Breakfast Topic: Improving the noobgrind
by Alex Ziebart 
Jul 14th 2008 at 8:00AM
As The Burning Crusade has progressed, there have been a lot of improvements made to the leveling process for lowbie alts. Revamping low level dungeons, reducing how much experience is needed to level up, nerfing the elites so most quests are able to be solo'd, and anything else I may have forgotten. Now in 2.4.3, as we've mentioned time and time again, you'll be able to get your first ground mount at level 30 instead of level 40.The community is really, really split on this. Some say Blizzard has gone too far, some say they haven't gone far enough. Personally, I'm in that second half... conditionally. You see, I have four level 70 characters, coming up on five. I like to have a variety of top level characters, just so I have some feel of how they play or I can help my friends out if they need it. I can supply a tank, a healer, DPS with CC, DPS without CC, et cetera. Leveling is by no means hard, I don't think I ever put active effort into any of them past my first. It's very easy.
However, it is boring after the first time. Boring boring boring. While I adore the old world, it is very linear. There is a little overlap in zones, but the path you take is pretty much the same each time. This is mixed up a little in Outland as the zones overlap better once you're done with early Hellfire Peninsula and Zangarmarsh. You can branch out into the other zones if you'd like, and you're not punished with exceedingly long travel times anymore.
I want to skip Azeroth. I love it, but I don't want to grind through it anymore. I don't think that the lowbie leveling process even contributes to learning your class. You don't really know what you're doing until you're closer to the level cap. I would really really like it if you could just start at Outland and work from there.
That may be a little extreme, but hey, I'd love it. How about you guys? Do you hate how quick leveling has become? Love it? Should it be faster still? Do you have any better ideas as to how to make leveling alts more fun?
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Breakfast Topics, Leveling, Alts
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 6)
Elmo Jul 14th 2008 8:10AM
I just wish they redid more areas like they did with Dustwallow.
going through Duskwood for the 15th time is not fun at all.
doc Jul 14th 2008 8:18AM
Much like they are letting you start a deathknight at 55 - maybe have an option to start a toon at 40, once you have a level 70 character _on that server_ ? That way, it takes a large chunk of the grind out of the picture, it acts like a mini gold sink for top tier toons - as they have to gear up the level 40 character, and it leaves a good amount of the grind still to go, so that way it's not completely EZ mode, just less boring mode....
Naix Jul 14th 2008 10:37AM
So true. I think once you hit 70 every character after that should come in as 70. You have already experienced leveling so why make you go through 6 weeks of doing the same thing again? Just give us the option of making a 70 right out of the gate.
Badger Jul 14th 2008 11:39AM
"So true. I think once you hit 70 every character after that should come in as 70. You have already experienced leveling so why make you go through 6 weeks of doing the same thing again?"
I gotta say ... Personally, I think that's a little ridiculous. I do, however, agree that starting from L1 all over again is equally ridiculous.
I like the compromise Doc suggested above, in which a player with an L70 could create an L40 and get started much sooner. That seems like an excellent point at which to get started: You've got your Mount, many classes get their upgraded Armor training ... Just plain sensible.
Here's what I think would make sense: Maybe if you reached L70 with your first Character, then all Characters *of the same Race* could then begin at 70, while Character of *other races but the same Faction* would begin at L30 or L40.
For example: If you have an L70 Draenei Priest, you could then create an L70 Draenei Paladin, or an L40 Human Warrior. You could not, however, create an L40 Orc Hunter without running through the Horde starting quests / areas and hitting L70 - at which point, that L70 Orc Warlock and L40 Troll Shaman you'd planned on would become available.
Lastly, these characters could come with "prefab," same-name Armor sets, much like the DK's starting Green / Blue Armor. That way, you're off to a solid start, but you can still PvP, grind, and Raid for (and celebrate when you find) better gear.
Make sense?
Naix Jul 14th 2008 11:56AM
@ Badger
Good point. Anything but starting over again would be welcome. L40 or L70 same race would be fine, just not 0 again. Sure the first 20 level come quickly but after that it feels like a grind.
ZekeGrimsblade Jul 14th 2008 10:29PM
@Badger
I understand what your saying about the once levelled a race, always levelled, but to me it seems wiser to do that class style. So I level a NE Hunter. Get him to 70, why not then turn around and use that rule and get a Druid. I think it would be better to do, once you've levelled a hunter, all later hunters afterwards would be 70 to start. That way, no instant druids. Because, quite frankly, there is no comparison to a Druid and a Hunter, even though both of them are beast oriented. And getting a level 70 Druid is quite confusing, as I have experienced on the Test realms. Even getting a 70 of a class you are fairly familiar with can be intimidating, much less one you haven't levelled yet.
Samualo Jul 15th 2008 2:51AM
I agree, I don't want to start in the outlands I like working my up from the start. How ever there are people who would like that choice and I got no problem with that, but having them redo all the old area's new quest ect... then adding onto them with new places to go, would be awesome. Why should expansion packs only be about high level stuff? Why not add a whole new lowbie area, and lowbie things that make players want to start over, not only to give brand new players people to group with, but keep the old stuff alive and not just letting it die.
astromoose Jul 14th 2008 8:15AM
I've played on-and-off twice since the open beta, and have only really got on with WoW properly this time round. Previously I only managed lv30 as a Rogue on a pvp server.
I've really enjoyed meandering through (to lv56 so far) this time, as a pure prot-spec Warrior. A lot of people on my friends list that I've met throughout the levels are already lv70, leaving me in their dust!
The improvements to levelling are great, it's nice to be able to sit down and achieve a level or two in one sitting. I look forward to mounts at 30 for my next alt! :)
Jonathan Jul 14th 2008 8:15AM
levelling should act as a sort of process that gets you used to playing your class, but obviously the problem with this is you can't level up to 70 as resto/holy or a tank with ease.
That's what I think needs to change, make it so people can decide what they want to level at when they're in their first few levels, then stick to it past endgame.
Todd Jul 14th 2008 12:56PM
So true. I tried leveling my Shaman Resto and made it to 40 before wanting to gouge my heart out with a spoon because it was so painful. Dual wielding enhance is so much more enjoyable until I can respec to resto again at 70.
JDM Jul 15th 2008 11:40AM
I think it really depends on the player - I tried leveling a Paladin as both Ret and Prot... Neither works for me. IMO, both of those specs are simply horrible for leveling, but as Holy it's a walk in the park for my play style.
What you're saying there about the point of the leveling process, I agree with, and I feel the boosts they have made to leveling speed leads to more 'noobs' at 70. I leveled most of my characters pre-2.0, and yes, the speed of leveling was agonizing at times, but it was a rite of passage.
Making it through to 60 really meant something, not many people had more than one 60 back then. Now? I have 6 level 70's and 5 more characters between 55-65. Am I expected to be 'pro' at all of the classes I have at 70? I sure hope not, as some of them I'm not really that great at. The same has happened to others as well. They know the basics of the class, but they really don't excel at it. Previously, we had all the time in the world to devote to our precious level 60.
There is also a downside to the increase in leveling speed. Just the other day in a wowinsider post, they were discussing how by the time you get ready to do an instance (pre-BC), you've out-leveled the place, and many people never get to see the old instances their first time through the game. Blizzard has also removed almost all group quests pre-BC, which in addition to few people going to old instances, means many players seldom, and sometimes never, group up with others. This leads to people who don't know their role(s) in parties, and bad PuGs in Outlands.
This isn't a universal thing. Some players can pick up WoW for the first time and be pro from day one, and that's fine, but it doesn't generally occur.
As for "after you have a 70", I feel that what -should- have happened is either no experience/leveling speed buffs OR that only players who have gotten to 70 at least once got the buff. First time players should have to suffer through a longer leveling process to get to know their class.
I'm also of the school of thought which feels there needs to be 'attunements' for leveling (UNrealistic example: To gain experience beyond level 20, you must successfully defeat VanCleef in Deadmines). Something, anything, to get players to group and overcome challenges to progress through the game, aside from simple grinding/solo questing. It's an MMO for a reason.
In your second paragraph, were you saying that talent specs should be more permanent? I like the idea, except for the fact that many first-time players might "mess up", like the people who thought you're supposed to fill up every box in all three trees, until someone corrects them at level 46... It would definitely allow players more time to become accustomed to their specs, and likely better once they hit the end-game.
As for the others who want to start at a higher level? I just don't think it should happen. A level 40/50/60/70 with no/white armor, and no gold of its own, no professions... A character should be able to get by without support from alts, and it doesn't sound like fun to have to start your character at level 50 and have to go back to Elwynn/Tirisfal/etc to farm Peaceblooms/Copper and skill up from there for hours/days/weeks (depending on your ability to skill up professions) in order to get to your starting level's skill range. Sure you could just proceed to go to level 70/80 and then go back, but leveling professions, for many, is much easier if done while leveling the character (enchanting, anyone?)
rhaziel Jul 14th 2008 8:20AM
I think that for every character you get to 70, you should get the option of creating that same character type at 70 on any realm. that way those people that are unhappy with their race choice do not need to be punished.
This should not be cross factional, since the different factions have different content / quests.
I'd also like to see a points system where you reach a goal with your main, (ie down a certain boss raiding or wth pvp get a certain amount of honor / arena points ) and your alts can benifit by gaining XP. Sort of like A buff for your account.
Of course that doesnt mean afk farming and since we can't legally share accounts anyway, the idea is that one player is getting their skill in-game rewarded even if they don't have heaps of time. (ie not having to choose between leveling and raiding)
Asmodean Jul 14th 2008 8:18AM
I think in its present state, Azeroth is a disaster. There's a total of 2 (two!) instances that you have a reasonable chance of grouping for (that being, the Deadmines and Scarlet Monastery). Even as a Holy priest, I found leveling in Azeroth to be an awful grind - and nothing, not even Jame's brilliant Alliance leveling guide, makes things tolerable.
Don't get me wrong - I love Azeroth. I think some of its architecture and zones are magnificently designed (to this day, I remember entering Stormwind for the first time with my Level 6 Paladin and being blown away by the buildings and the music). But there is a very clear divide in terms of design philosophy behind Outland leveling and pre-TBC leveling. The former makes leveling a breeze and rarely a grind, with tons of experiences awarded and many interesting quests to keep you going. The latter offers travelling around like a maniac, doing quests in circuits and grinding out a few levels for maximum effect - and with very lousy item rewards to show for it.
I think Elmo is right - what could really breathe life back into Azeroth insofar as alts are concerned is a redesign of all quests there, similar to what happened in Dustwallow Marsh, with the intention of making leveling a lot more like the Outland model.
Having levelled a fair amount of alts myself, I find that the part I dread the most is not Outland leveling (in spite of the fact that XP requirements are so much higher), but, rather, getting to 58 in Azeroth.
mk Jul 14th 2008 9:02AM
i'd like to disagree with you. i'm leveling my fourth toon to 70 right now and i'm dreading going to outland. i think azeroth allows much more freedom in where and how you can level and outland is a very narrow constricting environment. since they made the changes to the leveling curve, you'll often find yourself outleveling content instead of scrambling to fill up your time wondering where you should go next. this frees you up to skip the stuff you don't like. since those leveling changes none of my toons have set foot in stv, desolace, blasted lands, searing gorge, or burning steppes to level. in outland though, i have no choice but to do all those water quests in zangarmarsh, all the boring quests outside auchindoun, and every quest in the hated blade's edge. i'm even getting sick of nagrand at this point. in azeroth there are always new quests to discover and little corners to find that you may have missed before. if it seems boring, maybe you're just doing the same quests you've always done..
and i'm not sure how you're having so many problems finding groups. in the last couple months i've had no trouble finding groups for ZF, ST, etc. on a midpop server playing horde. maybe you play at 900am on weekdays? :)
Nathan Jul 14th 2008 8:37PM
Pre TBC on my server (Bonechewer), there was never any trouble grouping for ANYTHING in Azeroth.
BFD, BRD, RFD, RFK, ULDA, ZF, SM Cath, SM Arm, SM Lib, SM Grave, UBRS, LBRS, Scholo, Undead Strat, Living Strat, Stockades, VC(Deadmines), DM Tribute, DM North, DM East, DM West.
The things that were hard to group for were ZG, AQ20, MC and any of the end-game raids.
Now it is the opposite in some ways. It is nigh on impossible to find ANYONE to group for any instances in Azeroth at all, and even harder to find groups for instances in Outland that aren't heroic dailies, or 10 man Raids.
Even the majority of outland is completely dead. All of the levelling Zones are dead. Everyone is at 70 and flying so you barely see anyone anymore.
Instances are there to break up the grind and make levelling easier / faster, however noone goes to levelling dungeons anymore.
Something needs to be done
ootter Jul 15th 2008 7:03AM
ummmm... you leveled as a holy spec'd priest? it is your own fault that it was as bad a grind as it was
Asmodean Jul 15th 2008 8:48AM
@4 Ootter
For the most part, I levelled as Shadow, but I did respec to Holy a few times to run instances, mostly to acquire some rudimentary experience of healing so as not to end up at Level 60 without having healed anything in my life.
I've always levelled a bunch of other chars - some of them DPS classes - to 60, and, always, Azeroth was about the least pleasant experience of my leveling life.
Sirg Jul 14th 2008 8:17AM
I don't know how do you have time to play 5 level 70 chars.... I have a strong main and I find it difficult to reach level 70 with an other. Maybe you have lots of free time.
Imo, they should allow you to create level 60 chars, after you complete a long "attunement" chain quest, much like the prequisites for Champion of Naaru (minus some of them).
You should be able to transfer soulbound items after that to your alt, share reputation levels, etc. But this should be earned the hard way, not like the way you'll get a DK at level 55.
Tbh, WoW is going to much towards esports, pvp and pve wise, and the social part is neglected to say the least. Gear matters most in WoW, which is sad. Even crafting skills aren't important at all.
JDM Jul 15th 2008 11:47AM
"You should be able to transfer soulbound items after that to your alt."
This would enable players to use their T6 player to roll/bid/dkpbuy T6 tokens and give them to their just-hit-70-in-greens alt. Talk about very imba!
Brucimus Jul 14th 2008 8:18AM
Honestly i really like leveling the way it is,
My first character was about lvl 40 when BC came out and i rushed so hard to get to 70 so i wouldn't miss out. Now i've spent so long tanking and pvping, i've gone back and began leveling some alts, and i'll be honest. I prerfer ;eveling, taking my time to look at all the zones, take in some lore, and do some dungeons.
End game seems a bit boring at the moment, i'm enjoying the journey. Cos once you hit 70, the effort will be for naught soon enough. You just have to level again.
Oh and mounts at 30 is a good thing, i hate walking :P