Officers' Quarters: No empty slots
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.Last week I talked about the problem of filling raids, as TBC winds down and summer heats up. But some people are lucky enough to have the opposite problem: Too many people want to go, and there just isn't enough room for everyone. That's what the author of this week's e-mail is facing.
Scott:
I'm in a guild that's been progressing quite steadily in T6 content now that no one needs attunement for them. We got 4/5 Hyjal and 3/9 BT quickly, and while we've been a bit stymied on Archie we're getting to the point where we'll have him down soon enough.
The problem is, well, not much of a problem really for, oh, 25 of us.
You see, we're one of the two real raiding guilds on our server, Alliance side at least. The rest of Alliance is fighting their way through T4 content and just starting their way on the T5 stuff. But the serious raiders love to join up with our guild, a lovely thing for the most part.
Of course, this means that we've usually got 35 people on a raid night wanting to run. A few too many.
[T]he GM's strategy for this has been asking if any of the better/better-geared players want to sit out any fights so the others can be brought in for a fight. If not, the second-stringers generally get put on the bench for the entire night.
Now, obviously, I've got a vested interest here. My attendance has been less than stellar this last while, and I've found myself put on the sidelines all night. I've never really encountered that, mainly because I'm a Paladin Healer, a rather good one too, and it's only been recently that our healing corps have grown to double digits. Of course, DPSers probably have been feeling left out a fair bit themselves.
I'm wondering, how should a GM handle having too many raiders for a night? Bring the best, always, unless one of them wants to sit out, or swap people around at logical points, even if it might decrease the effectiveness of the 25 people in the raid?
Kyri
I feel your pain, Kyri. I was a Holy paladin myself, but lately I just didn't feel as useful as I once did. Holy paladins have it tough these days. They can't heal on the move and they can't heal more than one person at a time: a huge disadvantage for the many mobile, splash-damage-happy encounters in the current endgame. I'm lucky enough to have collected a decent tanking set as a healer, so I've switched to Prot for the time being. Some of our tanks have gotten a bit burned out, so the timing has worked out well.
But not everyone can so easily switch roles, and in successful guilds like yours, people do wind up benched. It's unfortunate, but it's the reality of learning content. Your guild has only scratched the surface of Black Temple and hasn't conquered Hyjal. Until you do, your raids have to do what's best for progression.
I have to say I'm against the whole "volunteering to step out" idea. If a player didn't want to be in the raid, they wouldn't be there. Asking people to step out just puts the burden of the decision back on your members. It makes the players feel guilty for even wanting to go, and it makes those waiting on the outside feel even more like the kids who get picked last for kickball.
It's also a bit of a cop-out for the officers and raid leaders. They don't have to make the tough calls -- they can just wait 10 seconds for no one to respond and then continue on as planned.
You also have to consider this: Your best and brightest had to spend a lot of time, gold, and effort to learn the early encounters. They deserve the chance to farm them for the gear they need while they're spending the time, gold, and effort to learn the later bosses. And that's why no one is volunteering to step out.
A more honest approach would be communicating a real plan for filling raid slots. My guild, even though it's a casual environment, makes no qualms about bringing the best and brightest to progression runs. If you want to keep moving forward, you need a consistent team of individuals. Every encounter in Warcraft is about learning from mistakes and finding the best way to approach the challenge. You'd like to think that you can just tell someone what to do and what not to do, and they'll do it, but the reality is that the only way to really learn the encounter is to beat it in person. The most nuanced description of a boss strategy, complete with maps, diagrams, kill videos, and a puppet show, can't train you like the real thing.
So bringing in new people all the time is only going to slow your progression. You'll have to explain the fights in detail and there's always bound to be someone who doesn't understand it completely, or who does something so bizarre that no one's even thought of telling them not to do that. If you spend too much time on the early bosses in a zone, you'll never get enough attempts on the later bosses to learn those encounters.
It's tough for those who don't make the cut. That's why, once my guild's progression team has beaten a zone, we start cycling in new people to reward them for their patience -- but only if they've done the grunt work. If someone is out of mana a minute and a half into an eight-minute brawl, or putting out 300 DPS less than everyone else, they obviously have more work to do.
Your benched players should be doing everything they can to improve their gear and their play, through farming the Tier 5 content, reading up on mechanics and macros, and, yes, watching those boss-strat puppet shows. That way, when they have a chance to show your progression players what they can do, they don't disappoint.
Eventually, everyone who's earned a slot is going to get the gear they need. And in two or three months, everyone is going to be sick to death of running the raid that people are dying to get into today. In progression situations, that's what everyone has to keep in mind.
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Zeplar Jul 7th 2008 11:10AM
Same sort of problem happened to my old guild; they solved it by calling raids Progression or Regular raids; in a progression raid only the top could go, in a regular it was often half or more alts. There were still 10 to 15 people left out each night though; I think the only solution is to have 5 or 10 other officers take the time to lead the grunts through 25-man content separately (run two groups at once).
Nettles Jul 7th 2008 11:22AM
He only has 15 extra, not 25 extra. Also, that would seem improbably to have that many t5/t6 geared tanks, healers etc.. I'm guessing the extras are mostly dps and amazingly healers.
Running alts through 25 man content would just spread out the problem, not focus on progression.
bpl121 Jul 7th 2008 12:45PM
Blizzard really fucked this up when they phased out 40-man raids.
Khanmora Jul 7th 2008 5:20PM
I hated 40 man raids with a passion, and I'm glad they switched. You actually feel like you are accomplishing something personally now. It's not nearly as easy to hide if you aren't pulling your weight now. And getting gear spread throughout the raid members is easier when you don't have 8 tanks vying for one tanking piece.
Nettles Jul 7th 2008 11:19AM
I'd have to counter that offering to let people sit out is a good thing to prevent burnout. It allows your raiders to have a night off to do dailies, mine/herb whatever, or just goof off on an alt.
My guild gives people who are officially on stanby a small amount of dkp. It's a motivator to be logged in and in communication with the raid leaaders even if you aren't in the raid. And often, people are pulled in for certain bosses. eg: extra healers for Bloodboil, extra mages for Illidan, extra rogues for RoS.
Until you have the boss on farm, do take your best group, and then rotate in people. But do rotate often, or people will get tired of benchwarming.
You have the advantage of being so far ahead on content, that people have no other option of a guild, except by transferring. Running off night heart of darkness/gem/trash epic farming is a good way to blow off steam too, with a larger raiding guild. No dkp trash epics is a big motivation!
Smurk Jul 7th 2008 11:26AM
Haris Pilton has this same problem.
drewstockman Jul 7th 2008 11:34AM
My guild solves this somewhat by giving standby members full-DKP the same as if they were in the zone. We encourage people to rotate out if they do not need a boss that is on farm. For progression, we will stack the raid with the best performing members.
Kiliani Jul 7th 2008 1:05PM
Same for both raiding guilds I've been in. Our members are encouraged to communicate with the officers, if someone doesn't need loot from a particular boss but someone else does, we do a lot of swapping in and out, and everyone who's available to be pulled in if needed gets full DKP (so long as they're in the zone where the instance is - logged in or not - and available to be reached in-game or in vent).
It helps to have a surplus of raiding members when things come up and a few of your core members are on vacation at the same time, or have family obligations or girlfriend aggro, or have a power outage and can't get online, or whatnot.
TobiasX Jul 7th 2008 11:36AM
Interesting problem, so I'll offer an interesting answer.
Right now lets assume you've got 35 people ready to raid Black Temple. You're seeing it as 10 people too many.
Wrong.
You're actually 15 people out of having 2 Black Temple raids. Sure you may have some trouble filling the last spots on a slacking night, but having 2 raid groups for T6 content on 1 night sounds pretty awesome to me. :P
May not work out every week, but have a think about it.
wowcheese Jul 7th 2008 11:40AM
I'm not a raider; but I couldn't help notice there weren't any Shamans listed on the raid picture. No empty slots and the Shaman was left at home ...
Asa Jul 7th 2008 11:56AM
It seems to be a screenshot of a pre-expansion Alliance raid. There were no Shaman available then :P
splotty Jul 7th 2008 12:00PM
I couldn't help noticing that:
1) all the members of the raid were level 60, and
2) there were 40 members of the raid
I somehow doubt this is the group who were attacking the Black Temple with the 15 extra members.
PeeWee Jul 7th 2008 12:03PM
Before time began, there was the 40-man raid. We know not where it comes from, only that it holds the power to down bosses and fill its pockets with loot. That is how our race was born. For a time, we lived in harmony. But like all great power, some wanted it for good, others for evil. And so began the war. A war that ravaged our game until it was consumed by death, and the 40-man was lost to the far reaches of the twisting nether. We scattered across the realm, hoping to find it and rebuild our home. Searching every star, every world. And just when all hope seemed lost, message of a new discovery drew us to an unknown realm called... Outland.
But we were already too late... for raid instances no longer allowed 40 people in. And Alliance now had access to shamans, like we never did before.
Tridus Jul 7th 2008 12:06PM
Asking people to step out does work, its not a cop-out. There's people who really dislike certain instances/bosses/just don't feel like raiding who show up anyway because they're committed (or want DKP). Giving them the option to step aside for someone that needs upgrades is a good thing.
Example: I hate Archimonde. Given the option, I'd rather sit out of that nonsense. But I show up to help my guildmates who still need loot off him.
Kareem Jul 7th 2008 12:07PM
My comment would be to try and make 2 raids...an "A" and "B" team...have them alternate dungeons, 1 go to bt, and other to hyjal...to work on content, if not enough to make 2 raids, use the partial group to run heroics etc to get better gear or work on lower tier dungeons to just practice content
Nettles Jul 7th 2008 2:08PM
Uh, have you even raided 25 man content? It's a huge process getting a solid group of raiders together. Balencing group make up and synergy can be really tough based on who';s available on a certain night. This guy is lucky to have lots of people to chose from.
A group and B group works ok for 10 mans, but is a bad idea for 25 mans imho.
The people who /gquit over having to sit a night or two? Good riddance. They turned out not to be team players. There's no room for drama divas in 25 mans.
Iwanttobeasleep Jul 7th 2008 12:58PM
Two suggestions:
1. Sitting out for an entire raid is a big deal. You miss out on DKP, and whatever boss(es) it is that you need. Try asking for a setup where someone can step out for certain bosses, or only show up for one. It'll be more work for the warlocks, because they'll need to summon straight into the instance, but I bet your raiders will be a lot more keen on letting the undergeared get a chance at the bosses that aren't going to drop for the geared, while the geared can do dailies or farm.
2. Experiment with scheduling and preassigned groups. They're a bitch to keep track of, but they let the geared raiders know what nights they're needed, and what nights they can stay off. A big problem with asking people to step off is that it happens after all the players have made plans to be playing for the duration of the night. If geared player X knows undergeared player Y is taking his spot in advance, X can make other plans.
Oh, and of course, keep recruiting! Fielding two 25-man teams is the best situation.
Pipsquacky Jul 18th 2008 11:24PM
Adding on to Iwant's idea #2 is what we finally found to be successful, invite "groups." We tried the two team approach two times and one always did better than the other and the fighting ensued and the /gquit was common.
Finally, we divided all who wanted to raid (and met our minimum stat requirements for the instance) into two different invite groups, let's say Red & Blue. Invite group priority would alternate each week. So, one week was a Red week and all Red raiders that signed up would get approved (properly balanced for role of course) while all Blue raiders would be wait-listed until sign-ups closed a few hours before the instance started. ALL raiders were encouraged every week to sign up for events in the calendar because no one invite group had enough people to fill the whole raid.
Once sign-ups were closed, the RL would then approve the wait-listed people to fill out the empty spaces.
The two advantages we found with this, since we started it on 10-person content, was that:
1) People stopped complaining about never being able to get into a raid because they knew that so long as they signed-up they'd get to go at least every other week;
2) It completely avoided any sense of people being left behind or left out of the "best player" group. Because blank spaces were filled by the off week's invite group there was always an intermingling of the players and we all progressed together. So, when we were ready to start 25-person content, we all actually liked each other and were familiar with each other's play styles.
This system was a beautiful thing for our guild.
mr applebutter Jul 7th 2008 1:18PM
As a GM I start to over-recruit classes when we don't have consistent attendance. Having flaky healer attendance? Recruit more. Then the people who show up half the time realize their spot is in jeopardy and when they whine about no invites, you can cite their attendance % and tell them the reason you recruited so many healers is because they weren't reliable.
Gimmlette Jul 7th 2008 1:21PM
Kyri mentions "we're one of the two real raiding guilds on our server..." It's because his/her guild is so successful that other players, wanting more content and progression than their current guild can provide, are coming asking to raid. I would worry if guild members are being shunted aside in the drive for guild progression. From my POV, guild members should not be the ones sitting on the sidelines if there are open spaces in a raid. They need to be learning the fights. As nice as you might want to be and, in the interest of being able to call upon X toon to fill a slot when needed, I don't think you should be helping others with their progression if you have guild members who need it. I'm wondering what your guild gets from that other than downing the bosses you need for progression. It's hard to need bosses down and have to get people to learn a fight to begin with. I just have concerns that you're not teaching the right people when you add someone from outside the guild in the place of someone inside. I understand various fights need various classes, so, in that case, it's a perfectly legitimate need. But, if it's just to feel slots #21-25 and those going are not from your guild while guild members sit out, that's not going to go over well. Just my two cents.