Forum post of the day: Cliques aren't just for high school anymore
by Amanda Dean 
Jul 1st 2008 at 1:42AM
I was under the impression that the purpose of a guild is to have a group of folks that you enjoy playing with and have common goals. It's a good way to share the game with friends and family, in addition to experiencing new adventures and progressing together. Triamala of Blackwater Raiders fears that such actions are seen as cliquish, causing drama amongst the ranks.
In a post in the Guild Relations forum she said that a previous guild of hers feel apart because of cliques and her current guild is facing the same fate. Members of her guild apparently get up in arms if she runs instances together with her husband or other friends. In a later post she admits that she is closer to the officers than other guild members because they've been playing together for quite some time.
A number of the responders have had similar experiences. Problems truly occur when all others in the guild are ignored except during raid times. Chlover of Hyjal believes that there is no harm in playing with friends and family:
My main is a healer, my brother a tank, my sis-in-law a mage and hubby an enh shammy. About 1 to 2 times a week we agree on a heroic daily and spam guild looking for a 5th. What harm does this cause the guild? Does it make a difference that I'm an officer? I heal for other guild 5 man groups without family 1 to 2 times a week as well. I am on a 10man ZA team without family. Frankly its more fun to play a 1 hr heroic magT with my clique than to help a group of guild alts get a drop they want from Botanica..
I would probably reconsider my guild choices if I were in Triamala's position. My play time with my significant other is as important to me as my play time without him. After all, I never would have gotten started without him. It comes down to my theory that when it stops being fun, it's time to do something else
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Guilds, Forums, Forum Post of the Day
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Sirg Jul 1st 2008 2:23AM
Lately I've seen alot of guilds breaking apart to form others, but they aren't very different because all have level 70s that only want to raid (from Kara to BT). So people are only there to raid, and friendships etc are less important.
I think that only old guilds are more close to the ideal guild concept where people are friends and really help each other.
Gryphon Hall Jul 1st 2008 8:02AM
A lot of "friends" from my guild left because they thought it was more important to kill Illidan and Kael'thas on a regular basis than being in a guild of friends.
And yet, once they have been "subbed" in their uber leet raiding guild, they keep whispering and asking what we are doing. They keep linking the loot they get. Why don't they link it to their new "friends"? Do they think we'd be happy?
Now that our guild is progressing and their guild has either broken up or emigrated to Thaurissian, they're trying to come back.
And we didn't let them back.
My point? Like in school, there are those little social traitors who would only cater to the more popular group and will only rant and complain if they are not part of it. But give them the chance to be "part of it" even if they are just the little chubby hangers-on and yes-men of the cheerleaders.
Sylvyr Jul 1st 2008 5:17PM
This is exactly why I dont raid and have never been part of a guild in my few years playing this game, nor will i ever be. Easy for me cuz i'm a pvp'er and theres never a shortage of ppl who want to have some fun while getting pts. Yes, it is very Clique'y, and ppl just have allegiances to other ppl in the guild, and on top of that, a good 90% of ppl i know/have known in some top endgame raiding guilds on my realm are absolute elitist f*****n' assholes. That whole attitude is what strayed me away from raiding in the first place..
Kyr Jul 1st 2008 2:54AM
This happened to me also. I used to be OT/MT for a guild that raided Naxx pre-TBC. The guild started out as a magnificent place - people had great fun, there were lots of silly guildevents in and out of the game, and people trusted each other.
Then the three officers (who were the GM, his RL GF and his RL best mate) started hoarding raid spots for their ingame and irl best friends... at the cost of long-time raiders and "just" guildies who didn't know others out of the game.
Things slowly fell apart from there. For the 'lowly' members anyway.
I hear they're up to the last two bosses in SWP nowadays. Guess karma doesn't always work like it's supposed to... or maybe it's just lagged.
Kieran Jul 1st 2008 5:30AM
I have a certain amount of problrm with villifying this, despite the effect it has on others. Surely people *should* play with their RL friends if possible? So long as they're open about doing so, at least.
Of course when I started I didn't want to get sucked in to playing WoW as socialising, so I rolled on a different server and faction to my RL friends... got heavily into WoW anyhow and kinda regret it now.
zappo Jul 1st 2008 10:33AM
@ Kieran
I agree that it's nice to play with friends, and more so with family; but keep in mind that this sort of nepotism is degenerative in the long run. In the game we all play equally, and we should also contribute equally and therefore should be treated fairly. Now families that play together I'm all for, however do these members always contribute the same way?
If you've been playing WoW for any length of time and read upon ANY drama you can see the same freaking story played out a million times over. GM has a girlfriend (often a healer, often a priest) who is an officer in the guild. They all go raiding and said girlfriend gets disproportionate loot despite very inadequate skill levels. {insert drama here} ... etc.
I'm in a helpful casual guild now, and I'd say I'm on the fringe of a core "clique" of sorts. I gab in general chat as much as anyone, but don't instance as much with them. But lets say they start to alienate me (and TBH my priest alt is sort of already feeling jilted). I already do higher DPS than anyone in the guild. When my priest hits 70, I will also be the best healer in the guild - not tooting my horn, just what I believe to be a fact. If I get shafted and leave, this would be detrimental to the overall capabilities of the guild.
Family and friends are good but just keep in mind that this is a game that requires some amount of skill, and more often than not your family and friends are not on par with the others who may be a part of your guild. For that matter other guild members may promote a much more friendly and helpful environment then the RL people as well (who often feel obligated to receive help just because you know them IRL). Not even getting started over people who get in IRL squabbles that randomly come out to bite in game. People in game should be treated fairly according to their contribution in game, not because of their relationship to you. You have IRL for IRL relationships, and if you need to supplement that with WoW favoritism, then I think your standing with them is much more shaky than you believe.
SKY Jul 1st 2008 2:57AM
Also, is it just my imagination or did guilds seem... well, tighter before TBC? Getting 40 people together 5 times a week was no small feat - perhaps this rooted itself in the players' loyalty and trust for each other, and the reduction of raid size to 25 led to the 'bonds' between players in guilds, the glue that holds them together, to come apart... with the current result.
Lori Jul 1st 2008 5:24AM
Our pre-TBC guild raided 3 nights/week and had no trouble getting 38-40 people together. Friendly people that helped each other learn to play their classes and cooperated with each other.
When we started TBC everyone leveled at various rates. A few sprinted to 70 while others took months to get there. Some early 70s left for other guilds that were doing Kara and things kind of fell apart from there.
I believe it would have helped guilds stay together had there been 25 man raid dungeons for levels 63 and 67. It might have slowed the sprinters down some while being a carrot to get the others to level a bit faster.
Anyway, the guilds I have been in since haven't been as helpful and cooperative. It's like there is competition for raid slots so people don't want to help others of their class learn to play. Or maybe I just haven't found the "right" TBC guild yet. But there doesn't seem to be much bonding.
p-diddy Jul 1st 2008 3:02AM
SRSLY? People are mad because an officer is playing with their family? W-T-F?
That's ridiculous. Now, if it comes at the expense of regular raiding I can understand, but if it's some scheduled outside-the-guild-schedule instancing, that's just asinine.
-p-
Topsy Jul 1st 2008 3:28AM
Well said. I would not be happy in any guild that frowned upon any member - officer or not - spending WoW time with their family and RL friends. Especially if it doesn't involve missing a raid or something.
Anyone that takes issue with this needs a reality check.
Dranaerys Jul 1st 2008 3:56AM
Running guilds with a clique is a tricky thing. On the one hand you do want to take people to a raid who you know will be faithful with the guild and not dump your ass when they have got the gear upgrades you wanted, on the other you also dont want to alienate those sitting on the sub bench and have them leave the guild.
Hopefully things will be better for smaller sized guilds and groups running 10-mans in WotLK, though Im sure the clique factor will be even more evident in limited spot 10-man raids. I look forward to Guildwatch drama when peoplpe start wotlk raiding. :D
shoemanchris Jul 1st 2008 4:58AM
'Cliques' are inevitable. If you level with a bunch of people and start then raiding together then who are you going to choose to run with first? No-brainer!
This is why strong Guild leadership and Raid leadership is essential to keep things sweet. Run with your family/ friends/etc any damn instance you like but Raids need to be selected for max skill and commitment.
Hanging out with your closest people is not strange or to be criticised, it is the human default. But if you want to max your experience and learn more about the game you have to experiment with other people... come on be honest! Wouldn't you like to see what a real Hunter can do, instead of that Huntard nephew in 9th grade???
Jariaji Jul 1st 2008 6:46AM
I have always felt Cliques form new cliques. For example, i joined a guild where it had recently reformed from before, and many of the members were "old school" in that guild. I am not the most superbly social person, i keep myself to myself but help when needed and i have the time i do help. But i have noticed alot of people look down on people they see as not being old school, all apart from the GM and officers who invite me along to instances etc.
I notice a distinct trend that if i ask for help in an isntance, i get ignored, even if i whisper it. If however an officer is in my group and i ask him to ask, they all jump at the chance, a way to brown nose officers perhaps? or just a sense the officer is part of their clique?
Recently friends from preBC have started joinign the guild, and as someone else pointed out there was a stronger sense of guild identity in preBC, these are people i played with for 3+years, wiping on bosses from Ragnaros to the Four Horseman. So naturally i move towards them having my attempts to forge new relationships shunned by the so called "old school" guild members.
I have even stopped helping other guildies as much when i can, simply because the favour never got returned, they would take enchants, they would take gems and they wouldnt give much more than a brief "ty". Then when i was in need it would go back to them ignoring me. I am first to accept maybe i could be more outwardly social, i am not the type of guildy who screams "Hi All" every tiem i log on, i log on, and get on with what i want to do. But i see that as no reason why if i ask a question or ask for help, they dont even bother giving an answer, a simple, "no im busy" or a simple "no i cant come sorry" would suffice, im not asking for a wall of text.
But enough of the rant, i guess the point is, ive been driven into a clique by my guild in the end. People ive played with for years and people in the guild who gave me the dignity of responses and tried to help me out like i helped them out invariably leads to forming closer relationships. So naturally if one of them is online im going to ask them first, rather than waste my time asking guildies who dont think me old school enough to warrant a response.
Soatari Jul 1st 2008 10:19PM
You hit the nail right on the head. I'm in the exact same situation.
I'm actually more social than most of the guild members and I've definitely gained a reputation amongst most of the guild as the guy to ask for help because I always say yes (I love to help). But as soon as I need help myself, I'm almost always ignored completely, not even getting a simple "sorry I'm busy".
This has led me to develop a deeper bond with the other "helpers" of the guild, and we tend to plan stuff amongst ourselves first before reaching out to the guild (this is all outside of raiding of course). I've become less inclined to help the "leechers" and "users" (those who say they'll help you later but never do) because quite frankly, why should I be nice to you if you never return the favor?
But low and behold, these same people I labeled will jump at the chance to help out certain more popular members of the guild, even when only thirty minutes before they said they couldn't help someone else.
Xecnamalain Jul 1st 2008 8:27AM
being in my invite only family casual guild, we never have these problems. The only thing close is that, one of our top 3, hordes items for his GF, then asks me for mats for his chants IE mongoose, or her mooncloth set. I don't mind, because they are my outta wow friends. but I feel that they dont give me the help I need sometimes... *sigh* we'll see what happens when I ask for primals for my spellfire set ^^ GL HF!
Raaena Jul 1st 2008 8:54AM
My last guild was a mixing pot of people from a previous guild, and then all the people we had collected along the way as we progressed in 25-mans.
I know that there were some hurt feelings due to the way we did business on our non-raiding time. The officers all knew each other from our previous guild, and our play styles complemented each other. That meant that if we wanted to do a daily, or work on a timed ZA run, we usually played with a specific team. We liked to be quick about things, and you'd rather bring the lock that runs the needed DoTs and the healer who can heal and the tank that can stay alive than some untried new person who isn't used to how you do business.
I know we had several people get REALLY PO'd when we would do our Friday night power Kara runs for badges. Thing is, this was something that kept the officers "together." When we weren't dealing with the whining or the drama, we wanted a chance to kick back and relax. Kara was our chance to do that--and vent and our raid chat was questionable to say the least--that's not something you want to bring a new guildie into.
I always tried to raid with my husband--he didn't like raiding without me, and only did it a couple times because I had a migraine and couldn't sit through the raid time. He was given crap in a new guild we moved to because I was away on travel and he told them he wasn't raiding until I returned. Based on the level of BS he got, he said "forget this" and gquit, moving both his and my toon back to our alt guild.
People need to expect that cliques are going to exist--especially if it's a group that's been playing together for a while--people also need to accept that there are many who play with SOs--so they might always be a 2-person party LFM.
I've come to the conclusion that I want to take a group of friends with me into Wrath and do 10-man content. I started the game and played with friends, and I think at this point that's where I want to go back to.
Any guild you get into is going to have a clique. It's part of life. People just need to learn to roll with it.
andy Jul 1st 2008 8:55AM
not sure if anybody has noticed, but lots of people (i wouldn't say the majority, but comeon, you know who i'm talking about) spend so much time on the internet because they lack real-life social skills. some of them end up on trade channel talking about boobs or chuck norris, some of them end up in battlegrounds calling everyone names, and some just play quietly without bothering or befriending anybody.
these are people who experience the rejection/pain/whatever of being excluded from cliques on a daily basis at school or at work or wherever, so of course when it happens online as well they're gonna get bitter and leave or make a fuss, or something.
mainly i'm making this comment because most of the comments so far seem to be coming from people who DO play with friends/family and don't see why it's a big deal for others who maybe don't.
the fact that lots of the people saying it's fine are actually guild officers makes it even more complicated, but i won't get too much into that, or this comment would be much longer. simply put, if you're ignoring people in your guild, or giving some preferential treatment over others (even if they ARE your RL friends/family), then in my mind probably you shouldn't be a guild officer. i'm not saying any of you are even doing that, but if any of your guildies feel that way, chances are they're gonna leave, or start a mutiny. it just makes sense from that perspective.
maolrubha Jul 1st 2008 8:59AM
I've recently come to a fairly depressing decison:
Guilds are evil.
Raiding is evil.
Being a loot whore is evil.
People are mean.
Yesterday I turned off all channels - world defense, trade, general, and I would turn off whispers if I were allowed - and taken up pet collecting. I'm spending the next months until WotLK hoarding money and gems. As I'm on Moon Guard, I can easily explain it away in terms of RP. But the fact of the matter is that I'm just tired of inconsiderate, grabby people.
My Captured Firefly never rolls need on a +healing necklace as a rogue because the stamina is an upgrade. My whelplings never troll trade.
*goes back to counting his money*
maolrubha Jul 1st 2008 9:09AM
I'd just like to add as a sort of response to the poster above (re: social skills) that I transferred to MG because I had hoped that people would be somehow... different. I enjoy doing rather stupid things in the game anyways - hosting heavy leather ball parties, trying to three-man MC, grinding obscure rep - but people don't want to be nice. They want Stuff.
In past guilds, I've seen all of the problems listed above, but the biggest one seems to be the one that a lot of people had mentioned, which is:
1) Demanding or assuming participation when needed
coupled with
2) A complete lack of reciprocity
I've grown jaded, both by guilds and otherwise. I've bought every level 1-10 piece of armor and weapon in the AH, and distributed them in the lowbie zones. And half the time the people whom I'd give items to would ask me for gold as well. I've given away dozens, hundreds of green gems to, as I would describe it in trade, Promote Love, and have been viciously and vociferously attacked by dozens of people with nothing better to do than hate.
I think the poster above hit the nail on the head about anti-social types. It's just strange to be seeing myself turning into one as a reaction against the problem.
sigh.
zappo Jul 1st 2008 12:44PM
Actually if I saw a person like you on my server, I'd totally try to recruit them. My guild is always saying how I need to be more active towards recruitment but all I ever see is people who want to progress, or want loot, or want help. What I look for in a person is a goofball who can think out of the box and can make their own fun that isn't set down by parameters of 'go over here and kill stuff'. These are the people that really make the game more fun, even when times are tough.
Generally I'd say it's tough and you get jaded, but don't lose hope. Out of the millions of people that play WoW and the thousands upon thousands of guilds out there, there are some that are looking for a person like you.