire team compositions will be built around a siege vehicle... for example, a Rogue would be useless as a passenger, Fan of Knives notwithstanding. It's bad only because there will be a new learning curve for many players, but should work out in the long run.
The verdict
It's simply too early to tell how Lake Wintergrasp will turn out. Blizzard seems to have put a lot of work into the siege combat and not yet implemented zone objectives. The full picture will become clear when Blizzard reveals the mechanics of the zone, there will likely be numerous, repeatable objectives all over and hopefully, extremely compelling rewards in the form of consumables and titles in addition to the Northrend-wide buff and likely gear. If Blizzard pulls it off, Lake Wintergrasp could possibly be the best zone they've ever designed. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
WoW Insider is on the ground in Paris at the Blizzard Invitational bringing you the big announcements and latest Wrath news as it happens. Check out our latest coverage!Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Events, Blizzard, PvP, Battlegrounds, Arena, Worldwide Invitational






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
popeguilty Jun 29th 2008 2:04PM
I have a wonderful mental image of a seige vehicle pulling up near a skirmish area- where large numbers of players on both sides are in combat- and a team of mages inside using Blizzard- either to pound on a small area or to provide damage and slowing to a wide range. I don't do a lot of BGs, but I can definitely see myself spending some time here.
Ehrgeiz Jun 29th 2008 2:52PM
I can't wait to not go there and do anything because of the overpopulated alliance on medivh.
rick gregory Jun 29th 2008 2:11PM
WEll, it sounds very cool. I'll likely never see it as they imagine it though... my server is PvE and is 3:1 Alliance. Halaa? very rarely does the Horde even try to take it. Why would the Horde venture into an entire zone where they're likely to be drastically outnumbered? I imagine we'll all try it out early on... but I think it will become a dead zone as the game progresses for servers where one side outnumbers the other by 2:1 or more
ILikePvPbuthatePvPers Jun 29th 2008 2:36PM
LOL my server, the factions are pretty well balanced. About 50-50 on each side.
And Horde always controls Halaa. The Alliance players on my server are a bunch of pussies, I can't even get help when I ask for it on localdefense. But whenever I'm on my Horde characters, I can always rely on someone to assist me.
Elmo Jun 29th 2008 2:53PM
Same as "ILikePvPbuthatePvPers"
was on my Paladin yesterday and tried to take the spirit towers at Auchnidoun.
I had 4/5 taken alone (asked for help repeatedly)
but then 3 Hordies captured them all back, not a single person out of the 15
gareth Jun 30th 2008 7:51AM
Sounds like you are on my server too, officially there are 3 alliance for every horde there, so unless some sort of balancing is done to limit the players zoning in then this place will become as dead as halaa is on our server.
On our server halaa occasionally gets captured by horde who turn up in a small group, ninja is quickly, hand in their items and then head off leaving it alone.
I'm seeing a big problem for WotLK if all the eggs have been put in the lake wintergrasp basket for pvp, that and the complexity of the ideas they have with all the machines does worry me a little, it sounds too advanced in technology, personally I'd have preferred something based on magic instead for roleplaying reasons.
Still surely Blizzard know that world pvp will have big problems on most of the servers due to faction number imbalances? You could make the most exciting idea imaginable but it would still fail miserably if every person that competes is attacked by three people at the same time.
Ikarus Jun 30th 2008 3:38PM
On my server the Alliance always control Halaa and the spirit towers. The horde just doesn't care. We (horde) may occasionally take halaa long enough to turn in stuff but the Alliance always show up in force to retake within 10-15 mins. Don't think Lake wintergrasp will be any different unfortunately
GamerJunkie Jun 29th 2008 2:22PM
Priests already highly represented in all 3 Arena brackets why fix them even more and ignore other classes.
If you look at all Arena touraments, Priests are in almost every team.
Way to go ignoring other less represented classes.
Charlie Jun 29th 2008 2:28PM
Those are all discipline priests.
Shadow priests are awful in arena.
Baluki Jun 29th 2008 2:22PM
I really hope they come up with a way to balance unbalanced servers.
At the moment, on my server (Draenor) Halaa is Alliance-controlled about 99% of the time. When the Horde does manage to take it, Alliance players swarm into the zone ("zomg PvP!") and retake it within about 20 minutes.
Unbalanced PvP isn't fun. Nobody likes being a group of 10 fighting a group of 20. If Blizz can't solve this problem, Wintergrasp is going to sit unoccupied most of the time on my server.
Charlie Jun 29th 2008 2:31PM
Well half of your problem is solved already. Its gonna be like auchidoun, so there will be a timer before the ally on your server could retake it.
But as for the faction imbalance, not much they can really do about that.
They could do single faction free transfers. They should do that. Never done it before.
Yaimano Jun 29th 2008 3:55PM
Actually if I recall properly, there was a recent story of faction specific free transfers to help some VERY Alliance heavy Oceanic realm.
I see that being tested a lot more prior to Lich.
Cal Jun 29th 2008 6:19PM
That was Thaurissan, with a ratio of 1 alliance to 13 horde or so. Blizzard opened transfers to the realm for alliance (it was also one of the first PvE-PvP transfers available).
But yeah, faction imbalances will ruin Lake Wintergrasp. The rewards may be great and people may want to do it, but it's physically impossible to.
Krazen Jun 29th 2008 2:52PM
Yeah i play on a pve server and can't wait for Lake Wintergrasp my fears are just that people will treat it like hala and never go there or too few people to actually participate and make a diffrence. They are going to have to put something in Lake Wintergrasp to make everyone(even people that don't pvp alot) have to and want to go there. Oh and I call the flying machine first lol.
Charlie Jun 29th 2008 2:29PM
I don't think it will be an issue. 1) See my comment below, and 2) there will be BG Marks/Points awarded for participating like a normal BG. Thats a big incentive imo.
GamerJunkie Jun 29th 2008 3:18PM
All you shadow priests has to do is respec disc, how about telling that to Shammys, Hunter, Pallys that have one viable PVP spec and it ain't even wanted in competition.
Ignoring other classes while buffing Priests even more is unfair.
Charlie Jun 29th 2008 2:27PM
I resent your assumption that players on PvE servers want to PvP, or more specifically world PvP, less than those on PvP servers. I feel it is about the same.
For me, the differnece is that I prefer controlled PvP. I don't want to have to deal with people attacking me when I want to level (i leveled 2 chars to 70 on a pvp server, hated it). But, I love halaa and Auchidoun, there great zones when i feel the urge to kick some opposing faction butt.
Finnally, I don't necessarily consider lake wintergrasp world pvp but the way we have come to know it. It is a non-instanced battleground.
Zach Jun 29th 2008 2:53PM
Resent all you want, but people roll on a PvE server because they don't want to be flagged for PvP all the time. I'm sorry, but the moment you step into Lake Wintergrasp, you'll be flagged.
I asked around from all my PvE friends and associates, and they've concurred. PvP activity for World PvP is pretty low, or single-sided, on many PvE servers. That's not a diss on your person or anything, it's just fact.
You might be more the exception than the norm on your server. It's not called a PvE server for nothing, after all.
Seajay Jun 29th 2008 9:21PM
@zach
No, alot of people roll on a PvE server because when they begin the game it is highlighted as a 'Normal' server.
To then move oevr to an entirely new realm has the benefit of being able to attack other faction players but the SERIOUS drawback of leaving the friends and guildies you have met on your current server.
I would hazard that many PvE players did not choose PvE servers for any reason other than the fact it's highlighted as 'normal' on the creation screen. It's already been said multiple times pvP servers are not significantly harder to level up on. (Search before flame please)
Zach Jun 29th 2008 9:27PM
@Seajay - I don't understand what's so hard to believe about my statement that a LOT of PvE players or those who rolled there simply do NOT like to PvE. It's a PvE server.
I rolled on a PvE server when I started this game. I leveled 2 toons to 60. Then I realized I wanted to PvP. So I rerolled. Now I have 2 70s on a PvP server. Trust me, if people WANTED PvP badly enough, they'd reroll.
Comments on this post from PvE players already prove my point. World PvP on many PvE servers is dead. This isn't a disparaging remark of any sort. It's a FACT. YES, there are PvE players who want to PvP, but a large number of players on PvE servers rolled PvE precisely because they didn't want to PvP. And yeah, there were some people who just didn't know better.