Wrath Hunter Talent Analysis, Part I: Marksmanship
Hunter talents are out, and there's definitely a lot to say about them, both good and bad. While we have discussed some of the changes to the lower Survival tree, what we haven't touched on is all the new talents and the talent changes in other trees. If I was to sum it all up in one sentence, I'd say this: The 51 point talents look lackluster, but most of the rest is downright drool inducing.
Marksmanship's early tiers are now full of easily obtainable goodies for any Hunter, Survival's gained even more group and raid buff utility, and Beastmastery has even more amazing pet synergy.
There's a lot to cover, so we'll tackle it one tree at a time. First, we'll look at Marksmanship, which was once premiere Hunter tree, but has fallen a bit to Beastmastery in Burning Crusade. It's certainly seen some marked improvement for Wrath so far, and even if you don't plan to spec Marksmanship, you'll at least want to know about the first few tier talents, as you'll probably want to grab many of them anyway.
The Early Marksmanship Tree
I find the changes and additions to the early Marksmanship tree even more tantalizing than the later ones, although this may be in part because I am almost always specced Beastmastery. The first 2 tiers are now loaded with amazing basic utility talents new and old, and may be the most revolutionary changes to the talent trees as a whole, finally breaking PvE DPS Hunters free of the "must spec 20 points into Marks" mentality.
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Not only has Careful Aim been moved all the way down to the 2nd tier, it will now give Hunters 100% of their intellect as attack power at 3 talent points spent. Unless Hunter itemization completely de-emphasizes intellect (which is unlikely, considering Aspect of the Viper), it seems like this talent will almost be a must have for any Hunter, and give an amazing return for 3 points. 300 or more attack power for 3 points is very much a no-brainer.
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A new 1st-tier talent called Focused Aim will reduce interruptions to Aimed Shot and Steady Shot by 70% at 3 talent points. It's long been a complaint that a Hunter under fire loses so much DPS potential due to constant pushbacks. This talent should greatly improve a Hunter's ability to return fire even when under fire.
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Improved Concussive Shot no longer stuns, but now increases the daze component of the shot by up to 2 seconds for 2 training points. Zach points out that this may be due to the fact that many pets (such as bats and ravagers) are now getting triggered stuns as a baseline ability. While it is nice to see a more dependable talent that is not based on random chance, I do believe that 2 seconds is a bit short for 2 talent points. Personally, I think they can afford to give us an extra few seconds beyond that.
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Mortal Shots has swapped places with Efficiency (making it a 2nd tier talent), and is now a prerequisite for Aimed Shot instead of the other way around. This change is especially nice for PvE DPS Beastmasters, allowing them to be much more flexible with their talent points, and giving them the option to spend less than 20 points in the tree and eschew Aimed Shot if they choose.
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Improved Hunter's Mark is now only 3 points -- at the least, that means whichever Hunter bites the bullet and learns it for the good of the raid will have a few leftover points.
The Later Marksmanship Tree
The later Marksman talents are mostly pretty solid, although nothing personally screams amazing to me. There's quite a few procs, and I've never liked the idea of one's DPS being based on the random number generator. Beyond that, there's a bunch of Steady Shot modifiers, and Steady Shot has never traditionally been a central part of a deep Marksmanship Hunter's DPS -- at least not to the extent it is in Beastmastery. Still, the change to Auto Shot clipping may change that, so these talents may end up measuring up in Wrath after all. In short, late Marksmanship will probably need to see some extensive testing to make sure the talents measure up.
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Piercing Shots, which takes the place of Careful Aim in the 30-point tier, makes Steady and Aimed Shots ignore up to 6% of a target's armor for 3 talent points. Ignoring armor is always excellent for DPS, but my main complaint here is that it doesn't ignore Auto Shot, which makes it feel a bit lackluster. It should probably either include Auto Shot and Kill Shot or be folded into the Improved Steady Shot talent. There's also a complaint that it may not give a high enough armor penetration percentage for how deep in the tree it is, which may very well be valid.
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Improved Steady Shot is a 3 point talent at the 40-point tier. It gives up to a 15% chance for a Steady Shot to increase the damage of the Hunter's next Aimed Shot, Steady Shot, or Kill Shot by 15% and the mana cost by 40%. Certainly, the bonuses are nice, adding some good damage and addressing Hunter mana usage issues, although the whole "chance" thing comes up. Is 15% worth it?
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Wild Quiver is the other new 40 point talent. For 3 points, you can get up to a 10% chance on every Auto Shot to shoot an extra arrow for 60% damage. Again, the basic idea seems pretty cool, but the random nature of the skill holds it back. A 10% chance and 60% damage both seem awfully low, especially if the shot consumes an arrow. Early reports are that this skill only ups white damage by about 6% at most, which seems remarkably low for its position in the tree. I'd make the second shot shoot for 100% damage or up the percent chance by at least another 10%, if not both.
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The 45 point talent for Marksmanship is called Marked for Death, and costs up to 5 talent points. It gives up to 5% extra damage to marked targets, and adds 10% to the critical strike damage bonus of Aimed Shot, Steady Shot, and Kill Shot. The requirement of using Hunter's Mark seems a bit restrictive, especially on fast dying mobs. In the end, this skill seems mostly like a very slightly buffed version of a first tier Survival talent. This is probably another skill that needs some parsing to see if it's worth it. It's a good solid non-RNG-dependent damage raiser, which is probably what Marksmanship needs most, but I'd say it's still debatable as to whether it is worthy of being a 45 point talent.
Chimera Shot, the 51 point talent
Chimera Shot is the 51 point talent in the Marksmanship tree. It consumes your sting from the target and triggers a certain attack, making it somewhat like a Warlock's Conflagrate in concept. Serpent Sting will immediately do 40% of the damage the total Serpent Sting would have done. Viper Sting will burn an additional 30% of the mana a full Viper Sting would burn and return it to the Hunter. Scorpid Sting will apply a debuff which causes the next 3 attacks by the target to be reduced by up to 60% damage (each successive attack drops the damage reduction by 20%). It has a 10 second cooldown, and costs 540 mana.
This shot, while interesting in concept, looks to suffer from quite a few flaws in practice. While the 10 second cooldown means it can be used on every application of Serpent Sting and Viper Sting, the 540 mana cost could make it very restrictive to use due to Hunters' traditionally low mana pools and mana regeneration problems, which have reportedly only gotten worse in Wrath.
In addition, there's some debates over whether the procs themselves are worth 51 points, especially for Viper Sting. In the current Beta build, rank 5 Viper Sting drains 3092 mana over 8 seconds at the cost of 610 mana. With Improved Stings at maximum, that should be about 4019.2 mana. That means Chimera Shot will steal between and 927 and 1206 mana.
In the meantime, you will spend 1150 combined mana to cast both the sting and shot, which means you lose mana overall on a non-improved sting, and barely gain any at all on an improved sting. Of course, it may be the intent of the sting is more to allow for larger mana drain, wit the mana return meant to be only a slight offsetting of the cost.
In the end, its usefulness for Viper Sting will likely be determined by a few factors:
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Will it be easy enough for Hunters to time their shots just right to drain the maximum amount of mana? This is not a given, especially given the chaos of PvP where Viper Sting is most useful, the possibility of certain classes removing the Viper Sting early, and any need to take into account the flight time on the Chimera Shot itself.
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Will the approximately 3900-5200 mana drain by the attack (assuming a full application and a last second triggering of the Chimera Shot effect) be a significant amount of a level 80 PvPer's mana pool?
Both of those questions are still very much up in the air, and probably can't be answered without extensive PvP arena testing at level 80.
At the moment, I see Chimera shot as being in grave danger of being used primarily by one Hunter per a 25-man raid for Scorpid Shot on certain bosses, with the rest finding better uses for that talent point. It probably needs a mana cost drop, and maybe some overhauling to the triggered abilities.
Another possibility might be to make the ability a passive buff that adds the effects to each sting as a "bloom" triggered by the end of spell or by a dispel. That could singlehandedly make it worth being a 51 point talent and possibly let Hunters use something besides a poison-stacking scorpid in Arenas.
Some Hunters have also been suggesting that Marksmanship should just get Explosive Shot from the Survival Tree, while Chimera Shot and Improved Stings go over to Survival. This may actually make a bit of sense -- after all, Survival seems to be more of the utility tree as it is, while Marksmanship could use some more damage to put it on par with Beastmastery.
Closing Thoughts
Right now, Marksmanship's clear strength is the early tree. In Wrath, it is now an amazing treasure trove of solid damage increasing and utility talents that are arranged much more fluidly than in Burning Crusade and should allow Beastermasters and Survivalists much more leeway in constructing their specs.
As for the later tree, it has some solid concepts, but the extensive reliance on the RNG and the possibly too-low damage numbers on many talents make me think it's going to need a bit more tweaking. Hopefully the Beta testers can provide the testing and theorycrafting needed for Blizzard to make the right decisions.
Next, I'll tackle the Beastmastery tree, so please do stay tune to WoW Insider, as that and the Survival tree will be coming up soon in parts II and III.
Filed under: Hunter, Patches, Analysis / Opinion, Expansions, Talents, Wrath of the Lich King






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
V Jul 23rd 2008 1:18PM
According to Blizz MM should not be on par with BM when it comes to pure DPS since BM has lot mnore to lose if a pet dies.
This leaves MM a mixture of utility and DPS for raids.
It is built to do more DPS than survival and it certainly does that.
Add to that the chimera shot, which on raid bosses is pretty much amazing if you think about it and the tree starts to make more sense.
I really see no reason to switch stings over to SV, exploding shot is also a nice nod towards the ultimate survivalist, Rambo:-)
Orin Jul 23rd 2008 2:25PM
"According to Blizz MM should not be on par with BM when it comes to pure DPS since BM has lot mnore to lose if a pet dies."
I have never heard of Blizz ever making a comment like that. Link please?
Everyone has their own idea of what their spec is supposed to do, and while Burning Crusade shifted the roles for hunter trees quite a bit, we still do not know what Blizzard intends for each hunter spec. In fact, I am willing to bet you that even Blizz doesnt know what it intends for each hunter spec. As proof that Blizz doesnt know what its doing as far as hunter mechanics and design, I direct your attention to the recent hunter "gimmick" buffs intended to "help" them in arena, and Chimera Shot.
My own personal view is that MM is intended to be a "glass cannon", doing more DPS than any other tree but more susceptible to damage (hence the "glass") than BM hunters and Survival hunters.
By the way I tested Chimera Shot repeatedly last night and wow, it is completely underwhelming. It feels like a sub-60 trained ability, not something you give up points to obtain. Also I can confirm that mana is a major, major problem.
uncaringbear Jul 23rd 2008 7:13PM
"According to Blizz MM should not be on par with BM when it comes to pure DPS since BM has lot mnore to lose if a pet dies."
When did Blizz say that? If it's true, why does the same logic not apply to Demonology-specced warlocks?
moocow Jul 23rd 2008 9:19PM
I'd love to see where blizz said that too.
MM might be stronger than BM in very short crit burst output (< 10 sec fights), but anything sustained BM comes out way on top.
And especially after the pet buffs we've received during TBC, even as a raiding MM hunter I have no problems with keeping my pet alive on just about any boss fight in ssc/tk/mh/bt, BM hunters should have even less so.
My issue has been with the current 31 pt talents. BM gets this insanely powerful stacking+scaling group buff which works for *all* damage (spelldamage included). Surv gets a raid buff (expose weakness) which gets stronger the higher your AGI is, but is not stackable.
MM gets... TSA. which doesn't stack. and doesn't scale. and doesn't increase in any way. And when it comes to utility.. it is pretty lacking in group/raid utility, and to add to the insult, even Silencing Shot (the "glorious" 41 pt talent) doesn't work on raid bosses nor most caster trash in bt/sunwell. yay?
Mullinator Jul 23rd 2008 1:27PM
If Hunter itemization involves far more intellect than it currently does then I can see many of these problems not being so bad.
It would explain the high mana cost of Chimera shot, and would make careful aim even better. It could be they expect to remove some of the +AP on a lot of the gear and focus more on +int. It would even make more sense to do this considering Blizzards philosopy on unifying the gear of many classes. Make hunters focus more on +int and they can share more with Shamans.
Some of the other problems like wildquiver though are another story.
MM Jul 24th 2008 12:17PM
I think the gear does have more intellect on it, and this is proper hunter gear :D
If you check on the wotlkwiki, in utgarde keep, there is more intellect on the lvl 70 blue gear (hands i looked at) than on the hands from Kil'Jaeden.
Maybe that is a sign for more intellect, seeing as intellect will be a lot more useful for hunters who put 3/3 into careful aim for the intellect points to add to your AP as well :D
Aaron Jul 23rd 2008 6:10PM
This post represents wowinsider at its best, and is the best column about hunters I've read in ages. I've already done quite a bit of private analysis but reading your well-formed opinions are great fun and very enlightening, you made some points that hadn't occured to me.
A suggestion if I might: do a part IV which analyzes the trees for different purposes (PvP/PvE/leveling) and maybe even tosses out a build or two! Perhaps you could even take suggestions from the community at the end of part III?
Two thumbs up, great post!
spectre Jul 23rd 2008 2:03PM
if only for a flavor standpoint, i have to agree that explosive shot makes more sense as a marksman talent than a survival. again, i haven't done much endgame so i really can't comment on dps capabilities, it just seems more appropriate that a marksman would have to big flashy shot than a survivalist. that's just me though, feel free to disagree =)
faithplusone Jul 23rd 2008 2:12PM
"Will the approximately 3900-5200 mana drain by the attack (assuming a full application and a last second triggering of the Chimera Shot effect) be a significant amount of a level 80 PvPer's mana pool?"
Uh...maby this is the non hunter in me talking but, Are You Crazy? Most casters have less than 12k mana soooo....im thinkin even if the mana pool increases drastically this will still be OP. Shit, I hope it sucks so my boomkin doesnt become an Oomkin.
Malinche Jul 23rd 2008 3:05PM
Yeah blizz has no idea what they are doing as far as hunter mechanics. Some of the recent additions in patches have been nice ie a pseudo mortal strike to MM tree, the addition of focus aim in WoTLKand the recent addition of steady shot not interrupting auto shot. But it still does not cover the fact that blizz is only trying to hot fix issues with hunters. If a developer would roll a hunter and play it then and only then would we see some realistic hunter mechanics.
Until that day, roll BM and stick with it as it is possibly the only tree that makes sense and is manageable.
D Jul 23rd 2008 2:38PM
I'd call it Chimera Stings and have it be a passive ability that allows the hunter to have up to 1 of each sting active on the same target along with more resists to cleansing--then swap it with Explosive Shot because honestly ES is so much better off in a deep MM build.
Kyudo Jul 23rd 2008 4:48PM
How about just replace Chimera Shot with something /really/ passive...
Example: Viper Sting will drain 30% on its final tick, unless it is cleansed. Or it does 30% mana drain /on/ cleanse. Something along those lines.
Then you don't have to deal with timing a silly follow-up shot just to make your Stings more worthwhile, and this new talent will no longer be severely situational. :P
Kyudo Jul 23rd 2008 2:53PM
Ugh, more instant-cast abilities to bind around WASD for kiting...
Guess Viper Sting is now a macro:
/castsequence reset=15 Viper String, Chimera Shot
Unless you can't cast Chimera Shot without a Sting on the target, then it's:
/cast Viper Sting
/cast Chimera Shot
Wish I had a beta key to test and configure my new keybindings/macros. :P
STereo Jul 23rd 2008 3:38PM
The new pet trees are very cool but a lot of other stuff for hunters is disappointing. After 4 straight seasons having the bottom of arena all to ourselves in every bracket, you'd think they'd be bending over backwards to make hunters good again in WOTLK. For a class that cannot tank or heal to be also unable to arena seems grossly unfair. They should err on the side of OP with hunters after the pure frustration that has been TBC.
Shenzhe Jul 23rd 2008 5:30PM
Maybe it's the survival hunter in me, but I feel that Explosive shot fits in pretty well with the idea of utility. I'm not sure that it's necessary for anyone to have another AoE spell for hunters, (though Explosive trap and volley are somewhat lacking) because we're generally not a multi target sort of class. Allowing us a semi-spamable AoE adds to our utility and therefor makes sense in survival.
I think the argument for putting it in marksman is because it is better than chimera Shot. Recently, in my experience, the PvP tree for hunters is MM with a smattering of other stuff (silencing shot is nice to bring to arenas.) Giving us the ability to speed up a stings effect on someone seems right in line with arena. I think it could, and should, be a better talent that will make people want to spec MM for more than just arenas, but the only 51 point talent people seem to care about is Explosive shot anyways so maybe they need to rethink what hunters care about in high end talenting.
Loronar Jul 23rd 2008 9:41PM
You overlooked the conditional statement in Wild Quiver. The ability will only proc "when doing damage with your auto shot". If a hunter who chooses this over Improved Steady Shot is not hit capped for his/her level, it is unlikely that the ability will be useful. Missed auto shots would mean there will be no chance for the extra shot, even if it only deals 60% damage. Until one is hit capped at level 80, it's better to choose Steady Shot because the proc occurs for any Steady Shot done, regardless of the outcome.
V Jul 24th 2008 2:52AM
In Blizzcon hunter panels the devs commented that:
"At Blizzcon Blizzard said that Beastmaster SHOULD do the most damage of the hunter specs because the pet is the most at risk."
Just google that and you will see different forum posts quoting it. Not sure if it can be found anywhere on "bluetext" since it was a verbal comment.
It kinda makes sense: you want best dps you have to be sort of a glass cannon and being a BM in raids and keeping the pet alive is definitely harder than keeping your character alive.
HdV Jul 24th 2008 6:46AM
I sincerely hope either you or the panel was not serious about this, because I'm afraid it does not make sense at all. The notion that a risk you describe must lead to a near permanent, improved reward is irrational.
First of all, BM pets are not the most at risk. They are undeniably stronger than MM and SV pets, enjoying more hit points, more armor, temporary power boosts that put them even more ahead, and now also extra abilities. Logic and mathematics prove that it is the MM and SV pets that are most easily killed. While a lesser amount of dps depends on their pets, MM and SV most definately lose a noticable portion of dps when their pet goes down. This in no way validates any decision that allows BM hunters to output more dps than MM hunters.
Secondly, the idea that having to rely on your pet more than other builds being an excuse for allowing greater combined dps output is equally flawed. Only by willingly ignoring the tactical advantage of outnumbering your enemy can you accept that idea. For example, in PvP, while it is quite viable to practically ignore MM and SV pets in combat, doing so with BM pets is effectively hoisting the white flag. When up against a BM hunter, you have 2 worthy targets, not 1. Anyone who has played RTS games either understands this advantage, or recognizes it from experience. The risk of dividing power over 2 units already has its reward in forcing the enemy to divide their attention over multiple targets. To further reward it by increasing dps is the very definition of imbalance.
So, at the end, logic proves beyond doubt that the dps output of BM hunters should never be greater than the dps output of MM hunters under equal conditions (gear, level, skill, consumables, party and zone bonusses).
V Jul 24th 2008 7:23AM
Check out this thread on TKAsomething, page 11:
http://forums.tkasomething.com/showthread.php?t=12926&page=11
Apparently it was a panel that focused on DPS balancing between classes. BM stands to lose the most if pet dies, therefore it is more at risk (since usually melee is more vulnerable to damage on boss encounters.) If a MM/SV loses pet they do not lose that big percentage of their total damage.
HdV Jul 24th 2008 8:48AM
I can only find some claims that it was mentioned at the panel, but I can't seem to find any verified references.
At any rate, just because Blizzard makes a decision doesn't mean that it is a correct decision. If the developers do something irrational, then it is still a flawed design.
While it is true that BM hunters lose more when their pet goes down, it is equally true that their pets are far harder to take down in the first place. If you add extra dps on top of this advantage, you create a situation where a) non BM hunters are at a fixed disadvantage while BM pets are active, and b) BM pets will be active longer as they can take much more punishment. In other words, BM outputs more damage and is also guaranteed to keep higher dps for a longer period, as the other hunters lose their pets earlier in the fight. That's literally giving 2 bonuses to one build.
The major flaw in this design, is that the hunter is a dps class (Blizzard's own words), so if one build is necessarily superior to another under equal circumstances, the weaker build has no right to exist in the first place. This approach turns the MM tree into mere [i]filler[/i].