Officers' Quarters: Empty slots
by Scott Andrews 
Jun 30th 2008 at 11:00AM
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.One of the primary struggles I face in a guild with no attendance policy is getting warm bodies to fill 25 raid slots for every raid. It seems like it doesn't matter how many people we recruit these days, we just can't seem to get enough people to make it happen all the time. As new players join us, old ones get burned out or stop playing altogether to wait for the next expansion. Based on this, you might already conclude that I can't really help the person who wrote this week's e-mail -- and maybe I can't! But I've learned that sometimes other factors can come into play, and this person might already be onto one of them.
Dear Scott,
I am in a raiding guild that usually runs about 3-4 raids a week and currently we are progressing through Black Temple as we have already cleared Mount Hyjal. [. . .] Recently we have had some issues with people showing up to raids and it seems to coincide with when our guild leader (raid leader) is not able to make it to the raid. If our raid leader doesn't log on we can't seem to fill out a 25 man raid but when he does log on we have no problem. Not really sure why this phenomenom happens but it seems to happen every time.
As one of the officers I am wondering if there is anything that we can to do get these raids filled. We have opened our recruiting but we still seem to have trouble. Maybe this is a result of AoC or a result of summer but really we can't seem to figure it out. I was wondering if there is any advice you could give to help us keep the progression going?
Thanks,
Neur
Neur, never underestimate the value of a good raid leader. I highly doubt it's a coincidence that you have more people showing up for the same raids your primary RL attends. Have you noticed that raids tend to go smoother when he or she is leading them? Are there more boss attempts in less time? Are most of your guild firsts a result of his or her leadership? When he or she isn't there, have you noticed that everything just seems to drag a little bit?
If you're answering yes to these questions, then you have your explanation. Raiders, particularly raiders with the experience and skill to progress through Black Temple, are quite adept at noticing patterns. It sounds like your members have picked up on this pattern and are attending accordingly. They've giving themselves what they feel will be the best chance of success in the least amount of time.
If you're answering no, then maybe the problem is of a more personal nature. Maybe some of your members just flat out dislike the person who leads the raids in your RL's absence. Have some private conversations and see if anyone has a problem with the "substitute" RL. If that turns out to be the case, you might have to mediate discussions and help the members involved to see eye-to-eye again -- or at least get them to the point where they can stand to see each in the same raiding window. You might even have to find someone else to lead the raiding team or, as a worst case scenario, base your entire raiding schedule on when your primary RL can be there. But hey, worse things have happened.
The beginning of summer and the launch of new MMOs are always, in my experience, the nadirs of my guild's attendance cycle. I expected a nasty dip this summer, with the convergence of the two events this year in addition to the gap in content for WoW. So you're right about those things. However, since there's a definite link between overall attendance and this particular person, you need to figure out the connection in order to find the solution.
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters! For more WoW Insider gameplay columns, click here.Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Chulak Jun 30th 2008 11:25AM
The summer slowdown plus the release of AoC hit every raiding guild on our server. We ended up stepping backwards a bit to gear up a lot of new members and get them comfortable with how we raid, but the choice was either doing that or giving up.
Sounds to me like Neur needs to get the primary RL to get a second RL trained to run raids the same way he does. As GM/Primary RL of our guild, I can tell you that running 25s is a daunting task, and nobody quite appreciates how difficult until they do it themselves. It takes practice and patience. I'd suggest getting the second RL up to speed in farm content, and leaving progression/newer bosses for the established RL. That in conjunction with some newer members who need gear from the farm content should be a good shot in the arm for raid attendance.
Sonmerlong Jun 30th 2008 4:01PM
Im also the GM / Primary RL of a guild.
This is a universal problem assoiciated with any monolithicaly top down organized guild. When i first started the guild i had a friend with me i tried to get to share the raid running load.
People simply did not like the way he talked to them, organized pulls, or organized fights.
After trying it that way for a while we eventually settled into just having me run all the raids.
Now a year and a half later, i am trying to train another raid leader (one that i think may have the right balance of ass and coddle). The right balance of "nice guy" and "jerk" is very hard to find.
There is no easy fix for this kind of a problem.
Just keep an eye and ear out for a player in the same general mold as your current raid leader.
Frank Smith Jun 30th 2008 11:27AM
^what he said. strong, effective, (and hopefullywell-liked) leader > all (for a raid guild).
our would have the same issue if our RL didn't have 100% attendance.
Bohelthas Jun 30th 2008 11:32AM
Not to mention the recent addition of all the new PvP gear, I know that hit us pretty hard.
Rufhoe Jun 30th 2008 11:39AM
I think what it all comes down too is what role the leader holds in a given raid. If your raid leader is also your guilds main tank, and it is that way more times than not...you will obviously struggle to fill a 25 man with your main tank gone. If your raid leader was a DPSclass you could possibly do without them, but seeing as the raid leader/ main tank is running through and marking everything and making the pulls, with out him ...your raid group can easily suffer. My guild is lucky, our main tank is NOT our raid leader. We also have 3 different raid leaders, so if one or even 2 of them are gone, you still have that 1 guy that you know can push 24 of you through content. Maybe not "putting all your bread in one basket???" is a good way to fill raids when "the man" is absent.
Lori Jun 30th 2008 12:35PM
"putting all your bread in one basket???"
??? is correct. It's eggs that don't all go in the same basket. You can put all the bread you want in one basket. No problem. But eggs definitely go in different baskets. Eggs are breakable, bread isn't.
And heavy items like canned goods and water mellons don't go on top of eggs or bread.
Grocery basketing 101.
Hurode Jun 30th 2008 1:21PM
I never expected to come onto WoW Insider and get schooled on grocery bagging. I guess stranger things have happened?
cdb2000 Jul 1st 2008 4:55PM
Bread isn't breakable? Interesting. I wonder where the phrase "breaking bread" came from then.
biglou Jun 30th 2008 11:40AM
We have a core of about 15 fully epicced in some form or other of s1/s2/s3/s4/t4/t5 (a few t6 pieces here and there) and we are trying to get into the 25 mans. Our problem is that we have new members coming in who we get geared quickly for the purpose of 25 mans and then they leave because they dont want to wait a few weeks to get up to 20 (were willing to pug a few) to start. We tried an alliance with another guild but we got their guys and ours geared and they all left. You cant win for trying. This especially sucks because we spent a month and got a healer fully epicced from 68-69 greens, then he left, and you know how hard it is to get healers.
I guess were coming to the realization that our TBC end game may occur after we can 15 man the current instances.
Rob Jun 30th 2008 11:54AM
Yeah this happened to an old guild of mine. The guild was very casual and apparently loved to run kara. But it kinda became a breeding ground for gearing up people and having them stop play or leave for somewhere else. After a while this hit me too. We were in kara for 6 months, and when our RL/GL/MT went on an unannounced 3 week vacation and we couldn't even get curator down, I decided it was time to cut my losses. Still feel bad (and they now treat me as a traitor - i still have an alt who's now 70 in the guild, i'm moving that alt soon too).
At some point you have to figure, well I've spent 6 months raiding with these guys, and what i'm looking for isnt' going to happen before the expansion hits, so I might as well stop raiding or move to a different raiding guild. And thats what i did, and the new guild is much much better in terms of organization and personality and maturity.
This guild, btw now has ~50 active 70s, but can't down Gruul yet. So...yeah some guilds just aren't going to make the 25 man transition.
here is a thought Jun 30th 2008 3:50PM
this worries me. our guild is young, started by two 70s a couple months back. we have a solid group of 5 others in their mid 50s leveling up. recruiting beyond this has been difficult so we have been attempting to form relationships with other small guild in hopes of raiding when the rest are ready. there has not been much interest so far, and your post echoes of why. running the guild so far as casual/leveling we are getting accustomed to the "use 'em and lose 'em" approach of some recruits that cause some churn. We just hope another guild will give an alliance a chance.
Akio Jun 30th 2008 11:46AM
Similar things happened in my old raiding guild back around 2.4. The GM couldn't make the raids due to his work schedule, and the person leading the raid in his absence was a complete douche, which made people not want to raid with him, or be led by him as well.
Needless to say, because of this issue, attendance became a issue, and the GM position was tossed around about 5-6 times in less than 2 weeks time, ultimately leading to the demise of the guild.
jrw Jul 1st 2008 8:38PM
My guild had a problem with attendance until we switched the loot system around. Before it was loot counsel, this made it awkward to distribute loot when 2 raiders wanted the item and one attended more often. If you tell them "so and so come more often and that is why you are not getting it" it comes across as favoritism, additionally it make is seem like we are penalizing them rather than rewarding. We recently switched to DKP-- attendance is more consistent. We had a few people leave the guild because of it, but in the long run it is more fair and more of a benefit, since we can reward raiders who attend more often.
Akio Jul 1st 2008 10:19PM
Meh, we ran based on DKP. People showed up, got dkp, and saved it til they could use it on upgrades. The problem was just pure attendance, and mentality. It was either constant complain at group X, or just people not able to make it over real life issues, making others cry.
DKP is fine, when it is managed and given out properly. Lout Council is fair when its a solid group of people, where favoritism won't become a issue, ala my old guild, where in the end, 1 officer and his gf stacked the bids around each other.
Rikkitikki Jun 30th 2008 12:21PM
Our guild struggles a little bit with this issue as well. But i think we have the fortune of have a strong core of people that are willing to who up every week because for a lot of us it's new content to even run Karazhan. We usually end up pugging the last couple of people we need for that even though we have more than enough in the guild that could fill those slots, they just don't log on sometimes. In fact on our last run we had to pug a tank who ended up being in a guild that was virtually dead and so we got a new tank for our guild. I even respecced my shaman to resto (from enhancement) which gave me a new interest in my main. I think it's just easier for people that are newer to the raids to start/continue to do them as its something they haven't been grinding the past months/year.
Sphasa Jun 30th 2008 12:43PM
Whether a normal raid group or not, all guilds seem to be getting hit with recruit problems along with the level of involvement within a guilds members. We lost our main tank along with good healers and DPS because of these issues. Now with trying to expand into Kara and do more 60+ raids for those leveling has become very difficult.
New members leave within the first 24 hours if the guild doesn't get them over the "bored" factor that has bit a lot of players. Our server seems to have become a recruit war in general chat.
If you figure out a way to have people show up for raids instead of giving in to ... "they'll find someone else".. please share your secret. I have players that deserve raid runs, but don't want to get lost in a large raid group with hard restrictions.
As a guild mistress, I really like the idea of advancing players so they are experienced in raid instances. I just wish WOW had some incentives to bring back those who left until the expansion comes.
Happy hunting... Kiss Kiss
Rob Jun 30th 2008 12:55PM
Well, the way i see it there are a couple of issues. The person has to get something from the instance. There is a reason things like slabs are no longer run, because the vast majority of 70s will get absolutely nothing from it (now if they had a plan such that the 'easy' heroic was as hard as the normal end-game, that would help).
The second thing is that you can't expect a burned out raider with a T6 geared toon to want to go back and do heroics, there just isn't enough reward. But if that person had a new 70 alt, sure they wouldn't mind doing heroics/kara, b/c they will get something out of it. For me, my main really wont get much out of a heroic or any 5man or 10 man. I'll do it to help friends/guildies (like tonight, we are doing the Champion of Naaru for a guildie). My newly 70 druid would kill to do any sort of heroic 5man instance though, she badly needs the gear.
I'm not sure what the answer is, but the guild needs to have good communication and a cohesive structure, and offer useful rewards. (IMO)
Breakfastmachine Jun 30th 2008 1:40PM
My guild has several 25 man raids going. There deffinately have been some that fell apart due to the things mentioned above, but the majority are still going strong. I think it's important to remember that people play this game to have fun. Getting gear and seeing new content is fun, but what do you do when you have the gear and you've seen the content? People get bored. They stop coming. They could have more fun doing something else.
Our raid leaders do a great job of providing a good time. Vent is always buzzing with jokes, stories, games, and conversation. Even people that don't need gear keep showing up week after week because they have a good time. It's certainly not easy to do this when you need to train people to do the fights, but if you can give people a reason to show up, even if they don't NEED to be there, they will show up. Good luck!
Gimmlette Jul 1st 2008 12:39AM
I think you're on to the one thing not mentioned here, fun. Trade/General/LFG and the forum is filled with recruitment notices this summer. WOW is just not fun for a lot of people. The demise of one of the best endgame guilds anywhere because they had seen it all and done it all is a case in point. That's something of a generalization but it wasn't fun for them anymore.
I'm lucky. I've added three more people to my guild because we are not afraid to be fun or to create fun while doing instances or endgame content. I guess I would want to know if Neur's GL is involved in the planning of other guild events or is s/he primarily involved in the endgame progression raiding. Just as "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy", all endgame raiding and no break to do something else makes a guild a grind factory. Maybe Neur's guild needs to step back and do something completely different, guild dueling night, PvP night, instance night, where the emphasis is NOT on raiding or progression and just on fun. The week doesn't have to be about gathering mats to make things so you are equipped for yet another assault of insert latest instance. I have found that mixing the silly with the serious means people come to the next serious raid more relaxed and more willing to wipe several times in order to learn a fight.
Lath Jul 3rd 2008 4:20AM
I think the question you need to ask yourself is how much are you and the other officers really trying to get the raid organised and off the ground? As guild leader of a light raiding guild, I often find that if myself or one of my main officers doesn't take charge and get the ball moving, the raid just fizzles out and doesn't eventuate.
The reality is that the majority of people need someone to guide them every step of the way. These people don't understand that organising and taking charge of situations doesn't magically happen. I often charge these types of raiders with the task of organising a simple Kara run on our unofficial 10 man night. Surprise surprise the start time shows up and within half an hour they are calling it quits because not enough people are on, or everyone is busy doing something else. The good news is that they gain a new appreciation for how much effort is involved in running larger 25 man groups.