The bloat
by Zach Yonzon 
Aug 6th 2008 at 7:00PM
Koraa says that bloat is another term for "I can't have everything I want" and that Blizzard actually intends to make every class tree feel a little "bloated", forcing players to make tough yet interesting decisions regarding the talents they take and, ultimately, the talents they sacrifice. I said as much in a response to one reader, noting that talents look so good now that it's hard to ignore a lot of them.
This is actually a good thing. This allows for creative gameplay and diversity in builds... although of course, with millions of players looking to min/max, I have no doubt that there will eventually be cookie-cutter specs. If anything, it might be what Blizzard is trying to avoid. It would indeed be refreshing to see a little less homogeniety in viable specs in the game. Looking at the Wrath talent trees, do you think that they're bloated? Are there too many good talents to pass up on? In this case, I think, a little bloat is perfectly fine.
Filed under: Odds and ends, The Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
SpaceDog Aug 6th 2008 7:06PM
I think it's best to have the option to take something, yet not have the points to take it, than to not have the option at all (it's better to have loved and... gah, sorry).
They've got rid of some of the filler junk i.e. wand spec for mages, which can't be a bad thing.
People will complain about anything, really.
Hoggersbud Aug 6th 2008 7:11PM
I think there's just not enough bad talents to ignore.
Wistin Aug 6th 2008 7:15PM
This is the same as Sid Meier's concept of "Interesting choices".
Bob Aug 6th 2008 7:18PM
I for one would not have been disappointed if the talent trees had maintained their depth (ie 41 pt talents) but gotten wider instead. Deeper talent trees really just results in min-maxers finding the 'ideal' builds and everybody else following in their footsteps. Sure, there will always be a handful of points you can move around but the bulk of the builds will be fairly static once their strengths are developed.
Were the trees made wider vice deeper, Blizzard could put different utility options in the same trees resulting in a broader variety of useful builds. For example, prot warriors could get different builds in their tree for threat, mitigation, anti-caster etc. Just divide the talents such that one toon couldn't take each specialty and you'd see a little more variety in the armory instead of a few cookie-cutter builds per class.
Ærynn Lómëhtar Aug 6th 2008 7:45PM
This is probably the best idea so far!
Minidrake Aug 6th 2008 11:17PM
I would have liked to see wide, unified Talent Trees that looked like a Civilisation 2 Tech tree. Nice and wide, starting from distinct points that branch out and crossover. That would help lessen the cookie cutter effect, I think.
Stephen Aug 7th 2008 1:29AM
It's not that there are too many good new talents. It's the amount of points they cost. Take the priest discipline tree and Power Word Shield for example. Koraa has said that they are designing the discipline spec around making PWS a bread & butter spell. To get the full benefit of PWS and make it an efficient spell, it costs 18-21 talent points. That's what locks out the other talents.
zappo Aug 7th 2008 9:43AM
Currently I have reflective and improved PWS, but when looking at the wrath calculators I found I just couldn't bring myself to commit all the way on all those shield talents. But the great thing is that if I went around all those talents I ended up with a build I was still really happy with with very usefull abilities (new version of enlightenment is really kick ass imho).
The new holy tree looks sorta "meh" to me. If I end up spec'ing that way at all I'll go IDS. But even there, you can focus on AOE or single target healing.
My Assasination Rogue by contrast really has only one path when you really think about the talents. It makes it much easier but a lot less fun to mess with.
yazah Aug 6th 2008 7:20PM
@hoggersbud
I see you havent looked at the mage class recently.
(I kid, I kid, dont flame me)
Shenzhe Aug 6th 2008 7:25PM
I like the idea of having too many talents to take. I really begin to think of it as bloat when there are several talents you don't feel like taking, but have to, in order to get to the worthwhile talents in lower tiers. The hunter SV tree feels this way a little, but many of those talents fit the ideal of survival so to me it's quite bearable.
Tiforix Aug 6th 2008 7:37PM
As someone with both a Moonkin and a Frost Mage, I am concerned about bloat in both classes.
However, I see where Koraa (and Blizzard) is coming from, and I agree that more choices means more diversity. I predict a lot of respeccing going on as people experiment with different builds, and figure out which talents they're willing to pass on. Maybe that's our new money-sink. :P
bongato Aug 6th 2008 9:14PM
My frost mage is what I point to as well as an example of bloat. I know some people may see it as a good thing, but when I have to use 15 talent points to do the exact same thing (increase my frostbolt damage), something seems just a bit... excessive.
sephirah Aug 6th 2008 7:27PM
Too many new talents, and too few new spells...
Saryel Aug 6th 2008 7:34PM
I think the problem isn't so much about bloat but some odd pre-requisites they put on skills, at least in the protection tree for paladins. To get holy shield I need to get blessing of sanctuary which is a buff that almost never gets used, especially in higher content. Same thing applies to redoubt being linked to shield spec. As you start to fight through harder content redoubt is just not something you rely on but you have to have it to get the +30% block value. They really need to unlink these talents because they don't even make that much sense together.
Saryel Aug 6th 2008 7:35PM
I'm also not sure why they put the parry talent as the 2nd tier of ret. It's not too horrible to get but it doesn't make sense to me. Parry should be a tanking talent.
Bielek3139 Aug 6th 2008 9:59PM
I just think there shouldn't be more talents in a tree then you have points to spend. It sucks that if ya want to be a great druid healer you have to spend pretty much all your points in the resto tree and leaves you like 1-3 points to put elsewhere.
Saelorn Aug 6th 2008 7:59PM
Blessing of Sanctuary makes sense as a pre-requisite to Holy Shield: you have to learn the blessing of hurt-things-by-blocking before you can learn the super-concentrated-hurt-things-by-blocking skill. Also, last I checked, they stack and are incredibly useful together for AoE tanking.
Deflection makes a lot of sense on the Retribution tree because that tree is all about using a big, slow two-hander (same deal with warriors getting Deflection in the Arms tree); one of the main benefits of parry is the hasted counter-attack, which mainly benefits big and slow weapons. Remember, sixty-nine levels of the game are solo-able, but only one requires a group; group content is the only time a Retadin will not be able to make use of parry-hastened counter-attacks.
A good example of counter-intuitive pre-requisites would be Repentance being required for Fanatacism.
Siggy Aug 6th 2008 9:43PM
"Remember, sixty-nine levels of the game are solo-able, but only one requires a group; group content is the only time a Retadin will not be able to make use of parry-hastened counter-attacks."
And those sixty-nine levels can be blown through easily. 70 is where specs truly matter, 70 is where you should apply knowledge of the game and design a spec.
As long as there -are- talents, people will figure out cookie cutter specs-Which is, in my opinion, just fine. There should be a right and wrong way to spec, to gear, to enchant, to gem-Anything else makes things too situational and gives too many potential specs of one class for the same purpose.
Menalaous Aug 6th 2008 7:44PM
I agree with bloating them definatly. I also like the idea of making every tree at least viable for the classes role (especially dedicated classes like warriors).I hate being cookie cuttered. How does that make it "my game" if I have to play it a specific way to get to do anything.
I have enjoyed the past month of theory crafting LK talents for my warrior. I have put together what should be an awsome fury tank build, especially for lower pop raids/runs. Instead of being stuck with one build thats dps based.
Also the new prot tree has lots of room for movement and synergy with other trees due to its "bloatedness" You can make a warrior who's TCs and HSs have a chance to crit minimum 20% of the time without counting stats, just talents!
However, if you do that, then you will be missing out on some sweet block/prot dps/mitigation talents as well like Safe Guard, Critical Block, and Improved Revenge (which for pure prot builds I think will be worth it now.
I love it. Or hell there is even a viability for axes spec again in arms for a critwar (axe spec +5, incite +15, cruelty +5%) (do I like incite or what) once again, 25% (thats 1/4 approx when you add in actual variables) chance to crit without counting agilitiy/weapon skill etc!
Bloating is awsome!
jbodar Aug 6th 2008 10:59PM
/agree
The benefit of "bloat" is that, although there will always be "correct directions" to take with a character for Tanking, PVP Healing, PVE DPS, etc. there should still be a bit of flexibility to accommodate slightly different play-styles. Having more good talents than talent points per tree makes this possible.