Forum post of the day: Winning isn't everything
by Amanda Dean 
Jul 14th 2008 at 3:16AM
I love most of the battlegrounds. Oddly enough, even as Horde,
Aparently not every feels the same as I do. Pigskin of Medivh is unimpressed with mark farming. Even if it's a premade losing team, there are still often folks who get pugged into their groups who can't do much alone when they lack the support of their team. She's hoping for a response from Blizzard.
Throughout the thread Pupster made arguments for why people should be allowed to play the game however they want. If that includes mark farming, let them farm. Most of the other responders disagreed with her, claiming that such behavior is a violation of the spirit of the game. This makes mark farming against the terms of use. It does no good to report players afk, as they can enter battle. They're not really there for honor anyway.
I experienced it for the first time in
Even as the 'benefactor" of three easy marks, it ruffled my feathers some. I agree with Samis of Windrunner, I just don't see the point of working for PvP gear if you don't actually enjoy the PvP.
I've never heard of Blizzard taking action against losing premades. Some of the posters have said that it's happened. We talked about this a bit on the WoW Insider show. It doesn't seem all that different from honor farming afk, which Blizzard has attempted to stop.
Should Blizzard do something about intentional losses?
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, PvP, Forums, Battlegrounds, Forum Post of the Day
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 5)
Calderstrike Jul 14th 2008 3:47AM
I actually saw this for the first time tonight. Went into a EotS and 12/15 of the alliance just stood at the starting point. We won quick and it was nice at first. It is discouraging, though, knowing this is what pvp is turning into, just a grinding session.
Chris Stout Jul 14th 2008 4:19AM
Not only that but as nice as it is to be on the winning side, you're sure to end up on the losing side and that's when it stings the most.
Personally I think anyone that is willing to AFK or BS their way through a BG needs to quit playing. Exploiting a loose-fit system that Blizzard apparently won't do anything about and screwing everyone else over, and when you talk to them about it they resort to the boring default "QQ MOAR" or some other stupid response.
It's just a proven fact that players only care about themselves for the most part.
These same asshats that exploit the system are the ones that cry a river when it happens to them, which I find quite poetical but it doesn't solve the problem.
jaladin Jul 14th 2008 7:05AM
bliz has already said that they consider it non-participation and will act on it (Even just the act of advertising for losing premades).
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5103808526&postId=52354833827&sid=1#1
Last post is from a blue clarifying it very clearly:
"It is against our rules, so please don't do it. Our policies are subject to modification, and while it is unlikely, they may change; in the meantime, if you see players forming a pre-made group to lose, please report them. "
Earlier the same blue posted that you should report any losing premades, and I've been actively doing that myself anytime I see them, and referring the people who are advertising for them to the thread referencing it being a TOS violation.
jaladin Jul 14th 2008 7:09AM
btw, there are numerous other blizzard blue posts on the forums that clearly state that losing premades are violations of the non-participation rules and that they will act on them.
For example....
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5281957697&postId=53773300167&sid=1#38
jerzz80 Jul 14th 2008 9:10AM
99.9% of WOW is just a grinding session.
Grind dailies for gold, instances for badges/drops, rep, marks, honor. its all the same.
when you have a game based on rewarding repetative tasks, mindless grinding is the outcome.
For me, i cant have fun unless I care about how I play. I am full epic PVP and love BG now more than ever. I dont even need the honor, but I like that I can almost single handedly change the outcome.
Winning is the only thing.
Fire Jul 14th 2008 3:46AM
Good point at the end there, it used to be you had to PVE to get good PVP gear... but now, you have to PVP to get good PVE gear.
BG Jul 14th 2008 2:46PM
Not just that but you have to do X pvp(Arena) to do get Y pvp gear(BGs).
Thats even worse because most people (myself included) still enjoy BGs even over arenas yet we are limited and required to do arena.
Brad Jul 14th 2008 3:57AM
I'd say a lot of this can be chalked up to pre-expansion blues. How common was this pre-2.4? How about the lead up to BC?
Jhet Jul 14th 2008 4:21AM
While you can chalk a lot of things up to pre-expansion, this isn't one of them. This started when welfare epics came out and it won't stop until something is done. Hell I think it may have started before then, I'm not sure.
That's like saying in order to solve boredom, go do something else that's boring too.
JDM Jul 14th 2008 7:42AM
That's when this started: Pre-BC. There was previously an effort-based rank system in order to get PvP gear (which was flawed, admittedly), and Blizzard decided to take it away and let anyone get any of the gear they wanted for honor/marks.
Once this happened, you started to get your major influx of AFK PvPers who were just there for marks and trickle honor. Before this patch happened, there were AFKers, certainly, but they were never able to achieve max ranks using that tactic, and thus never got the option to get any and all PvP gear available.
LK Jul 14th 2008 4:03AM
This is won't last. It is practically the same as win-trading and equally deplorable. Also, a player isn't justified in "play however they want" because it violates another player's right to play as he wishes to.
Just because someone pays $15, it doesn't mean one gets to mess with other player's equally valuable game time by forcing the players (who are on the SAME side) to lose. Even if there were 14 players out of 15 who try to throw the game, that lone 15th player still deserves a chance for winning and earning his 3 marks. I don't ask these players who just want their single marks to play their best, I ask them to play what is expected of them out of respect to the other players.
MisterMoose Jul 14th 2008 6:10AM
It will last until Blizzard changes how BGs work.
Right now you are REWARDED for quitting if you are going to lose anyway or if the game is going to be close. If you can lose in 10 minutes and get 1 mark or player for 30 minutes and get 1 mark, then many people will conclude the former is better. Now quitting goes against the nature of a lot of people (I never quit, for instance), but there are plenty that will give up if it gets them where they want to go faster.
To elaborate further, consider even a close game where both teams are playing very, very well. The losing side still only gets 1 mark, despite doing much, much better than a quitter team. The losing side spent a lot of time on that for no benefit. The losers there are punished harshly for even TRYING to win.
What Blizzard really needs to do is make bonus honor and marks scale depending how long the game lasts. If a game goes on for an hour then you should get twice as much bonus honor and marks than if it went for half an hour. That way people won't be punished for trying (and in fact they are rewarded since a longer game avoids as much queuing time).
edenxiii Jul 14th 2008 11:46AM
/agree with MisterMoose. Investing so much time and effort only to receive the same reward as a minimum of effort is completely illogical; that truly is beating your head on the wall.
Scaling rewards on performance makes the most sense, as there's nothing more demotivating than losing an hour-long WSG for 1 mark and 150 honor.
Wyatt Jul 14th 2008 4:26AM
The few times I've participated in losing mark farming, I'd already had plenty of honor from doing AVs and just needed a handful of WSG or AB marks to get what I was aiming for. Every time I've done so, we've advertised in trade channel to get a full group- billed as a losing premade- so that we don't screw over anyone actually interested in winning. I understand why people are against it, and I respect the opinions- but if it doesn't harm anyone, is it really tat terrible?
bigE Jul 14th 2008 4:55AM
It's nice that you fill up your group at least. I've been one of a few that got stuck with a bunch of losers dancing naked in Trollbane Hall. I understand the appeal of this practice, but I can't feel good about giving the Horde three marks and the bonus honor.
I think it would be really funny if two losing premades faced off. How long would it take them to realize it?
WeirdoKitty Jul 14th 2008 3:46PM
You do realize that while you're optimizing the time it takes for you to get 1 mark, you're also optimizing the time it takes for the other side to get 3 marks?
Over time this will lead to the other side getting better gear faster. It's great that you're not screwing over anyone on your team, but you're essentially screwing over your whole battlegroup.
It also screws over the players on the other side who wanted to actually play a game against other people, and earn a vicory through superior teamwork, strategy, and resolve.
Ametrine Jul 14th 2008 4:28AM
People don't care about PVP unless it's their twink pwning helplessly-outmatched lowbies.
They just care about getting the cool-looking gear so they can be the best-looking guy at the mailbox.
ILikePvPbuthatePvPers Jul 14th 2008 6:05AM
I have to disagree on the cool-looking comment... many of those gears are just butt fugly!
Why do Hunters need to look they're Halloween rejects??
I'm just glad Druid gear looks pretty good!
Saithir Jul 14th 2008 4:42AM
And the solution is so simple... Blizzard just needs to remove marks for losing the match.
Sure, there will be an outcry of people that like to lose, (just like with every change, so who cares) but then maybe some of them will actually *try* to win.
Arioch Jul 14th 2008 5:36AM
That would be a nightmare. It's bad enough that I'm forced to play BG's I hate (such as WSG) to get the marks... your "solution" would make me have to play (at least) twice as many matches of a BG I'd rather not be playing at all. And in some cases, it would make some gear impossible to get... there was a stretch during the Alliance boycott of AV where I was on the losing side about 30 times in a row.
No thanks.