Officers' Quarters: My pre-Wrath rant

Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.
Bleak is the word I would use to describe the current situation for raiding guilds. For many guilds, activity and recruitment are at all-time lows. It's becoming harder and harder to cobble together enough people to run anything these days. Must we simply endure? Is there no hope for us until Wrath launches? Will we officers respond to this crisis with moral fortitude -- or weakness? Will I actually use boldface to call out our officer community on their behavior? Find out after the break! But first, the author of this week's e-mail relates his own guild's experiences.
Hi Scott,
My name is Dmitry. [My guild is] a casual raiding guild made up mostly of people over 20, who either go to school, or work, or both, many of whom have kids. This is all taken into account and we have a very strong RL-before-WoW stance.
Unfortunately the past month or two has been really hard for us. Our MT was gone for 3 weeks because of a new job, lots of people went on vacation because of the summer, others stopped playing as much to spend more time with their kids, etc. After having guild firsts on Mag, Hydross, and Lurker in 3 weeks in June our guild has started to go backwards, having trouble taking down Gruul some nights.
Because of this many people have left for other hardcore guilds but left alts in our guild. We tried getting new recruits, but as soon as they got their T4 shoulders and pants for minimal or 0 DKP (since no one else needed them) they gquit for other guild which had better progression.
Slowly but surely we are becoming a friendly alt guild that has trouble getting more than 1 Kara group going.
How do we go about recruiting people that aren't fresh 70s, that will understand that come late August we'll be up and running and should be able to clear SSC and TK within a month as long as people sign up for raids and actually show up?
Thanks,
Dmitry
I have good news and bad news for you, Dmitry. The bad news is that you're going to have a tough time recruiting unless you can actually make some raids happen. Players with raiding experience won't join a guild that isn't raiding, unless they've given up on raiding for the time being -- and if so they won't be any help to you.
The good news (for you at least) is that even hardcore raiding guilds are having trouble filling their raids in some cases. They are able to recruit based on their progress, but many of their best and brightest have decided farming gear from zones they've seen a hundred times isn't enough to keep them playing until the expansion. Their members who were raiding Black Temple when it first opened, who have seen the Sunwell and decided they've seen enough of it, are just going inactive to PvP or level alts, or quitting the game altogether for a few months.
So for hardcore guilds, turnover can be very high right now. That means those zones they've had on farm may not be on farm anymore. The frustration of that reality can cause even more of their best members to hang up the sword or the wand for a while.
Some of those players who left your casual raiding guild may quickly find themselves begging you to let them return when they encounter the same problems they had before in a much less friendly environment than the one they left behind. So you'll have to decide whether or not you want to take them back.
However -- is this poaching and reverse poaching, this guild cannibalism, really getting anybody anywhere these days? It seems to me that all it's doing is creating a lot of hard feelings and not a lot of successful raiding environments.
So what I propose, to all the officers out there running raiding guilds, however serious or casual you happen to be, is this: Stop stealing players from each other and work together.
Times are tough for all of us. Let's make it easier on each other, rather than harder. Think about it: Loot is virtually meaningless right now. The people who are actively raiding at this point in Warcraft's life cycle are doing it first and foremost because they like raiding. They have fun raiding and want to keep doing it, regardless of any rewards. So instead of recruiting from another guild's roster, why not work together with that guild?
Stop making enemies and start forming alliances. Let's all get back to the basics of raiding, which is bringing players together to see content and enjoy it. That is my advice for Dmitry and for any other guilds out there faced with a slowdown or a complete stoppage in their raiding schedules.
The enemies that your guild makes now will in all likelihood continue to be your enemies in the future. But the friends that your guild makes now will probably be your friends in the future, and that may prove valuable down the road. So what is better for your members? What is better for the community?
I'm not ranting about this because I'm bitter -- just the opposite. I'm writing this because it's working for my guild, and I want to see it work for yours, too.
If you are not an officer in your guild, think about this before you decide to gquit. If you like your guild but it's going nowhere, before you give up on it, push your officers to start reaching out to other guilds on your server. Odds are that guild you're sizing up to join is also struggling in some way. You may end up in the same position you've tried to escape, except you've burned some bridges in the process.
Officers, before you accept a whole slew of applicants from another guild, think about the long term. Do you want to keep these players, with all their needs and issues, throughout the expansion? Or are you just using them to plug some holes in the dam before your serious raiders return?
Wouldn't it be better to partner up with that guild instead? You'll have access to all those players and more, but you won't have to deal with the baggage that would come from assimilating them into your membership (or, even worse, potentially telling them down the line that there's no place for them in your Wrath raids).
How a community responds to hardship defines that community. Will we get all Lord of the Flies on each other? Or will we lift each other out of the raiding gutter we're in and move forward together? As officers, we are the leaders of this online community, so no matter what the raiding community does, it reflects on us first and foremost. Keep that in mind as the agonizing wait for Wrath drags on!
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
xarnx Aug 4th 2008 11:11AM
Our guild (Dirty Double Dozen on Hellscream) was able to reverse all the issues we'd been having with people skating on raids with instituting a new loot policy. The basic rules were that raiders get first chance on loot over non-raiders. To get raider rank, you have to attend a certain percentage of raids over the last month, and you get credit for being there even if you don't get into the raid group.
Last week we got first kills on Kaz'rogal and Anatheron after a month or two of trying to scrape together two raids per week.
theta Aug 4th 2008 11:16AM
Our guild has been having exactly this problem as well, although we seem to be finally coming out of a long dark patch now that many folks seem to be back from vacation, etc...
I don't think other guilds are so much poaching though as that would suggest that they're out there actively soliciting our members. It seems to be the other way around where our members are actively looking for more progressed guilds. There's really only so much you can do though. If someone wants to leave, it's their $15. We let people know that if they want to leave, they're not getting an invite back if it doesn't work out. That seems to ensure that anyone who wants to leave is really serious about it and not just testing the waters.
rick gregory Aug 4th 2008 2:02PM
And I think players are moving to more progressed guilds because they think that they won't see the next tier of raids with their current guild before Wrath.
Think about it... if you're early to mid SSC or on Gruul/Mag... you might well not see BT before Wrath ships. And for all of the "Oh noes, we can't raid now that people are leaving" from the raiders now... when Wrath ships all of those people will level up to 80 so that they can run raids in Wrath. A few people might go back to BT to see it months post-Wrath... but it will be like Naxx - one of those places that most people who didn't see it at 70 will never see.
So If you WANT to see it and your current guild isn't likely to before Wrath... you leave.
Bumwaller Aug 4th 2008 11:29AM
QFT - I find my guild in the exact same situation that is described here. I want to keep my guild small and tight knit but I keep losing people to the mega-guilds.
Samfisher Aug 4th 2008 11:34AM
Dmitriy is the name of my pet Ravager. Popov for my bear. And yes, raiding guilds are having the most problems now with recruitment and maintaining a full 25-man group =(
heath Aug 4th 2008 11:44AM
i also suggest making friends with another guild or two...share 25man runs.
one of 3 things will happen.
1) some of their players will come to you (yeah for you)
2) some of your players will go to them (you're dieing anyway)
3) you merge guilds.
3 sounds like your best option, but if you do nothing, you'll fade away.
tayluca Aug 4th 2008 11:44AM
One bit of advice I have for you: Don't underestimate the "fresh 70s".
If you're average guild progression is beginner SSC, these people can be a valuable asset to your progression. If you find that you have 3 mages, but really need 5 (randomly picked a dps class, just go with me here), a fresh 70 can quickly be geared up enough to bring a moderate amount of dps to a beginner SSC raid in a few week's time. Balance your Kara groups so that you have a very strong member that needs no gear from Kara grouped with the lesser geared member who needs all their gear from Kara. Increases overall raid dps and will quickly gear the lesser geared person. Even if the gear the person needs doesn't drop, in a few weeks time, badges can be saved up to purchase some very nice upgrades.
It all depends on a few things: [1] over-geared members willing to run lower level raids for the greater good of the guild. [2] the lesser geared person's only barrier to running higher level content being their gear. (all the gear in the world won't make a difference if the "fresh 70" isn't actually willing to work for it and doesn't know the basics of their class)
Stick with it. This is a really bad time for raiding guilds, especially casual raiding guilds. Add to that, many of us have the added recruiting difficulty of being on low pop servers and it can be very tricky getting raids together under those circumstances.
Another Tip: Keep scheduling raids; Kara, ZA, anything to keep those that are actually showing up busy and interested in raiding. We made the mistake of saying "ok, attendance is sucking, let's wait a few weeks before scheduling any raids when more people are online". What we found out was that people would log on, see we're not raiding, and some would lose hope and log right out again. Keep the raids on the calendar and let your guild know that they may not happen but the more people sign up, the more chance you have of going eventually. Encourage those you see actually logging on every day and try to keep morale high. It's not easy to do right now but when your guild sees you actively working to make things happen, it lifts their spirits and makes them that much more willing to stick through the rough patches.
Bel Aug 4th 2008 11:57AM
The idea of making an alliance with another guild is spot on.
The social raiding guild I am in is having the same summer holiday blues too. But we have found friends in other, serious raiding guilds, and recently started filling slots with them. Their guild takes priority still, of course, but so far it seems to be working quite well. We have met some great new people, and they help us with hints and tips on the new boss fights that they have on farm. There is absolutely no poaching, everybody keeps their members, and so far it has worked quite well.
We keep raiding, and the people in the pro guilds get to take their alts through the dungeons that their guild has long left behind for Sunwell. They have even invited some of us to their raids too.
brent Aug 4th 2008 11:58AM
Same here, my guild fell victim to the Curse of the Sunwell. It's too hard to do with people who aren't giving 100% unlike BT, and other 25 man content before you can carry a few people just about every fight.
It's this apathy coupled with the impending xpac that is making sunwell a pipedream.
alex.rushing Aug 4th 2008 12:22PM
I understand that other guilds are having this problem, but I just don't see it in my guild. (Free At Last (A), Eldre'Thalas).
How did we sidestep these obstacles? Because we created a guild with the specific intent that we would be clearing the content we had not seen in other guilds before the expansion arrives. When we recruit, we make it clear that we are looking for people who want the same thing as us.
Have we lost a few people? Yes. Have we gained more than we've lost? Most definitely. We've been together a little over 2 months and we are firmly into the realms of T6.
In my experience, the bulk of problems that guilds experience stem from either uninspired leadership or unmotivated members (or both). Have a serious talk with the people in your guild and see what their expectations are. Look at what you are doing and what can be done to improve it. Baby steps are perfectly acceptable (that was one thing my current guild had trouble with at first.)
Most importantly: have fun. If you are having fun, and your raid is having fun, then you'll be amazed at what you will be able to do.
bill Aug 4th 2008 12:31PM
Right now is just a sucky time for progression with the summer and wrath looming ahead. Just look at the number of top guilds that have disbanded or aren't all that hot in raiding right now.
My guild is on MH/BT and they are having issues as described above. So fresh 70s dont really help us and you can only run people through TK/SSC so many times before geared folk want to work on their alts or just not raid.
Gearing people up isn't the problem. It is training them in "how" to raid. They see power "leeroy" runs in everything up to TK/SSC and when wipe-night (aka progression aka MH/BT) comes up they get upset at repair bills, consumable bills, etc. A lot of the newcomers we get aren't used to progression night so spending 4 hours on one boss and NOT killing him is unthinkable.
Rastas Aug 4th 2008 12:42PM
I'm an officer in a medium-sized casual raiding guild that consist mainly of friends or friend's friends. We've been on the loosing side of this guildswitch-mania for about two-three weeks now. It has really burnt out all chances we ever had of getting a guild 25-man raid going (one of the leavers even mentioned in his recruitment post to another guild that we never stood a chance, which insulted us quite a bit).
We've gotten back to our feet somehow, despite everything that has happened. We are starting anew, now abandoning the idea of ourselves as raiders and focusing on being friends and helping eachother. All the loot-whores we thought as friends can go and do whatever they please.
What I'm trying to say by telling you this: Don't give up, and think of why you started your guild in the first place: if you started it thinking you'll be the number 1 guild on your server, you probably are screwed, but if you started like we did, to have good company and some casual raiding/instancing fun, just try to get back to your roots. Live your own dreams, not someone else's. Easy epax is any fun only until you find out it's no use (and that no use -phase will be here in only few short months anyway).
Bentwhisker Aug 4th 2008 1:28PM
I understand your frustration, but please don't bash people who like to raid as "loot whores" whose efforts are in vain because their gear will be replaced in WotLK.
That's not why I raid - I raid to see content, and I want to do it before the xpac. Just because your guild is struggling to do that doesn't mean that all other successful raiding guilds are all a bunch of arseholes.
Haderic Aug 4th 2008 4:09PM
I sympathize with the people leaving "non-progressing" guilds. They are not acting like loot whores, they just cant stand to beat their heads against the same content with no progression. If people are leaving your guild because your not progressing, take a step back and figure out why your not moving. Is it your leadership, your raider core? determine the problem and fix it, don't bash those that made the decision to move on, it only makes you the worse person.
Rastas Aug 8th 2008 4:03AM
You see, these people were perfectly happy with what we were doing before. One of the people leaving was actually our raid leader. I am frustrated, yes. But what else is that? I feel justified to feel the way I do. Sorry, if you feel guilted by my comment.
You see, the problem was never us officers, never the gm. I took part in 90% of the raids, as did most of our core raiding group. All of these people who left belonged to the core group. The problem was, that we weren't big enough name... that we didn't attract people who wanted fast progress. Our server is old, so there's lots of those "good old guilds" with steady progression and lots of applicants... who never want a smaller, but eager guild.
(That first post, and this too... they're MY pre-Wrath rant. Don't spoil it for me :p)
And by the way... We only became a non-progressing guild AFTER they left... Before that we'd been progressing (slowly but) steadily.
Doz Aug 4th 2008 12:51PM
Something we have started trying to do is just make our guild more fun. Gear has taken a backseat with the impending expansion, people in our guild want to just take it easy and prepare for it. We still try a progression raid a couple nights a week but we've also added an 'old world' raid into the mix. Going back to naxx or mc has been a lot of fun for people who haven't seen it in a while, or ever sometimes. You get the advantage that the bosses are fairly easy to kill, but you can still work on your raiding skills since the strategy is still required. It makes for very good practice, and also is very forgiving of your raid size. Plus if you are like me you can get all your t1-3 leftover pieces that you never could before and finish up the set (curse you Ony for never having a judgement helm....)
Lightara Aug 4th 2008 2:30PM
I disagree that this time of yr is a bad place for progression. In the past few weeks, we have killed nearly all the bosses in BT (Illidan is the only one left) Our recruitment is holding steady and our progression hasnt stopped.
Maybe this is only on certain realms
http://woc-hf.guildlaunch.com/
brent Aug 4th 2008 3:54PM
Wait till sunwell it makes BT look like kara. Then you'll see who really wants to be there and who you have been carrying the whole time. Especially your healers.
Gimmlette Aug 4th 2008 1:13PM
On Llane, the number of guilds, both horde and alliance, posting recruiting messages has jumped exponentially as summer passes and Wrath looms. They aren't just posting one message either. As the first gets moved to page 2, they post another, worded just a bit differently, in the hopes of filling the spots they need to progress.
At the same time, the number of people saying, "Goodbye" is increasing. I'm told this is similar to what happened right before BC came out. I can't attest to that since I started playing a scant 3 months before BC was released. I do know of several people who have said, "I'm tired and I want to do something else". I've had several guild members go to "Age of Conan" because they want something else for a change.
I don't have the same problems as the guilds running SSC/TK/BT/Sunwell content. Being a novelty, I'm always getting asked when our next old world raid is and I can pretty much fill the slots I need even if it's with friends of guild members. But I did have worries about last weekend's Onyxia run. Several of my guild members were on vacation. I thought of canceling the run but didn't and I'm glad. We had a guild first of a Onyxia one-shot, although we joked that we missed that first wipe.
I have a schedule posted for the next 6 weeks. I'm always reminding people of our goals and what we have decided, as a guild, to accomplish. People either buy into what you want to do or they don't. Asking the guild, as a whole, "What do you want to accomplish the next month or before Wrath?" helped me decide where we will go and what we will attempt to do. That's helped a lot toward keeping those raid slots full.
Plus, I scheduled fun nights. We held a guild snowball/steam tonk/robot night in the throne room in Ironforge. We held a Guild Dueling Night where the losers had to jump off the bridge in Stormwind. It's not all raid, raid, raid. It's silly stuff that breaks the push and I think people need that as well as the next raiding goal for the guild.
I think 1) you need to talk to your officer corps and make sure they are behind progression. If they are feeling burned out, they aren't going to want to come day after day and not get anywhere. 2) Talk to guild members, particularly the ones who are consistently online and ready to go. What would they like to accomplish? Maybe the majority would like a reduced schedule to have time to sit on the deck with friends on a weekend and roast hot dogs. 3) Seek out an alliance with another guild in the same spot. You can easily find out who needs help by going to your server forum and reading recruiting posts. 4) Schedule raids and events even if you don't think you'll have the people. 5) Encourage people to have fun, even if it means they aren't on when you need them. I don't care if "X" is on every raid if she resents the pressure and feels she can't go see "Batman" with her friends because she has to raid. 6) Don't even think about recruiting people from other guilds.
I think an understanding this is a slow time is necessary too. Relax, breathe and try to enjoy what you've accomplished so far. A baby step forward is a step forward even if that's getting alts Kara geared.
sadartaud Aug 4th 2008 1:10PM
I think Tayluca has a good point. One thing I've seen on my server recently is a lot of players who've never raided before getting invited to raiding guilds to fill newly empty slots. Often these virgin raiders are experienced pve-ers who've been slogging through the Heroics all summer. Having mastered the Heroics, they tend to be smart, competent, and eager to learn - especially if it means gaining access to more content.
So I think raiding guilds experiencing a loss in members are doing themselves (and the server itself) a disservice by not seeking out these inexperienced raiders. The more raiding players on a server, the better. And having players for whom a raid is more than just a chance at new gear always makes the raid more fun.