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by Alex Ziebart 
Aug 3rd 2008 at 6:15PM
I guess that aspect of things is to be expected, it's an entry level dungeon that needs to be balanced for people in full green gear. Still, I wish it was a little more challenging. Even in level 70 blues you can completely brute force your way through the dungeon, slamming your face on your keyboard willy nilly while the bad guys fall over. I don't really want the trash mobs to be terribly difficult, but even in pulls of four and five giant hulking vrykul there's not much reason to use all of that brand new CC some classes are getting.
The bosses are all quite easy, too. However, each of them has a gimmick that will trip up players in greens and players in Sunwell epics all the same, and might cause you to wipe your first time seeing them. That will only really work once, though, if it even actually manages to kill you. They're just small, easily handled things that make you go, "Oooh, duh!" after you die.
The last boss, Ingvar the Plunderer, is the most notable example of this. Our first time pulling him we all laughed as our tank got nailed for 21,000 damage. The second time pulling him, we knew exactly how to avoid it and the boss was a complete joke. The boss's hits besides that special ability are so weak that it actually has a stacking debuff mechanic so you can't make the encounter last forever by kiting him around the dungeon. Still, that hasn't stopped people from doing it. Holy Paladins have solo'd him, and I actually took the final 65% of Ingvar's health off solo after everyone else died in a PUG once upon a time.
I wouldn't say Utgarde is a bad dungeon, but they took that "entry level dungeon" bit a little too far. I still enjoy the zone simply because of visuals and story, but there's really no challenge to it. As I said, you might wipe to the bosses once, but after that you never really should ever again. If you know how to play your class or have decent gear (both is overkill) then this dungeon is trivial.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Instances, Expansions, Wrath of the Lich King
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 2)
mufee Aug 3rd 2008 8:29PM
For those that have been in it in a scale of complexity how would you rate it?
Like between the over linearity of BC instances like Blood Furnace vs the more complex old dungeons like BRD.
Where would these and the other WRATH dungeons fall and how would you describe them?
Rin404 Aug 3rd 2008 9:16PM
Oh, because Hellfire Ramparts is so hard and everything?
Carbon Aug 4th 2008 1:20PM
I've think I've wiped more on Ramparts trash than Tempest Keep-The Eye trash
Rolling through those dungeons with Tier 3 was a funny joke.
Getting rolled in that dungeon (with half hellfire-greens and half leveling old world loot) trying to pug it is a sick, sick joke. The designer responsible for that clearly is a sadist if he designed that dungeon with "PUGs" in mind.
I want to run a low level instance. I don't want to have to carry the group through. I don't want to hold their hands. I don't want to spend X hours looking for a *good* tank/healer/dps because I only have 4 friends available. Hell, it would be nice to have one dungeon that even Donald can do.
Its not a horrible idea to have a "training wheels" dungeon, level 70 loot at 80 won't matter that much, right? You even can have it even be a trainer for heroics, just don't let it be a loot pinata of very nice level 80 gear/tokens/badge etc.
HolyLiaison Aug 4th 2008 1:22AM
"I've run Utgarde Keep a few times on the Wrath BETA"
Wrath BETA
Wrath BETA
I don't get why people even comment on stuff like this till it's final. Hell they don't even have half the models in game yet, and you expect an instance to be balanced already?
Tenchan Aug 4th 2008 2:57AM
Did Ingvar get looked over recently? Because last time -I- was there, he did repeated unavoidable AOE shadow damage to the party, culminating in the 2 to 3k hits on his slam, making the fight a close call for the casters even with fair shadow resistance up.
Larry-Steve Aug 4th 2008 5:41AM
Being that this is the first 5-man added since MGT (correct me if I'm wrong), I would have expected it to be somewhere before MGT, but a little more difficult than the other 5-mans. The 'casual player' nonsense really doesn't need to make dungeons any less challenging. "Casual" doesn't mean "challengeless".
The most interesting part about running dungeons in WoW is that the majority of them are not directly tank and spank.
However, as some of mentioned, it IS beta. Just make sure if you feel the same way Mr. Ziebart does, to let Blizz know with the beta feedback system.
If you're arguing that the first dungeon should be easy, look at the other dungeons that were easy and just how quickly you were bored out of your mind with them.
james.duguid Aug 4th 2008 9:41AM
From what I have read on the beta forums so far the dungeons remain unchallenging for their respective levels. I am also disappointed with the lack of gear upgrades from the dungeons and quests. In TBC I was replacing MC/BWL gear at 61/62. Everything I have read on the beta forums has T5 level stuff not being replaced until the mid 70s and T6/SP gear lasting until 77 (and maybe beyond since that is the cap).
True or not there is a feedback thread on one of the 77 dungeons where a Pally solo'd the first 2 bosses (and trash) and then a lock joined him and they cleared the rest of the instance.
I am glad that the dungeons aren't requiring tank/healer/3CC like so many TBC 5-mans felt when you were learning them. However neutering the content so any random person can show up and beat it without skill defeats the purpose of 5-mans, they should require some ability to play your class correctly.
Juliah Aug 4th 2008 10:39AM
I think it's good for the first one to be quick and easy. It gives players a psychological sense of success, and that they're up to the challenge. Remember, other folks may not be as skilled as you are at playing the game, and Blizzard may want to skew the curve toward them at the beginning of Northrend.
Bunny Shield Aug 4th 2008 10:44AM
I need to post this; I just can't shut up regarding dungeon issues :)
As many of you have posted, the principle taken by Blizzard from BC and on is this.
"Make the instance short and runnable under less time than the original."
This resulted in less trash mobs, less bosses, and less geographical complexity. This also resulted in some whines from the user community, who loved the adventurous aspects of the original dungeon design (Blackrock depths yeah!; one of my favorite). I know many of you disdained this type of dungeon which I totally understand and I guess the reason why Blizzard intentionally avoided these dungeons. I just want to point out that there are some people like me who actually liked hiking here and there, getting lost, and feel the overwhelming vastness of the area. It really gets me immersed to the game.
Solution for Blizzard: Keep the basic principle. Just toss me 2 or 3 complex/maze-like dungeons I can explore in. Items don't have to scale with complexity. I'm not interested in the drops but rather would like to enjoy adventure.
Jeff Aug 4th 2008 10:44AM
Obviously these dungeons aren't tuned to epic geared level 70's. They are not even tuned to for level 70 end game quest gear....the boat to Northrend boards at level 68 not 70 and 3 months after the expansion this dungeon will be filled with fresh level 68's with level 63-68 unenchanted green and blue quest gear. This dungeon is tuned to the appropriate level for them.
Remember that for all the people who joined WoW after TBC they were in Ramps at level 58 with level 53-58 green/blue gear. That's why Ramps was so easy for everyone at 60 regardless of their gear and it will be the same with this dungeon.
Substandard Aug 7th 2008 8:04PM
The first time I did ramps we had a bear tank who had never tanked before, 2 locks with crap gear, a ret pally healing and a rogue.
Everyone died at least once (i think), but we did that with no wipes. I don't know how hard you expect it to be.
Honestly if I can't walk through the first dungeon in mostly tier 5 gear with thousands of gold in enchants and gems, I'll certainly think they've made it way too hard.