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All of the latest Mists of Pandaria newsForum post of the day: A crushing blow to Warriors?
by Amanda Dean 
Jul 11th 2008 at 3:00AM
Due to itemization and abilities, Warrior and Paladin tanks currently have a greater ability to avoid Crushing Blows than Druid tanks. In the near future, this may become a moot point. Khurg of Spirestone, a Tauren Warrior, worries that Warrior tanks may become somewhat obsolete with the removal of Crushing Blows from boss mobs and a potential thirty second cool down on Shield Block. He asked "What will be the purpose of defense in WotLK ?" The following response from Rawglrlrgll of Lothar was that the defense statistic prevents critical strikes and still buffs the chance for avoidance.
A discussion ensued about the role of tanks in Wrath of the Lich King. Fungus of Altar of Storms responded that each of the four tanking classes in Wrath will have separate foci. Warriors will be mitigation tanks that rely on evasion at the armor cap. Paladins will have less armor than Warriors, but will continue to AoE tank. Death Knights are slated to rely on resistances for tanking. Druids will become less viable as main tanks, but will still serve as off tanks. This is seen by many Druids as getting "the shaft."
Some suggested taking a passive approach until Wrath is released, but others feel that if they don't speak out now, changes won't come until months after the expansion. From what we've seen of Wrath so far, do you think the face of tanking is about to be changed forever?
Filed under: Druid, Paladin, Warrior, Raiding, Death Knight, Forum Post of the Day
Reader Comments (Page 3 of 5)
Kathoz Jul 11th 2008 1:48PM
Yeah, that would seem good, and considering Druids need a niche, burst threat might be it.
It's not the case at the moment, however, since Warriors do most TPS.
I think Blizz themselves are confused lol
Andrethir Jul 11th 2008 7:36AM
Here are two possibilities to help warriors out (off the top of my head, they may be useless, I'm not awake yet):
Increase rage gain from damage dealt in Def. Stance, this allows for high mit. without rage starvation (perhaps balanced by a slight reduction in rage gained from crits while in DS to balance it?).
Provide a solid AoE mechanic for threat generation. TClap is nice, and the talent in WoWHead's calc looks cool, but something *akin to but not as awesome as what pallies can do* would be good. Balanced with a higher rage cost than normal for that skill, or a longish ( > 6 sec.) cooldown?
Markainion Jul 11th 2008 7:43AM
I wont cry about warriors, because there seems to be a lot more changes to the game than new talent points can predict the outcome with. Gear will be massively changed, and all tanks are suppose to be able to do better DPS than has be previous has done compared to pure DPS classes. Who knows, people may start picking tanks as much for the DPS contribution than their survivability. Warrior could do well as DPS tank, I know protection spec doesn’t do much for DPS, but maybe a hybrid build will someday shine again, like pre BC, with 71 talent points.
For those that keep thinking warriors that have been spoiled, stop whining, I have many high level characters, and most classes have there strengths and weakness, warrior particularly need a healer to do well, and aren’t that great solo. I mean paladins are usually the hardest things to kill solo, with exception of getting feared to death by warlocks. But locks are usually only powerful with the right pet out, and that isn’t always easy to predict which pet you will need. But anyway major changes are coming to many classes, and no one know which classes is going to be consider the most overpower at level 80, until months after people start getting there and getting well geared
Snarl Jul 11th 2008 8:30AM
"For those that keep thinking warriors that have been spoiled, stop whining..." This statement tickled my funny bone for some reason.
Anyway, I do agree with Markainion in that it is way too early to be making any comparisons. But if the rumours hold true and Bear tanks get sidelined as occasional OTs, I'll be re-rolling a Black Orc main.
Who am I kidding; I'll likely be doing that already regardless. ;)
ian Jul 11th 2008 8:21AM
warrior's had it all until this little thing called DAMAGE was normalized. Since that day, slowly the warrior has been the most nerfed class in the game.
Angus Jul 11th 2008 8:59AM
And yet every time we go to try a new boss, it is a warrior standing in front of that boss.
The druid is either a cat or is off-tanking and keeping 2nd in case one of the many panic buttons fails.
The tankadin is in a healing set unless there are adds.
Yea, they are obviously the most nerfed class in the game...
Here's a litmus test for that declaration. When a patch is announced, do you cringe and wonder what other class got buffed which is a direct pvp nerf for your class, or do you look for where they worded the nerf in your class to make it look like a buff or bug fix.
(example: 5pt talent changed from 6% to 5% for consistency when they don't do that to another class that also gets 6% from 5pts in one of their trees)
Most nerfed class in the game is not warriors. They just haven't been touched that much. Shaman would have loved to have been ignored. They might be better off.
wild Jul 11th 2008 9:53AM
Most dominating class in the arena for 4 season.
DPS rivaling that of rogues.
Number one tank in the game.
Yeah warrior are def the most nerfed class in the game /boggle.
ian Jul 11th 2008 11:31AM
if you've played a warrior since release, then you would understand what i am saying.
infection Jul 11th 2008 3:54PM
You stated it.
Gives examples. Otherwise I agree 100% with wild.
His examples show that obviously you aren't playing your class right somehow.
Charles Jul 11th 2008 8:33AM
Uh, Fugus is talking out of his (sizable and furry) rear end. His math is totally wrong. Warriors don't tank at anything like the mitigation cap - that's what druids specialise in. I've not yet seen anything to suggest that will change in WotLK.
Charles Jul 11th 2008 8:42AM
(Look at Khurg's response for correct numbers)
Also, defense does not remove crushing blows except as a side-effect of contributing to the avoidance + block totals necessary for paladins and warriors to push them off the hit table.
Jukasa Jul 11th 2008 8:34AM
With Fury being one of the best DPS already there is no need for Warrior being the absolute top tank anymore. Either one of them has to go. Hybrids cant have it both ways, you know!
Angus Jul 11th 2008 9:22AM
Warrior: Best tank to make healers feel better. Less healing needed overall, good threat mechanics once their DPS in tanking mode is improved to add to threat.
Weak against fast hitting mobs.
Paladins: Best Aoe tank. Best tank to take lots of fast hits. Needs to be targeted to generate mana for threat.
Weak against casters.
Death Knight: Best spellcaster tank. Will slow their damage, reduce it and hold their attention through these moves while beating on them.
Weak against bosses that require blocking or do fast hits.
Druid: Best generalist tank. Largest HP pool and armor. Can take damage from casters, packs of melee, and single bosses that hit hard or hit fast. Not the best at any of them, but probably second best against all. Best at generating threat when not being attacked and so best off-tank on bosses that require the 2nd on list absorb hits.
So how can we make this work?
1: You need 1 of every one of these for every major encounter, not just the trash. This means bosses should have phases that introduce mechanics where every one of these tanks is used.
2: See #1.
Example of this design:
Solarian. She starts casting and each tank takes a turn taunting her to take her damage while the raid goes insane. (This can be currently done, all 4 could do this.)
Phase 2 starts, large pack of melee mobs shows up. Tankadin holds them. He allows AOE to kill them while the other tanks grab the priests and Solarian.
2 priests spawn, and Solarian show up. all 3 have to be tanked. DK grabs Solarian and stops her from doing much. Warrior and bear grab priests and keep them from healing with either their interrupts (or stun in bear's case) or just holding them while melee does.
This continues until she turns into easymode. You still need a tank. Warrior can easily handle her, as could any of them.
Now if we were to tweak this for the new content and to be fair, we'd put in a mechanic where that easymode wasn't. She hits hard and slow and an off-tank is required to suck up some sort of hit. Warrior and bear shine in this. This lets all 4 do their job, makes them all have important roles, and you won't see them feel like crud. To mix it up you can have the tankadin have to take the boss in some way and the warrior tank some slow, hard hitting mob that they excel at.
Make every boss fight in WotLK work with mechanics like phases where the boss changes (bear boss), adds (see above), an off-tank keeping melee alive (gruul), and magic damage being shot around like it's going out of style (shade, but with an aggro table) and you can easily make all 4 tanks important in every aspect and able to contribute.
No one likes having to sit out a boss or do something they normally don't because the designers were lazy.
I see 4 tanks as a great idea. Having them contribute more to DPS and all have focus areas will give raids a great tool.
Sorry for the wall of text.
Ravenblight Jul 11th 2008 11:40AM
Doing every fight like this would get old fast and i am pretty sure people would get bored. Yes a few fights like this would be great but there'd have to be a few twists to keep it interesting and fun
They just need to balance tanking roles out better. I think all tanks should be viable and not questioned when main tanking a boss. Those "oh shit buttons" warriors have give them a very distinct advantage when people want to learn a fight.
Not everyone wants to only be The Trash Tank, The Off Tank, The Magic User Tank(come WotLK). Then boss comes you get asked to switch to heal gear(Paladin) if there is nothing else for you, Druid s got this part sweet as they get to either offtank or dps as its the same fricken spec. and for Prot warriors well you get to Dps...not the best dps but i have seen some Prot warriors do decent dmg in their dps gear.
So far i have tanked with a warrior and a Paladin, I plan on rolling a Druid so i could make a statement with a full understanding of the 3 current tanking classes.
Drew Jul 11th 2008 9:33AM
Well, as a Warrior tank I would not like to see anyone get nerfed, I love being able to roll fury for Kara and see a bear swipe tank or a protadin AoE everything, however I think where warriors are concerned:
1: If instances are going to consist of many multiple-mob pulls/large groups similar to many of the tougher BC instances (H MgT) allow warriors (and maybe druids) to hold threat on groups a little better (tab sundering just seems to be a little more than playing your class properly and less than enjoyable for me) to make them popluar for those 5 - 10 man runs
and
2: Make it a little easier for classes that decide not to tank to play DPS/healer roles-
DPSing Kara as fury doesnt really work unless I am geared to the nines unlike a well specced Warlock in blues.
That and rolling prot so you can tank is boring as hell unless you are tanking instances or have an amazing DPS set of gear (at least healadins and resto druid's can heal through soloing/pvp + the new "spell power"? stat convergence)
Just my two cents.
Saeverud Jul 11th 2008 9:58AM
Angus summed it up really really nicely. Tanks all have their special niches, which is okay, but it's not like other tanks -can't- fill other rolls. I'm a paladin, I've MTed all the bosses in Kara, ZA and what not. I'm not as good as a Warrior doing it, but I can do it. And at a few points, like the princes second phase, I'm actually better at it, because I don't fall into that crushing range like a warrior does.
Getting rid of Crushing blows is a bit of a boon for all tanks. I originally thought it was a bit of a nerf to Paladins, cause being uncrushable was one of our selling points. But now, tanks don't need to stack avoidance quite as much,to reach that golden number, and can focus on things that raise DPS and Threat.
And for bears well, it's not really a nerf. Because now you're no longer taking those huge crushing blows. So you're the HP soak tank. Still having at least 10k more HP than the highest warrior or paladin, and more armor to boot, you'll be able to take far more hits for a longer period or time. And lets face it. Druids are the threat tanks as well. Which means your DPS will be able to rock out more than other tanks.
Menalaous Jul 11th 2008 10:15AM
All you bitching and complaining Druids and Pallys and DK to bes. No, you may not be able to currently tank a boss fight quite as well but you forget. You have other uses in raids. Warriors dont. Its few and far between that you find a raid that willingly takes on a fury warrior unless said warrior is the raid leader. We tank or we pvp thats it really. Druids. You TANK AND DPS on same tree and the tree is viable for pvp as well. You have yet another valid tree for only pvp really and then one more valid tree for healing. You are guarentteed raid entry. Pally's. I'll admit that your ret spec is 75% of the time useless. Not because it is a "bad" dps spec but because most people dont know how to play it. ( I play a ret pally). YOu have a tanking spec thats great for AoE tanking and AoE pvp, the second best base AoE PvE in the game. Same spec as your tank spec hmmmm. And you have... A HEALING SPEC. Yes as a pally I was upset that I was stuck healing. Yes as a druid I was for a while as well but you know what. As a warrior we are stuck tanking. Thats it. And our tank spec is next to useless in PvP or PvE questing. If you take away the few things that make us an amazing tank then you take away our raid viability and leave us with daylies and Arena.
And as far as the "best tank for 5-10 man content goes. Dont forget that in WotLK ALL RAIDS can be 10 mans. Even arthas. So where does that leave warriors now? Or even the arguement that druids or pallys are only good for MTing 5-10 mans and tanks for anything bigger. Hmmm, no uncrushability and no large raids that warriors are neccesary for. Hopefully Titans grip makes us more appealing as dpsers
Ryan Jul 11th 2008 10:48AM
There will always be room for a prot warrior in a raid. No, raids won't be stacking them as they have in the past, but hopefully no single spec will ever be stacked and the max three of a class you may take to a raid will be one of each tree.
Shilkanni Jul 15th 2008 11:06PM
This is the first time I've ever seen the phrase "AoE pvp". I'm pretty sure you made this up to help with your point. Prot Pallies and Prot Warriors are without a doubt the two most useless specs in PvP.
ginka Jul 11th 2008 12:57PM
I think that on a basic level, the high reliance upon tanking for PVE content is a game design flaw. Anything Blizzard can do to make tanking more accessible -- easy to learn, hard to master -- would be welcome.
I've tanked up to Kara on a Warrior and a Druid, and I'm at least *told* I'm skilled. I use my whole toolbox, I work with my healers, and I use good judgement. And I love tanking.
And still, I'm saying that tanking needs a re-vamp.