Officers' Quarters: Spawning grounds
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.It shouldn't come as a shock to anyone, especially after the Wrath of the Lich King beta went live last week. In many cases, hardcore raiding guilds just aren't making the Big Push anymore. Many have simply disbanded. Prior to the expansion, there really isn't much reason for raiders to keep going at the same pace, unless there's still content they haven't seen. So what are all these raiders doing in the meantime? Some, much like salmon, are instinctively returning to the ancestral casual guilds where they first spawned. But should those guilds take them back? This week's e-mail asks exactly that.
Hello Scott:
I am a high ranking officer in a casual raiding guild on Khadgar.
Recently several top raiding guilds on my server are dissolving. Our guild is a casual raiding guild that are slowly progressing in SSC. We received several requests from former guild member that express interest in coming back into the guild. Most of them said they miss the friendly and fun environment our guild provides while still doing decent raiding.
This brings up the question of loyalty. Some of our officers think we should give them a second chance while others [are] against them [. . .] coming back. Most of these people have great skill and gear, I'm sure they can help with our progression, but on the other hand, we don't know if they will leave us again for a better raiding guild after getting some gear from us.
If you are the GM what do you think is the most logical choice?
Thanks
Findra
It's the circle of life for many raiders in an MMO. A player buys the game and makes a character. The first guild they join is almost certainly a casual guild, because a hardcore guild won't accept a novice player. This new player not only learns the game but eventually excels at it, to the point where the player has surpassed his or her peers in the casual raiding guild. Then, with a lesser or greater degree of drama, it becomes time to leave these familiar spawning grounds and move on to the big, scary ocean of hardcore raiding.
It's a big pond with the biggest fish around. It's exciting but intimidating. Loot is more plentiful, but you have to work hard to gear yourself here. It's a competitive environment and there are no handouts. Eventually, however, all the loot in the world doesn't seem worth the stress and effort anymore. The ocean grows stale and boring, and the player finds him- or herself longing for the comfort and companionship of the casual guild they grew up in. They swim back upstream, hoping to reunite with their former guildmates.
Findra, you are not alone here. This cycle seems to happen to my guild prior to every expansion. The question for us, as officers, is whether we allow these big fish to rejoin our modest schools, knowing they may one day grow restless again. It all depends on two things: the drama quotient and your raiding situation.
If they caused a lot of drama when they departed, many members of your guild may still have a bad taste in their mouth over the whole thing. Bringing a drama-prone gquitter back may lead to forgiveness, but it may also cause some unwanted flareups. In extreme cases, people who have been loyal to you the entire way may quit in disgust. That's obviously a worst-case scenario, but it doesn't mean it won't happen. That will force you to make a horrible decision between kicking the person who returned or watching a loyal member depart for good.
However, if the player left on good terms, you have much less to worry about. Maybe they have kept in touch and even helped your members from time to time. Most people will be happy to have them back, even if it's just for a few months. They can lend their expertise to your membership and help people learn to play better. Even if they're gone the second WotLK launches, they've still left in their wake a better, more prepared group to tackle the challenges of the expansion pack.
If you're not raiding at all right now, there's really no reason not to accept them back aside from any lingering bad blood. They won't be taking any drops, so if they leave before the expansion you've lost nothing. In the meantime, you've gained another person to help run alts through dungeons, to PVP with, or to grind up profession materials together.
If you're still raiding, the question is a bit trickier. It's true that they could take drops away from your loyal members and leave you in the lurch. Even though their main character probably doesn't need any of the drops in the raids you currently run, they may want to raid with an alt that does need the drops. So make sure your loot rules are clear on who gets priority so that loot continues to be distributed fairly. Still, they probably plan to stick around at least until the expansion, so any drops they receive (in addition to their knowledge and experience) will help you see more content prior to its inevitable obsolescence. If you're not sure that they plan to stay until then, just ask.
Your biggest concern, however, should be what happens when you start raiding at level 80.
Assuming they don't immediately jump ship when the expansion launches, they're going to be taking loot drops from the early raids like Naxxramas. Their excellent skills may help you to conquer the initial raids quicker. But once they gear up enough to apply to a raiding guild, their departure will leave a gap in your ranks. If your roster of raid-prepared, level-80 members is slim, you'll have to settle for another player who isn't as geared or skilled even though you're still struggling with some of the new encounters. You may even have to stop raiding altogether while someone prepares a toon to fill the void. The consequences of this stoppage could potentially be disastrous. You could lose even more members who don't have the patience to wait it out, setting you back even further.
So I caution those officers in casual raiding guilds, if you take these returning players back, and they plan to stick around to level 80, speak with them before you start raiding again. Glean their intentions before you hand out loot. It's not unfair to expect them to pass on loot that someone else who plans to stay could use. On one hand, by beating the boss, they've earned the right to roll or bid on a drop. On the other, they're going to use that gear to leverage their exit from your guild. I'm not saying you should shard every item they want out of spite, but if a particularly hard-to-get and valuable item drops, it's not unreasonable to want to keep it in the guild to help with your own progression. Just make sure to communicate exactly how you plan to distribute loot ahead of time so there are no surprises during the raid.
A zero-sum DKP system can make this sensitive situation much easier to manage. Just make sure that anyone who plans to leave agrees to stay until their DKP is at zero or higher. That way, if they've taken any drops, they've helped out enough to get other drops for your remaining members.
Of course, these "salmon" could always agree to this or other compromises and then leave anyway, or just simply change their minds about staying. So ultimately it comes down to how much you trust them. If you can't, then don't put yourself in a position where their departure brings your raiding to a screeching halt. Protect your guild and make backup plans accordingly.
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
elprogramer Jul 21st 2008 8:43PM
A guild is about having fun. Whether that means progressing or having a drama fit is up to the individual guilds.
Arkkoran Jul 21st 2008 8:51PM
Absoutly not. They'll just leave again when something better comes up - like they did before. They'll just use you to get what they want, then jump ship when a better (in terms of progression) guild comes along.
Manatank Jul 22nd 2008 12:52PM
If your guild is truly casual, then why do you feel cheated when someone leaves to raid? A casual guild is about friendship and camaraderie, not raid progression. If your guild is overly concerned about raid progression, but you aren't very far progressed, then it doesn't sound like you are taking raiding very casually to me.
I think people commonly give the casual label to guilds that don't deserve it. Some guilds are truly casual warm friendly places. While other guilds have aspirations of being top raiders, but simply haven't the skill and/or the organization to do it. Not progressing doesn't make you casual. These are the guilds that feel the pain of losing people to more progressed guilds the most. Their leadership aspires to be a top raiding guild, but never considers that perhaps the reason people are leaving, and the guild isn't progressing is a lack of leadership on their part.
Instead of blaming the other guilds for being a better place for progression, perhaps they should look inward and determine if they have what it takes to lead a raid guild.
jaenicoll Jul 22nd 2008 10:00PM
Good point Manatank
arcady0 Jul 21st 2008 9:05PM
My guild has been thrice gutted by hardcore raiders that joined under a claim of wanting a casual, or sometimes casual with light raiding guild.
We did everything we could to accommodate them, we geared up, they geared up - we all went into instances and raids together... but invariably the progression of my casual members was not fast enough for the raiders, and they would leave, trying to take with them everyone they could.
The guild is still around, possibly now the oldest surviving guild on its server, but the conduct of these raiders has been repeatedly disappointing.
Everytime there's a lull, slowdown, or whatever - they jump ship. Rather than help their mates out, they take what they can and leave without so much as a thank you.
Should I welcome them back?
Not sure I can see a good reason to... I know I'll end up taking some back, the ones with the best personalities. And six or seven months from now, they'll do it to us again...
tomrigid Jul 21st 2008 9:11PM
My guild leader once put it this way:
"Know how many people you need (with margin for flakes) to raid the content you want to raid. Then divide people into three groups -- (1)skilled players committed to the guild, (2)skilled players likely to jump, and (3)unskilled-but-committed players. Each player from group 1 is worth one raid spot, each player from groups 2 and 3 is worth half a spot, and your total better equal however many slots you're filling (10? 25? 40?)."
I don't know if he was an insane genius, or just insane. He was really angry a lot of the time, though.
Badger Jul 22nd 2008 9:36AM
I don't know about "insane" or "genius," but it certainly sounds like good advice, to me.
Clevins Jul 21st 2008 9:43PM
Scott,
Another thing to consider is whether the guild has changed. What I mean is that some people might have left because the guild was stuck on, say, Kara and couldn't reliably field a second team. The player leaves because he or she wants to go further and the guild doesn't seem like it's going to move on.
Later the guild gets a bit more organized or has people who can be on more consistently or whatever... and they start progressing. IN that case the reason the player left has been removed, so if they come back they might simply stay.
Both the guild and returning player should be ready to deal with a bit of a blip at 80 though - people will level and gear at different rates, so there might be a period when people have to all catch up and gear a bit.
Sky_Paladin Jul 21st 2008 10:04PM
IMHO rather than fighting it, use this as part of your guild strategy.
Let's say your guild is called FluffyBunnies. Make a chat channel called FBchat. Have your long term and temporary players sign up to it. Whenever you (the casual guild) are trying to organise a raid, after you've filled your casual spots, advertise in FBchat.
Odds are good that there will be a raider who is interested in coming along, or just has an alt. So this way the casual guilds progression is not hurt and you maintain a good rapport with the players who leave your guild. This makes it very easy to welcome them back if they so choose, and also, much less painful if they decide to raid elsewhere.
You will need to provide the raid leader and distribute loot favoring FluffyBunnies in-guild raiders over FluffyBunny out-guild raiders. Make it clear that YOU have control and that FB guildies will get first pick of raid spots and loot.
The idea is deliberately vague. Shape it to your individual guilds needs.
Ryan Jul 21st 2008 10:28PM
I am a senior member of one of the oldest casual guilds on our server. The guild was formed shortly after WOW's launch. Over the years we've had our share of members leaving for raiding guilds, intense drama, and even a mass exodus or three. We've tastes Kara a few times but never at a level that would be classified as raiding. Through it all we remains true to our casual roots. Some past members have returned; others have not. As long as they left on good terms we're happy to bring them back into the fold... because they're still our friends. I think casual members forget that casual guilds are not about raiding... they're about friendships.
proudmoore Jul 21st 2008 10:31PM
Its hard being stuck in that phase of-
"not enough to reliably field (x) amount of teams every week, yet having people that have been dedicated for so long that long to be finished with (z) content."
People will chuck the shits and bail, and then you have those selfish pricks who had quest 65 greens when they joined and leave in "your" kara purples from the walkthroughs, to a more progressed guild cause they are just pricks.
Its only a game. Its only morals.
Iwanttobeasleep Jul 21st 2008 10:59PM
On a case by case basis, I say let them come back.
I'm one of the people who quit their casual guild for a hardcore one. I wanted to raid more, and my casual guild couldn't allow that, but my gear could. I quickly learned that what I wanted wasn't more raiding, but more time with my friends, since they're the ones who made raiding fun, and I couldn't get that in the hardcore guild. I'm very thankful I got let back into my old guild.
Of course, they could end up leaving, but you risk that with any new recruit, and your current members.
skreeran Jul 21st 2008 11:07PM
The way I see it, quitting a guild because they don't serve your needs shouldn't be a big deal. After all, you're the one paying $15 per month, and I think you should be able to move on to bigger and better things if you want, rather than being forced to stay in one place or another. Now, creating a ton of drama is something different entirely. If you're gonna leave a guild, I'd suggest doing what I do: be polite. Send a letter to the Guild master (and anyone else whom you feel should know why you are leaving), explaining why you are choosing to leave, and make sure to express your feelings that the guild just isn't serving your purpose anymore and it's time for you to move on. If they truly care about you (and not just what you contribute to the guild), they'll understand [Note: Actually leaving the guild early in the morning at say 2:00-3:00 AM helps too mitigate drama, as long as you've sent letters to whoever you think will be most affected by it, as "Yournamehere has left the guild" can stir up alot of crap]. And make sure to stay in contact, don't just move on entirely and make them feel that you have forgotten about them.
And for those guilds that have people that want to come back, remember, just because they left once, don't hold a grudge against them. They're just trying to do what they think is best. If they leave for some other guild, and it doesn't work out, be ready to accept them again with open arms, perhaps they'll understand who it is that really cares for them. And on the other hand, if they've been entirely successful and have just lost interest in raiding, take it as a compliment, after all, they're coming back to you, who they find funny, exciting, and fun enough to seek a return to.
And on a thrid hand, there are a few that just return to make themselves feel good and don't really care about the wellbeing of their guildmates. If you suspect your returning player's intentions, try and think back to how they executed their leaving. Was it a subtle affair with minimum feelings hurt? Or was it a big dramatic deal about they hate the guild and just left immediately?
The point of all of this is, take the other persons feelings into consideration, in addition to your own, and try to hurt as few people as possible. That's all I have to say. ;)
Chainfire Jul 22nd 2008 2:03AM
I am GM of a casual raiding guild. Once upon a time we let people return, and then they would leave again the second anything went wrong. As if it's not a kick in the face the FIRST time the people you trusted and thought were great for the guild up and leave the second time is probably worse, they claim things are better and they realize how badly they messed up. Bunch of crap. For my guild now you have a week to change your mind if you leave and otherwise we will just move on without them. It's a bit cold but you just become cold as "friends" screw you over.
Senchae Jul 22nd 2008 7:18AM
I am also the GM of a small, but friendly and most definately a casual raiding guild.
I have no complaints with people returning to the fold, as long as the exit has been on reasonable terms, no excessive drama was caused, and my guild bank has not taken a beating (this seems to happen often, so the guild suffered as I tightened up on what people can now withdraw)
Bringing people back has two results, at least that Ive noticed. The majority see it as a good thing, as its another player who has gear to progress our guild, and usually has experience of raids we have yet to see.
The second outcome is the people who have worked hard to "replace" that spot now feel less valued and almost threatened by the returning player/players. Its difficult to reassure the loyal players who are busting their guts for the guild that they are still 100% part of your plans when a T6 all singing all dancing player has returned. This has not been much of an issue in my guild, but I can see it happening.
My personal view is I need players, and because my guild is friendly and all about friendships, Its not hard for me to imagine people genuinely want to come back and be a part of it.
I must admit that PVE progression is definately not a driving force now, especially as the expansion is around the corner, and I am interested to see how long these massive raiding guilds carry on for. I for one know my guild will still be around well into the new expansion. Raids and loot are great, friendship is simply priceless.
Cynra Jul 22nd 2008 7:55AM
I'm of two minds on this issue. I've been in the guild where the exodus of other players left a void that prevented us from progressing in content. I've also been the person to leave the guild in favor of another that was able to help me obtain what I wanted out of the game. I think the answer lies in the individual who left.
If the player left on good terms and made it clear why he was choosing to leave, then it's probably fine. A player who went out of his way to let people know weeks in advance so that a replacement could be recruited, who openly stated why he was leaving, and maintained a friendly and helpful attitude while in the guild is an asset. His knowledge and his currently out-geared characters can help the guild progress beyond the point where it is now.
On the other hand, a person who came, snagged loot, and then left without warning or had planned to leave from the very beginning and didn't share that information is an asshat and should probably be turned down. This is usually an easy choice, because the people who do that sort of thing are usually drama-prone, self-absorbed, inconsiderate individuals who really wouldn't be welcome back into the fold anyways.
I don't think it's fair to severely penalize people who left the guild to pursue what appealed to them in the game -- assuming that it was on good terms and without any of the drama that sometimes goes along with a /gquit. However, as guild leader, you should probably field out how the rest of your guild feels. You might think it's an awesome idea, but you may have quite a few people who are furious and would feel slighted. And whatever you decide, make sure to relay that information to the vast majority of the guild before doing it; communication is a beautiful thing and few things put people more on edge than finding out that something important happened and they didn't know about it ahead of time. It often smacks of impropriety and can result in distrust.
Badger Jul 22nd 2008 9:42AM
"On the other hand, a person who came, snagged loot, and then left without warning or had planned to leave from the very beginning and didn't share that information is an asshat and should probably be turned down. This is usually an easy choice, because the people who do that sort of thing are usually drama-prone, self-absorbed, inconsiderate individuals who really wouldn't be welcome back into the fold anyways."
I would go further than just saying they don't belong in the Guild where they originally applied. Rather, it sounds to me like they don't belong in a Guild at all. Guilds are about the whole being greater than the sum of its parts; Asshats like the ones you describe above are all about themselves, and would only drag down anyone around them - literally, they are dead weight in a net, rather than the strong center of a circle that they believe themselves to be.
BCM Jul 23rd 2008 6:04PM
I totally do not understand the seriousness with which people approach the game of World of Warcraft and, to be honest, it unnerves me.... I am a member of a causual guild and have a level 51 Shaman as my main. I have been playing WoW for about 7 months and have progressed thus far by solo-ing at a very easy pace. Believe it or not, I have never run an instance. Not Wailing Caverns, not ragefire chasm - nothing. Now I am of a higher level, I sometimes get asked to join a party to go and run an appropriate level instance. I always refuse as I am too worried I will be rubbish and not know what the hell I'm supposed to be doing. The one time I did try and do Wailing Caverns (at level 26) with a party, I got booted out for running up to mobs and fighting them willy nilly. I thought this was what I was supposed to do, but obviously I was wrong. I was called a noob, flamed lots and then promptly kicked from the party. I had to make my way out of Wailing Caverns ashamed and alone. So I don't do instances anymore....
Anyway, I guess my point is that World of Warcraft is A GAME. A thing you play to entertain yourself for a bit. Isn't it? Who cares if someone grabs some good loot? That's the whole point of the f***ing game isn't it? They're not doing it just to spite someone else - or maybe they are, I just don't know, or understand these "hardcore" players...
Er, hmmmm, what am I going on about?
Anyway, just chill out everyone, IT'S NOT REAL.
:)
steveno Jul 22nd 2008 3:17PM
Get what you can outta these folks and let them go when they want to go. Its really a win-win situation here.
Fedwinmorr Jul 22nd 2008 9:25AM
Ryan said it well!
"casual members forget that casual guilds are not about raiding... they're about friendships."
I believe that is what it comes down to. Each person wanting to come back should be dealt with individually, and measured with two basic criteria.
1. Drama - did they put up an ugly stink leaving.
2. Friendship - are they a friend of people in the guild.
I have people that left, and left ugly. If they asked to come back I would tell them exactly where they could put thier request. I have others that were definately friends, and left on good terms and honestly with what their intentions were. If they asked to come back, I would be all for it, even if they left again 6 months later...
Fed.