15 Minutes of Fame: Mage(ic) with numbers, part II
15 Minutes of Fame is our look at World of Warcraft players of all shapes and sizes – from the renowned to the relatively anonymous, the remarkable to the player next door. Tip us off to players you'd like to hear more about at 15minutesoffame (AT) wowinsider (DOT) com.Last week, we met master of mage theorycrafting Lhivera of US Aggramar-A. Lhivera's love of theorycrafting landed him in hot water with Blizzard recently, after he posted speculative analyses of Mage performance based on leaked Wrath of the Lich King alpha information. Blizzard didn't like the discussion appearing on their forums, and Lhivera ended up perma-banned from posting there again.
This week, 15 Minutes of Fame brings you part II of our interview with Lhivera. Last week, we talked about Blizzard's ban-hammer and the appeal of theorycrafting; this week, we'll dive into Magely mechanics, Lhivera's theory on the "right" spec for today's Mages and where Lhivera himself is heading as a character.

What does the move toward spell haste bode for Mages? How does haste stack up against more traditionally desirable stats like spell damage and spell crit?
The short version is that haste is, point for point, our strongest DPS stat. The basic mantra is: hit (to cap) > haste > damage > crit.
Of course, it's never quite that simple. There's a big "if" attached to that, which is: "if your gear is currently reasonably balanced for your spec." Every stat influences the value of every other stat. When you add a point of crit rating to your gear, the value of hit rating, haste rating and damage increases relative to crit rating. So if, for example, you increase your haste enough, it's possible to push the value of a point of damage over that of a point of haste.
The interactions are pretty simple in concept, but actually calculating the relative values of the stats for a specific spec with a specific set of current stats can be a little complicated. That's where tools like mine and Vontre's come in. They do that work for you.
How has having haste changed Lhivera's play style and tactics?
It really hasn't -- partly because I stopped raiding before I collected much haste gear, but mostly because it doesn't really change the play style of a Frost Mage. You're still casting the same spells; you're just casting them faster. A deep Arcane Mage has to alter his casting more with haste, since it can change the way he works within the Arcane Blast debuff timer, but for a Fire Mage or a Frost Mage, all it does is introduce additional gear choices.
What spec do you recommend for a beginning raider? Is that different from what you'd recommend for a raider who's progressed further into end-game content?
I realize this is not a common view among many raiders, but to me, talent specs are not tools used to optimize your character for a particular kind of performance. They aren't meant to be swapped around like equipment or like weapons in a first-person shooter.
I don't care what kind of server you play on. World of Warcraft is an RPG, and RPGs are, first and foremost, character-driven. They are about creating and developing a character and overcoming challenges in the provided world with that character, whatever his strengths or weaknesses may be. This is true of World of Warcraft whether you're into using "in character" dialogue or not (I'm not), just as it has always been true of pen-and-paper RPGs. In World of Warcraft, talents represent your character's strengths, his natural aptitudes, training and experience.
Now, sure, if you hit 70 and decide Magic Attunement isn't all you thought it would be and you want to shift those points to Prismatic Cloak, that kind of thing doesn't bother me. But I believe very strongly that when you respec into a new tree to optimize your character for certain situations, you're destroying a large part of the RPG experience. Respeccing should be a last resort, something you do when you're just so bored with a character and so uninterested in leveling a new one that your choices come down to respeccing or quitting.
So my recommendation is this: create the character you want to play. If you want to play an Arcane Mage, then come level 10, start putting points into the Arcane tree. People will tell you you're making leveling more difficult for yourself because the tree just isn't very good for it. They're right. But who cares? Deal with it. Get to know the character, get to love it. If you don't love the character by level 30, delete it. You'll never have the personal attachment to it that you'll need to enjoy it long-term. If you do, keep at it, learn to play it well and learn how to gear it.
Many raiders disagree with this point of view. They feel that defeating the boss is the sole consideration, and the characters are merely tools used to achieve that goal. As far as I'm concerned, these people aren't playing an MMORPG. They're playing an MMORTS. And while Warcraft's roots are in the real-time strategy genre, that's not the kind of game World of Warcraft is meant to be, and it's not the kind of game I'm interested in playing.
What should be the main priorities of a raiding Mage in terms of spec and gearing -- DPS, utility, survivability ...?
I've probably already said more about spec than anyone cared to read. Beyond that, you focus on dealing damage. If you want to be a raiding Frost Mage, you really want those three points in Piercing Ice rather than Frozen Core, for example, and your gear should be oriented toward dishing out as much pain to a boss as your tank's threat will allow.
Utility is practically irrelevant; there's virtually nothing you can do to make a difference in your utility capabilities that a raiding group will care about. There's enough redundancy and flexibility in handling utility tasks that, should a breakdown occur somewhere, a sharp group will cover it.
Survivability is relevant, but only because it translates into damage. A Frost Mage having Ice Barrier isn't an advantage because it keeps him alive; it's an advantage because it allows him to wear less stamina gear and thus more damage gear. Having more Ice Blocks is an advantage not because it keeps you alive, but because it allows you to clear debuffs or avoid effects that would otherwise reduce your DPS time.
Is there a clear-cut best spec/spell rotation for Mages, as far as producing the biggest numbers?
Yes and no. In any given situation with any given raid composition, there's one spec that will outperform the others. But changes in both fight design and raid composition have large effects on the performance of different specs. Blizzard has actually done a pretty good job of balancing out our three trees so that they can all shine in the right situation, with the right group, in the hands of the right player.

Not a problem! I turned 40 in February. I grew up in South Windsor, Conn., got a BA in English Literature with a minor in Political Science and moved to Seattle in 1991, where I now work as a sys admin for a web hosting/colocation company. I have a lovely wife who is very tolerant of my gaming time and two cats who are not. I have an affection for old Saabs and vintage Vespa scooters. In fact, I have a crudely Photoshopped image of Lhivera sitting on a Vespa fitted with an anti-tank weapon outside the Stormwind Auction House; I'll send it along. Yes, the French military really did mount anti-tank weapons on Vespas.
It sounds from your perspective on choosing a spec and play style as if you have a good bit of experience with roleplaying games in general.
In high school and college, I played a variety of pen-and-paper RPGs -- not so much D&D, actually, though a little. Mostly I played Gamma World and Call of Cthulhu, with various games in various genres using the GURPS system thrown in when the mood struck the group. None of the people I played with were really into the deeply in-character roleplaying, the dialogue and so forth. Mostly, it was an excuse to hang out, have some laughs, drink some beer and see what kind of story had happened when we were finished. How closely the story wound up aligning with what the GM had planned was generally inversely proportional to the amount of beer consumed, but it was always fun.
The interesting thing to most of us was our characters themselves. Though we took the play itself very casually, and really serious role players would have been appalled at the way we handled dialogue, we all invested a great deal of time in crafting the characters we played in these games. We wrote back story, the more artistic members of the group made sketches for us -- we knew who these characters were, and while we may not have tried to duplicate their manner of speech, we did keep true to the character concepts as we moved them through the narrative.
Did you play many other games before that, or are there other games you also currently enjoy?
Well, as a Mac user, my selection has always been relatively limited. I've never been a huge gamer; as long as I have something to play when I'm in the mood, I'm happy. The most advanced console system I've ever owned was an Atari 5200. There are really only three games that have ever been more than very casual pastimes for me: Civilization II, Warbirds, and now World of Warcraft.

Real life takes up more of my time these days, though I still spend a few hours a week in the game. I'm slowly leveling up a Fire Mage, a Feral Druid and a staff-wielding Warrior (a character I will never inflict upon a group); they're all in their low 60s on Hellfire Peninsula now. Occasionally I log Lhivera in to disenchant for the others or to work on Wintersaber Trainers rep, or I get onto one of my other 70s to run a 10-man or a heroic, but that doesn't happen often lately.
As for the future, that depends a great deal on how much time I have for the game, which will determine whether I'm able to resume raiding at level 80. It also depends on whether or not the classes I enjoy seem to be headed in directions that feel right to me, which will determine whether I'm interested in resuming raiding at level 80.
The only thing I can say for sure is that Lhivera and Macpherson, at least, will reach level 80, because I have a great deal of affection for them and for the world they live in.
Filed under: Mage, Analysis / Opinion, Features, Talents, Interviews, 15 Minutes of Fame






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Lhivera Jul 1st 2008 2:17PM
Just a note: the Vespa image I originally sent had an anti-tank weapon mounted on it, but it was very small, having been created as a forum avatar. The one included in the article was quickly and generously created by my friend Gottlos (Aggramar-US).
Charlie Jul 1st 2008 2:26PM
Thanks alot for your theory-o-matic tool. I used that alot back when i used to raid a bunch.
I'll have to go check out your posts on EJ. I saw on teh wotlk wiki that mages are supposed to increase in damage to the level of warlocks (haha so they admit it!) in the expansion due to their decreased utlity (so many other classes have cc now).
Dynasor Jul 1st 2008 2:39PM
Lhiv! The official forums miss you man! Please keep your Tcom site up and running, I still use it with Magegraf as do all of the mages I know.
Ryan Jul 1st 2008 3:04PM
Also known on the EJ forums as the Respec-Nazi. ;)
zappo Jul 1st 2008 3:06PM
Really refreshing to hear a theory-crafter with that view on character spec's. On pretty much every character I've had so far I've found I got a lot more enjoyment out of a "sub optimal" spec (not trying PvP spec in PvE, just not the "one true build" sort of thing). I've actually gotten rather touchy on the subject honestly, especially when my performance in game shows I do more than adequate damage/healing with what I have. If you don't enjoy your character, then you're playing the game wrong.
Great interview.
Ikarus Jul 1st 2008 5:46PM
I completely agree. Down with the gear/spec snobbery! If you can fulfill your roll in a given situation playing with a "sub-optimal" spec, more power too you.
ErsatzPotato Jul 1st 2008 3:23PM
The only caveat here is acknowledging you are making life more difficult for those you group with, not only yourself. Can't expect them to take your along. Otherwise, sure, go for whatever you enjoy most.
Tiforix Jul 1st 2008 3:26PM
Thanks for doing the interview, Lhivera. Though I'm no longer active in the Mage forums (my new main is a Moonkin) I always appreciated your posts there.
Brian Goodrich Jul 1st 2008 3:54PM
Finally, someone else who has played Gamma World!! I wasn't sure anyone else out there had ever even heard of that RPG system, but my brother and I played that game and even had 3 expansion packs for it. There was one about giant insects, another about chickens with laser weapons and lastly this really big expansion pack with Snow and some cyborg guy named "Scar."
Krug Jul 1st 2008 8:09PM
Who is Macpherson? Is that Lhivera's water elemental or a different character?
I definitely agree that people are missing out if they miss out on the RPing aspect of the game. My druid has been feral forever. My hunter beast master spec from day 1. My priest grinded through outland as a healer, and ran so many instances that to this day, he never did a single quest in Netherstorm...
Throughout my time in WoW, I would throw together little events to try and make it a richer environment. For example, the day before BC's release, I dragged half of my guild on a trip through the Eastern Kingdoms and documented it goofily:
http://maladomini.org/trip/
And before that when someone in the previous guild got The Eye of Sulfuras, we documented the trip into BRD to forge the hammer:
http://maladomini.org/sulfuras/
maxbliss Jul 1st 2008 5:17PM
Pre-TBC, I remember when my Fire mage reached 60. I was informed then that I must respec to Arcane if I wanted to get invited to raids.
I was so appalled, I quit playing that character rather than respec someone I had modeled after my own fiery character!
All hail the RespecNazi!
Max Jul 1st 2008 8:32PM
I totally agree with your view on the speccing-snobbery that runs so rampant in today's raids - however, what is to be done about immunity bosses?
Hydross and A'lar are no fun for frost and fire mages, respectively.
troy Jul 2nd 2008 2:30AM
As a long time mage I have to say that I have the deepest respect for Lhivera's contributions to the mage community.
Honestly, though, I think his view that respecs destroy the RP experience is just plain silly. You might just as well argue that a fire mage should only wear red and yellow clothes to preserve the RP feeling, regardless of the cost in stats.
I always considered it a lot of fun to try different specs or to tweak my current spec. Also, I can only highly recommend that every mage gives each of the three talent trees a shot. It broadens your understanding of the class as a whole tremendously.
Don't get me wrong, if somebody wants to play a melee hunter for RP reasons, that's totally fine by me (as long as the person does not expect to be invited to raids, etc.). But to strongly discourage other people from trying different specs because of your own warped RP ideas is imho a little unfair, because you are potentially depriving them of a lot of enjoyment of the game.
Aislinana Jul 2nd 2008 8:11AM
Interesting article! I must say though, as both a high-end raiding mage and a RPer, I find the idea that respeccing destroys my essential nature and character is kinda amusing. My mage's essential being is her personality, not what spells she casts in a rotation, in a raid. It's her passion, her magical studies and her perseverance.
That being said, I've only ever been deep fire for the most part, but I've dabbled in both arcane and frost because I think as a mage, you should understand how all three trees work.
Lhivera Jul 2nd 2008 11:38AM
Well, this is a common response from some people. Unfortunately, the only way that point of view makes sense is if your character's passion and study and perseverance actually makes her good at everything all the time -- there's no way to reconcile, even within the context of a fantasy world, that when your character studies Fire, she loses all recollection of what she learned about Frost, and vice-versa. It would actually make more sense in a sci-fi world such as EVE, where your character could be socketing and unsocketing skill chips. In a world where talents actually represent the product of your character's natural aptitudes and studies, the only way to justify respecs is to assume that we all suffer from multiple personality disorder on a scale that would be utterly debilitating, not only to our characters, but to the society as a whole.
Aislinana Jul 2nd 2008 11:42AM
Well, there's some things you cannot really or shouldn't really attempt to reconcile if you're going to try and make RP work in what is essentially not a very RP friendly game. Yes, deep fire suits her aptitudes and personality, but I'm not going to consider me respeccing to try out a frost DPS build part of my essential RP experience. Because it's for non-RP purposes, and therefore, would only be a brief footnote in her little ongoing adventures. (EX: "I dabbled in the study of frost today, it was most intriguing!" which is fine, because I was largely uncoordinated.)
But there's some things you have to overlook - respecs for the most part of PVE, not for RP and I don't think it is out of line for an RPer to dismiss certain PVE mechanics for PVE reasons as not part of their RP.
Lhivera Jul 2nd 2008 3:46PM
There's role-playing, the way many people think of it, and then there's that bare minimum of role-playing that everyone pretty much has to buy into in order to play a game like this, which might better be termed willing suspension of disbelief.
This is really one of those things that breaks willing suspension of disbelief for me. And I'm willing to suspend a whole lot of disbelief. I don't advocate removing them entirely; I believe they should be available for very occasional use. But I believe Blizzard should make every effort to eliminate the need to respec in order to participate effectively in every area of the game, and couple that with an increase in the cost and perhaps even a cooldown. I don't want to hear arguments about how that would prevent tanks from PvPing; making tank specs work well in PvP is part of eliminating the need to respec. (Or insert your "X class can't do Y well" argument here; same response.)
Spec needs to mean something. If I can simply respec to produce optimal performance in every situation, what the heck do I have a spec for? I'm no longer a character in an immersive fantasy world; I'm a freakin' Mary Sue.
CyberThoth Jul 2nd 2008 10:34AM
So my recommendation is this: create the character you want to play. If you want to play an Arcane Mage, then come level 10, start putting points into the Arcane tree. People will tell you you're making leveling more difficult for yourself because the tree just isn't very good for it. They're right. But who cares? Deal with it. Get to know the character, get to love it. If you don't love the character by level 30, delete it. You'll never have the personal attachment to it that you'll need to enjoy it long-term. If you do, keep at it, learn to play it well and learn how to gear it.
I love what this guy say about specs. I think I always felt this way, but I've always been pulled by others who are only concerned about the "perfect" spec. I actually created my new mage to be a frost mage :), even named him Moroz which means frost in Russian. But then I was not realy happy with it, and after trying fire i like that better. Still, I agree on just picking something and just rolling with it! I think I might make an arcane mage :).
Goldleader Jul 2nd 2008 2:12PM
The reality is that if you want to be competitive in PvE and PvP you are forced to respec.
There are a lot of guilds out there who don't care what spec you are so there is plenty of opportunity to raid with a sub-optimal spec - just be prepared that when you do this, not everyone is doing the optimal thing to succeed and it will take longer and be more expensive to get things done.
Similarily with PvP, go ahead and stay whatever spec you want. You can still have success in Battlegrounds but you may find yourself frustrated in Arenas where other people are willing to optimize themselves towards their goal.
Lhivera Jul 2nd 2008 3:52PM
See, as far as I'm concerned, your statement translates to: "Blizzard still has work to do on class design." All you have done is restated the problem. By definition, if we are forced to respec in order to perform competitively, then there are class design problems. This is self-evident, foundational, basic to the principle of a character-driven genre.
In a perfect world (of warcraft), the following would happen:
1) Blizzard would improve class design to dramatically reduce the drive to respec. In general (not against specific team compositions or against specific bosses, but in general in any given type of content), one spec would perform as well as another.
2) Blizzard would then increase the cost of a respec to 1000g and put a 90-day cooldown on it.
Now, with these changes, you can't respec to optimize for a specific fight. You need to work with what you have. And no, you can't just shunt a bunch of your players aside to optimize the raid for that fight, because that would require overstaffing your guild to such a degree that you'd lose some of those players -- and then you wouldn't have them when you wanted to optimize for a different kind of fight.
The most competitive guild/team becomes the one that can best work with the players and spec it has to overcome challenges, rather than the one most willing to reconfigure its talent points to eliminate weaknesses. It'd make for a better game.