WWI '08 Panel Analysis: PvP part I, Lake Wintergrasp

The panel at the WWI earlier was cleverly titled "PvP Game Systems", where Tom Chilton and Corey Stockton discussed Lake Wintergrasp, new Arena maps, and the new Battleground. It was a rather uninspired panel compared to the previous ones, revealing very little that anxious players didn't already know. Because of the suspiciously lengthy yet predictable presentation, very little time was left for questions (of class balance, I bet), although a few good ones were asked -- and surprisingly answered -- during the session.
Lake WintergraspI've been excited about this non-instanced Battleground from the first time I heard it, and Chilton and Stockton revealed just a little bit more about what promises to be an active zone in Northrend. Blizzard likened the zone to the Elemental Plateau, where some PvE elements are mixed in with PvP. The zone will be the first, and possibly only zone in the World of Warcraft to have persistent destructible elements such as bridges and keeps. The zone will have destructible bridges, for example -- a tactical implementation as the very hyped siege vehicles cannot cross water.
Hinted at in the past, Chilton confirmed air combat in Lake Wintergrasp, as he talked about two types of air vehicles, comparable to small, light fighters and slower bombers. He went through a list of siege vehicles such as the heavy-hitting Demolisher, which can carry up to three targetable passengers who, in turn, can target enemies. Passengers on the Demolisher will be treated as though they were standing still, enabling Mages, for instance, to cast Pyroblast from within the siege vehicle.
Other vehicles include a lighter, faster, more agile machine called the Forsaken Catapult. A single-man assault vehicle, the Forsaken Catapult doesn't have the range or firepower of the Demolisher, but is also the lowest-cost vehicle to obtain in the zone. While details weren't revealed, Chilton mentions how players must complete certain tasks such as turning in resources or killing X players in order to have access to a vehicle. Other vehicles, such as the Siege Engine -- a long-range, tank-type vehicle with room for non-targetable passengers and a dedicated gunner -- will presumably have steeper requirements.
The flying machines are countered by a Goblin Shredder, likely similar to the nefarious tools used by the Venture Co. to denude Azeroth. With anti-air weapons and a jump feature that enables the pilot to reach or fire at high-flying targets and leap over obstacles, this piece of Goblin machinery might be a popular choice for many players. It reinforces the rock-paper-scissors philosophy that Blizzard maintains with many of their games, particularly their RTS games like Warcraft and Starcraft.
It sounds like a highly ambitious Battleground, even more complex than the flawed Alterac Valley. But the rewards are extensive. Inspired by Auchindoun, gaining control of Lake Wintergrasp allows the capture of something similar to Spirit Shards from all Northrend instances. These are currency for PvP rewards that are unique and cannot be purchased through Honor or Arena points but will "not be more powerful" than either type of gear. Like any true Battleground, achieving the objective also awards Marks of Honor and Honor points.

Lake Wintergrasp has the potential to be the best thing to happen to World PvP, or the most nightmarish Battleground experience. Unlike instanced Battlegrounds, there is no matching system or control over the limit of players on one side. Depending on each server's faction balance and interest, it's might happen that there will be massive mismatches between the two sides. A problem exists for Battlegrounds and entire Battlegroups, at times, where a certain faction will win more often than the other. Isolated on one realm, this problem can become even more pronounced. How Blizzard plans to address this potential imbalance, which can be systemic on many servers, is up in the air.
On normal or PvE servers, I'm curious as to how active the zone will be. In existing zones where there are World PvP objectives, non-participation has no impact on the activity of the zone. Whether or not the zone is controlled, there are numerous other features in place such as dungeons or quests which are independent of the PvP objective. In the case of Lake Wintergrasp, the zone is the objective. The zone was created for PvP. If too few people participate in the objectives, the entire zone fails. In this regard, the rewards must be compelling enough to drive players to participate... repeatedly.
The zone only succeeds if it has numerous participants. Lake Wintergrasp is no fun if it only has one or two siege vehicles roaming about and a lone flyer buzzing around. Wintergrasp is best when it's full-on war with entire raids blowing up bridges and the central keep. Without a General at the end of the map, the zone actually needs to be played and fought for, not raced through. Capturable graveyards throughout the map makes it a dynamic zone, changing depending on the state of the battle.
The central, destructible keep is supposed to be "epic", according to Stockton. Able to fit siege vehicles inside, it was designed to accommodate a large number of players. In a non-instanced zone designed purely for PvP from the ground up, more is better. This is Blizzard's first foray into true, world PvP. In many ways, it's WoW's answer to the much-touted open-area, siege PvP of Age of Conan and the eagerly anticipated RvR or Realm vs. Realm mechanic of Warhammer. How it will be received by a community that didn't necessarily sign-up for massive world PvP remains to be seen.
The good
Siege vehicles! Destructible buildings! Aerial combat! If a lot of players participate in Lake Wintergrasp, it could be one of the most fun things to do in the game. In fact, I'm inclined to farm the place. Will there be a title tied in with the zone? It's possible. Blizzard is doing things with Lake Wintergrasp that we've never seen in any other WoW zone. The potential for the zone is so good that it will be tragic if it fails. I'm fairly certain that Blizzard is aware of this, and is working hard to make the gameplay compelling for everyone, even those not on PvP servers. I'm excited to see the rewards, particularly persistent ones, or perhaps consumables to encourage repeat play. If PvP gear can be obtained from PvE, why not the reverse for some items in Lake Wintergrasp?
The bad
Faction imbalance in realms and general population skill in PvP will become more important and pronounced. Cross-server Battlegrounds addressed this issue, but Lake Wintergrasp once again isolates it to each realm. The siege vehicles that can accommodate additional players will require cooperative play, much like a party. While fun, this also requires an entirely different mindset in play. A passenger on a Demolisher will be unable to control her own movement, for example... it will be like playing on a rail. That can be frustrating to some people used to traditional WoW PvP.
The resources required for vehicle purchase is still not set, but Chilton promises that the aim will be to make the game very fast paced. This means it should steer away from numerous turn-ins or excessive Honorable Kills before eligibility. This means there should be ease of procurement... the vehicle garages and hangars should be situated to allow ease of access and immediate return to battle. Alterac Valley failed in this respect, specially with the new mechanic that throws players forward through the map upon death.
Vehicle control requires an entirely different skillset, particularly for those carrying passengers. It takes cooperative play to a whole new level. It might happen that entire team compositions will be built around a siege vehicle... for example, a Rogue would be useless as a passenger, Fan of Knives notwithstanding. It's bad only because there will be a new learning curve for many players, but should work out in the long run.
The verdict
It's simply too early to tell how Lake Wintergrasp will turn out. Blizzard seems to have put a lot of work into the siege combat and not yet implemented zone objectives. The full picture will become clear when Blizzard reveals the mechanics of the zone, there will likely be numerous, repeatable objectives all over and hopefully, extremely compelling rewards in the form of consumables and titles in addition to the Northrend-wide buff and likely gear. If Blizzard pulls it off, Lake Wintergrasp could possibly be the best zone they've ever designed. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
WoW Insider is on the ground in Paris at the Blizzard Invitational bringing you the big announcements and latest Wrath news as it happens. Check out our latest coverage!Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Events, Blizzard, PvP, Battlegrounds, Arena, Worldwide Invitational
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 2)
Charlie Jul 1st 2008 2:09PM
@ Zach 1st comment.
Thats the point. If i want to PvP i can go to lake wintergrasp and PvP.
World PvP is rare to begin with, i know most of my friends on my home server say World PvP is low, because what most people consider World PvP is Tarren Mill v Southshore. That kind of stuff doesn't happen anymore. Ganking is not considered World PvP IMO
Aviel Jun 29th 2008 2:38PM
Blizzard still doesn't provide a pvp system that is compelling to players who really play to PvP -- it has been forever polluted by a system geared for PvE: reward system, honor points, objectives to make PvE more compelling (like exp bonuses and extra spirit shards).
What the zone PvP objectives in WoW:TBC have proven over time is that each zone tends to be overwhelmingly "zerged" by one faction or another, and while a few sporting folks try to participate for the minority side, most folks give up and don't fight -- instead, they wait until later or the next opportunity to clash again.
All this results in are long windows of non-action until one side builds up enough of a majority that they can take everything on the map against little opposition; their goal, of course, is to achieve the PvE rewards.
The objective of world PvP should be to PvP, not to do more PvE. Because they are so intricately linked in all of Blizzard's designs, I'm afraid they will never be able to create a system where people participate because they actually want to do battle. What I'm afraid I see happening with Lake Wintergrasp is "dressing up the pig" by creating cute siege machines.
The core problem will resurface in WotLK, I believe: Lake Wintergrasp, about 3 months after release, will be a continuous zergfest always in favor of one side, then go dormant for a few hours, then turn into a zergfest again. Unless and until they actually allow us to do guild versus guild-type battles, or player-buildable and siege-able assets where guild reputation and player-driven content is on the line, that's the best I can see happening for Lake Wintergrasp.
Dunwich Jun 29th 2008 2:38PM
Sounds like a laugh. But I shan't be happy until I can run people over in Siege Engines, bellowing "GOURANGA!!!"
Preston Jun 29th 2008 2:55PM
The gear you obtain from Lake Wintergrasp won't be as powerful as honor/Arena gear. As soon as I saw that statement, I shook my head, because that's the same problem with Halaa. Blizzard doesn't seem to learn from its mistakes sometimes. Why would people spend time to acquire subpar gear when they could spend their time elsewhere to get something better? WoW players min-max everything to death, and if there's something better and easier to get, that's where they'll be. This zone sounds like Halaa 2.0.
ILikePvPbuthatePvPers Jun 29th 2008 3:20PM
Wow, you must have failed reading comprehension...
They said the rewards will "not be more powerful". It doesn't say it'll be subpar to the other gears, it could (and most likely) very well mean that it'll be EQUAL to the arena/honor gears.
Preston Jun 29th 2008 3:37PM
ILikePvPbuthatePvPers:
If that was true, they would have said it would be equal gear. Instead, they carefully chose their words and said it would be "less powerful," meaning it won't be as good. Thus, it will be like Halaa in that people will stop participating once they hit level 80 because there is better gear to spend time on. Again, WoW is a min-maxing hellhole where anything subpar is disregarded. As with Burning Crusade, PvP will be all about Arena, Arena, Arena--little instanced duels in tiny rooms. Thank god Warhammer will be out by then.
Mullinator Jun 29th 2008 3:59PM
Actually they said it that it won't be MORE powerful. To me that indicates it could be tied in quality.
Preston Jun 29th 2008 9:54PM
@Mullinator:
I hope you're right, but I see no reason why Blizzard would say "won't be more powerful" instead of "equal" if the gear is in fact supposed to be equal. Frankly, I think we all know the Arena will continue to be the primary source of PvP gear, leaving Lake Wintergrasp in the dust.
Procris Jun 29th 2008 3:41PM
I have characters on both PvP and PvE realms and on my PvE realm, world pvp is non-existent. Alliance capture the towers all the time because not only is there a slight faction imbalance but the horde just generally never partake in world pvp anyway. The interest for them has never been there. Halaa is forever alliance controlled and so on and so forth. World pvp on my PvE server is a waste of time.
The faction imbalance on my horde PvP server is even worse in favour of the Alliance. Honestly, lake winterspring is going to be massive fail if alliance out number horde 5-1. There just won't be any point to going there.
Mullinator Jun 29th 2008 4:02PM
Thats why they are implementing some system so that whichever faction fails to suceed in capturing the keep will have an easier time doing it next time. Supposedly whatever buff the loser gets will stack as well so if you lose twice in a row you are getting that buff stacked on itself.
Besides if it ends up being a problem I would bet money that Blizzard won't just abandon it like they did with other PvP objectives. Current instanced BG's have been evolving for years and are likely still not completed. Wintergrasp will likely be seeing the same kind of development over time.
iPVPedbeforeArenas Jun 29th 2008 3:49PM
The 2 things that called my attention where the quality of the PvP Zone gear,and how to keep players coming back to it.
I really think that it should be on par with the current high end gear,maybe not the same gear but the values should be the same,not better but not worse,just alternative.
And it needs to have a way to keep people coming back,maybe a tax to keep the gear idk lo but the idea of these empy pvp zone is really boring.
Kaldric Jun 29th 2008 9:29PM
Out of curiosity, I'd like to see a realm where there's no PvP. If you roll on the realm, you can't arena, you can't do battlegrounds, there's no world PvP, no PvP of any kind.
What are the odds it'd soon be the realm with the best PvE progression?
Striker Jun 30th 2008 4:56PM
It's just another Halaa. WOTLK looks good, but it's simply BC all over again.
Blizzard has the ability to create awesome ideas, but doesn't seem to have the fortitude to "modify" them when they don't work. Halaa has gone virtually unchanged since it's inception in 07, and most likely never will. Neither will this, outside of modifications to the vehicles themselves.
Don't expect anything of any importance or impact to arise from these events either. If it isn't Arena, there isn't much focus on Blizzard's part. These aren't empty words, the proof is in the game itself.
Taytayflan Jun 29th 2008 11:01PM
Please, please tell me that my Goblin Rocket Launcher has an attack bonus on siege vehicles. It's the closest thing to an RPG (the weapon) I can think of.
Odok Jun 29th 2008 11:59PM
It sounds very neat and excited, and a nice breath of fresh air to the current PvP system. In fact, seige weapons mean anyone or any spec can participate.
However, I'm instantly dismayed by World PvP for one simple reason: my server has a very noticable population imbalance. Last I checked, Alliance outnumber Horde about 3:1 (it might be closer to 2:1 now). World PvP is absolutely no fun when the other team can simply marshal more people than you.
The only solution I can think of is to give benefits to players just for participating, not just for winning. Then even if you do get zerged, you walk away with a little something.
Vlatch Jul 1st 2008 9:02AM
Blizzard has already created mechanisms that spawn mobs to assist major city defense (albeit not very intelligent ones). Who's to say that there won't be reinforcements that balance the fight out, or even persistent buffs for players that are on the side that's "losing" at the moment?
I think what Blizzard learned from Halaa was extremely important. Rather than make a zone that gives items that aren't really worth fighting for, make a zone that's fun to play in. Halaa gave no real benefit for owning it - it's all a matter of incentives.
Leandar Jun 30th 2008 2:05PM
They should make it you can get more honor here than AV and you need some marks form here for BG armor. ie. S2 shoulders cost 20 LWG marks instead of AB.
If you got more honor here than AV people would want t do it for a boost of honor. The mbalance would still be a problem though
Vlatch Jul 1st 2008 8:35AM
Simply put, I don't PvP, but I am stoked about this zone. I'm on Kargath, a US PvE realm, and I've done a few BGs to fill some holes in my PvE gear. I've tried arenas to see what the fuss was about - on a team that played for 4 weeks and just sits there and rots now. I was around for a number of epic Tarren Mill v Southshore battles back in the day. None of that held my interest.
However, if done right, this will be THE place to go if you are 80 and bored. All that time spent farming consumables I really didn't need, or doing dailies for gold with factions I have long since hit exalted with: those days are over.
I can't wait for this zone. Bring it on!