The bloat

Koraa says that bloat is another term for "I can't have everything I want" and that Blizzard actually intends to make every class tree feel a little "bloated", forcing players to make tough yet interesting decisions regarding the talents they take and, ultimately, the talents they sacrifice. I said as much in a response to one reader, noting that talents look so good now that it's hard to ignore a lot of them.
This is actually a good thing. This allows for creative gameplay and diversity in builds... although of course, with millions of players looking to min/max, I have no doubt that there will eventually be cookie-cutter specs. If anything, it might be what Blizzard is trying to avoid. It would indeed be refreshing to see a little less homogeniety in viable specs in the game. Looking at the Wrath talent trees, do you think that they're bloated? Are there too many good talents to pass up on? In this case, I think, a little bloat is perfectly fine.
Filed under: Odds and ends, The Burning Crusade, Wrath of the Lich King
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Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Hawk Aug 6th 2008 7:51PM
I can't see "bloat" being a bad thing. As long as the talents are worthwhile. I personally like having choices.
yaba Aug 6th 2008 7:59PM
I like the idea.
But its a dangerous idea,you get 5 interesting options and you can only choose 2 thats cool,you get variety.
But you will only have variety if all 5 options,although diferent,are equally effective for the job.
Or...cookie cutter specs will appear again.
Snuzzle Aug 6th 2008 8:07PM
"Bloat" as Koraa describes it isn't necessarily bad, but when your chosen tree has more talents in it than you have points (even at 80) I think that's bloated. Jmho.
Leandar Aug 6th 2008 8:08PM
I think specs will be different at first but once people hit 80 they will start trying to find a good spec, when they think they've got it put it on a forum and other people give their opinions on it. In the end its back to TBC specing, everyone is the same.
kenney Aug 6th 2008 8:18PM
Maybe I don't get the concept of bloat, but I already want more talents than I can have. There is no one "best prot warr" build ever- there are at least 2 that are valid depending on what you min/max for, and a lot of variations on each of the primary ones, depending on what kind of content you are progressing through.
Making the trees wider would be interesting though- it would really hit some hybrids hard. There might be druids that could become very strong bears, or very fierce kitties, but didn't get 2 for the price of one, as it were.
Calaana Aug 6th 2008 8:23PM
I think the problem isn't so much the number of talents there are, so much as the number of must have talents.. they want diversity, but make so many things a requirement. I understand this to a degree, but there's a limit..
HankD Aug 6th 2008 8:34PM
I have my three "mains", all on the beta, and I don't feel like there's bloat on their trees, at least...
My "deep arcane" mage is very deep arcane now, he'll have 71 arcane at 80, and in planning it I felt like I got everything I wanted and not anything I didn't...
My ret pally has 5 pts in prot (for divine strength), and 66 in ret in his build... and I really really love the talent and spell changes, he's so much fun to play that I have trouble playing him on the live server now. :)
My prot warrior... yeah, I ran out of points trying to give him the things I wanted... but it just made me make some choices, which I don't mind doing. I'd much rather have choices than have points left over with nothing cool to spend 'em on...
hpavc Aug 6th 2008 8:40PM
The more talents the less cookie cutters, I hated pre-tbc (more than i do now) and wotlk looks better.
Its really situational respecing that I hate
Odok Aug 6th 2008 8:49PM
I don't think that definition of bloat is very fair. It could also mean that the talents have too many "essential" talents in one area of the tree.
TiM Aug 6th 2008 9:43PM
When it comes to bloat I'm with the "get it outta my tree" crowd. As a subt rogue thats plans on a subt leveling build as well as PVP I'm seeing way too many dagger talents in there that are basically not required for moving on to the 51 pt talent but will not be taken by anyone and that is the definition of bloat is it not? I have to agree with earlier posts though. Wider vs deeper trees would have made for a more refreshing approach this time around.
Mediator Aug 6th 2008 10:41PM
That's the opposite of bloated... if you could get all the talents you wanted with just 51 points in the tree, that tree is flawed... you should be sacrificing things if you want to be highly specialized in a role
tuller Aug 7th 2008 10:38AM
Subtlety is a dagger tree. The thing that does not belong is hemo :P
Shinken Aug 6th 2008 10:40PM
"Bloat" is fine if the idea is to differentiate specs but bad talents Imp rend, feral fairyfire, or brambles is what it compounds this "bloat".
A moonkin, to pick up omen and shapeshifter, has to pick up worthless talents along the way( faster HT? no thank you)
Make all talents good, then
we can talk about making talnets choices.
Bysshe Aug 6th 2008 11:36PM
Agreed.
my2cents Aug 7th 2008 3:29AM
Yes exactly. For my elemental shaman, if I wanted to go with a resto subspec (which current theorycrafting declares has become the inferior subspec for ele, but we're all about choices right?) there's a 5 rank talent that increases my crit chance by 5%. That's huge and truly wonderful for an elemental shaman. But with the changes to the resto tree, to get that talent I have to pick up at least 10 other talents that do not compliment my spec/role AT ALL. And even to do that, I have to sacrifice a few very nice talents in the elemental tree. That's not a fun type of "bloat."
Jonathon Aug 6th 2008 11:11PM
Heh, I was noticing this. I've been messing around with the Mage arcane tree, and so many of the talents are great that I end up with 8 or 9 points left over for other trees.... Usually I have at least 15. o.O So Blizzard is making me sacrifice certain talents to get others.
resonance Aug 6th 2008 11:28PM
The problem with Koraa's definition of "bloat" is it only covers two of the three scenarios where I think the term "bloat" applies.
The first is the "I can't do everything with the same spec" kind of bloat. This is the good type of bloat to leave in the game. The second would be the cases where you have to buy filler talents that don't do anything but help you move deeper down the tree. Koraa mentions Blizzard is willing to address that. However, there's a third form of bloat where you can't get everything you need even if you're narrowly focusing on just one role.
For example, you can't complete a feral spec focused on PVP in this build. Grabbing just the primarily PvP talents (along with the talents that make feral function at all) isn't possible without running out of points, even if you leave out some major dps boosting talents.
Daemon Gildas Aug 7th 2008 2:27PM
The Death Knight trees, more than any other class, seem the most scattered. As stated, min-maxers are going to have a field day with this one. It's hard to complain, though; if you're truly set of a specific spec (for me, Unholy atm), it at least gives you some options, without having to spend a respeccing cost.
In this particular case, I think talents should have a bit more synergy; PvP-oriented talents also drawing a high ammount of threat (even if immune to said talented skills). Unholy seems the most confused tree atm; I don't even know *what* they could do to make it useful, unless they drastically increase Pet viability and lower summoning cost for Ghouls and Undead (perhaps move Army of the Dead as the 51-point talent, and beef it up and lower the cost?)
Charlie Aug 7th 2008 3:08AM
I agree with blizzard, its a good thing.
Take deep holy for instance, depending on how your heal you may either want to take Test of Faith or Serendipity. If your a big CoH healer, Test of Faith might be worth it (as you rarely overheal that much), but if you tank heal alot you might want to go Serendipity.
Also, with the possible 'two talent specs' coming, really hardcore priests might make a serendipty spec and a test of faith spec, and switch between them depending on the encounter their learning.
All i know is, that whichever spec i go in wrath, i will be getting imp concetration. That talent makes me.... oh god... can't stop it... *splooge*.
Morthagrid Aug 7th 2008 5:46AM
This is something I compiled a few days ago on Bloat. This is putting All 71 points in a single tree and seeing how many points are left as per the current beta trees. As you can see Warlocks have the least bloat With 0 Bloat in the Affliction tree. Draw you own conclusions on the rest.
Talent Builds Unobtainable talents with 71 points
Mage Arcane Fire Frost
7 5 10
Priest Discipline Holy Shadow
9 6 4
Death Knight Blood Frost Unholy
9 7 11
Druid Balance Feral Restoration
5 2 7
Hunter Beast Mastery Markmanship Survival
2 12 5
Paladin Holy Protection Retribution
3 9 8
Rogue Assasination Combat Subtlety
8 16 3
Shaman Elemental Enhancement Restoration
2 8 7
Warlock Affliction Demonology Destruction
0 2 5
Warrior Arms Fury Protection
10 10 6