You break it, you bought it
by Natalie Mootz 
Aug 6th 2008 at 6:00PM
Larisa over at The Pink Pigtail Inn mused on an interesting question the other day: Should you pay for the wipes you cause? Her feeling is not only that you shouldn't, but that the mere fact of offering to pay is offensive to her, like offering hush-money or a bribe. Instead, she says, apologize quickly and confess what you did so that others can learn from your mistakes.I agree with the idea of the mistake-maker apologizing and confessing immediately. This technique also works in real life situations. (I wish it was heeded more often in politics, too.) Further, I vigorously disapprove of ham-fisted reactions from over-zealous raid leaders or guild leaders. Overreacting by /gkicking people (as one of the commenters related) in normal guilds is completely ridiculous. (If you joined a guild who wants to make world's firsts or server-firsts, then you know what you're getting into.) If you are the raid leader then you need to take responsibility for the team you put on the floor. In life, work, politics, and gaming, the buck stops with leadership. Leaders need to pick the right team and remind people who they know are not as experienced or strong in the particular raid situation about tactics, strategy, and common mistakes. Or else they need to chill the heck out. In fact, from a certain point of view, it's not the person who caused the wipe who should pay repair bills: it's the raid leader.
Other commenters on Larisa's post offered different payment plan ideas. One suggested a tax on all the loot acquired in the raid. Another suggested that before the raid even begins, raiders should pay an ante to participate, thereby socializing the costs of what might happen. Of course, there is the ever-popular solution of letting the guild pay for repairs afterwards, too. But as another commenter pointed out, repair bills and buff flasks for a 25-man raid can run a guild nearly 400G per run. My feeling is that as long as everyone goes into the raid knowing those taxes are being imposed, it sounds like a fine idea. Or, realizing that mistakes are going to be made, even by the most experienced and savvy players, we could all act like we realize that raising gold is as much a part of the game as raiding, questing, or grinding, and suck up our own repair bills, regardless of who caused the wipe.
[Via The Pink Pigtail Inn]
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Virtual selves, Guilds, Instances, Raiding, Making money
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
beatphreek Aug 6th 2008 6:14PM
"Or, realizing that mistakes are going to be made, even by the most experienced and savvy players, we could all act like we realize that raising gold is as much a part of the game as raiding, questing, or grinding, and suck up our own repair bills, regardless of who caused the wipe."
^^This...
Horixon Aug 6th 2008 6:21PM
/agree
Anaughtybear Aug 6th 2008 6:15PM
I totally agree that a team is the leader's responsibility. This goes for real life as well as WoW. It's not as easy as it seems however. Leaders should have the knowledge to advise all the skill sets that make up his or her team. Not only do they have to be a Jack of all trades, but they must also possess the pure leadership skills to control the team and be willing to take the hit for any member. As a former soldier, I can say that people with leadership skills are very rare, and you don't develop them simply be being the one in charge.
Jaegan Aug 6th 2008 6:37PM
Getting offended by offers to pay repair bills is silly. It is a nice gesture if done properly, especially if it came through negligence. I would rarely if ever take it, but I appreciate it as acknowledging fault and being willing to fix it.
I offer to pay repairs only if I do something knowing it will cause a wipe or because I am having fun with someone (talking pugs here, not friends/etc.) If I charge into a room and consecrate four pulls worth of mobs so I can see if the healer can keep me up, I'm willing to pay a few G for the fun of it if he can't. Usually I'll just say "that was a blast and worth the repair bill, just open trade if you want me to cover your repairs." If you get offended by that, don't know what to tell you.
Usually once incidental wipe due to idiocy is excusable. Second time the person should leave the group/apologize/pay repairs. Wipes due to you failing to heal/kick/etc. in time are generally excusable- negligence and idiocy are not.
Omestes Aug 7th 2008 7:24PM
Generally just acknowledging a mistake is enough to redeem a bad egg in any group. Its the people that either ignore it, or blame everyone else that are bad players, and go on the short list. When you say "oops", you prove that you are trying, and thus that you eventually L2play.
Offering money though... I wouldn't be offended, by I would think that they are over-reacting a bit. Its just a wipe, and just some fake money, it isn't a big deal (or at least it shouldn't be). We've ALL caused a wipe once or twice, it really is nothing.
Manatank Aug 6th 2008 6:35PM
If you just make sure your whole raid is composed of Paladins, you can always bubble/hearth anytime things are going poorly, and try again in a hour when the cool down for the stones are up.
Vylemacer Aug 7th 2008 8:01AM
^^ This.
rick gregory Aug 6th 2008 6:41PM
In a lot of cases it's not one person who causes thw wipes anyway... it's multiple people and/or you're at the edge of what you can do as a raid.
People who don't want to wipe in a raid have a really, really good option - don't raid. Wiping is part of it and if you think you're one-shotting every boss from Attumen through KJ you're high.
headworm Aug 7th 2008 4:52AM
I simply think people need to accept that shit happens and to grow the !@#$ up. It's play money people...
Untippable Aug 6th 2008 6:55PM
I can't imagine being offended by such a gesture, nor would I accept it. It has been my experience that the poor players that would cause a wipe through bad behavior or negligence would not ever offer anyway. Generally if someone is offering they accept their fault. This happened to me a couple of nights ago - a poorly timed misdirect wiped the group. I apologized, set down a repair bot and offered to help with repairs. I would much rather continue on with a player that understands their mistake and can be expected not to repeat it.
TJourney Aug 6th 2008 7:21PM
I always tell people to CoD me a fishing pole for the cost of their death
nobody takes up the offer
Bunskie Aug 6th 2008 7:11PM
I think you shouldn't have to pay for the wipe unless the mistake you made is really, really stupid. For example:
Feared into the whelps during an Onyxia battle, despite the fact that Will of the Forsaken has just come off it's cooldown? You've learned your lesson.
Ran into the whelps to avoid Onyxia's deep breath? You're paying for that.
Rob Aug 6th 2008 7:38PM
Heh. Well i can probably speak for most of the raiders and say I won't pay a guild if I cause the wipe. If I'm the sole cause of a 10man or 25 man wipe (repeatedly) I need to figure out what's going on or realize I'm not meant to be raiding with that group at that time. I have wiped raids, I'm sure everyone has. You need to be contrite, suck it up, and learn from it.
We used to have the policy if we know who caused the wipe they have to sing to us on vent on the corpse run. That was quickly abandoned for some reason.
Kara PUGs...well thats a different story. I did have the priveledge of getting 8 guildies and two PUGers on Monday. One PUGer just could not stop dying, 12 deaths up until Maiden. At that point I told her I need to remove her from the group. Maybe the tempo was too fast or the person was too inexperienced, who knows. Anyway, they got some badges and some loot so hopefully it wasn't a problem. But as it was, the person was useless to us.
As for gkicking people. Well if they are idiots you don't accept them into the guild in the first place. If they are truely absimal just take them raiding. You just don't gkick people from a BT/MH raiding guild at a drop of a hat. We also don't accept many people either (almost always due to maturity/gear issues or we are full on their spec).
I guess my main point would be that the game is pretty easy and anyone can down Illidan given a moderate amount of intelligence. Getting in the front door of a guild that can do so is a different issue. But generally, yeah raiding isn't all that hard, and mistakes do happen. The more organize and more adaptable you are the better things will be.
ZekeGrimsblade Aug 6th 2008 7:42PM
I think the difference I am seeing is that some of you feel that it's not that people SHOULD BE REQUIRED to pay, but that if they make a mistake, if they are honest, they will OFFER to pay. I personally agree that it should be a courtesy. If someone makes stupid mistakes alot, and refuses to pay anything, then they are not welcome on the Raid. If they make a stupid mistake, if it was me, I'd offer to pay the repair bill, but that's me.
Iwanttobeasleep Aug 6th 2008 7:50PM
Repair bills are the cost of raiding. Showing up to a raid means you agree to pay for repairs. Everyone causes a wipe once in a while, and if someone causes them too often the leaders should have a talk or kick.
I get uncomfortable when people honestly offer to pay for repair bills, particularly when they were being stupid. Even more when they do it without intending to pay for it. I don't want your money, and you shouldn't be offering it. Offering to pay just makes it more okay for people to complain about repair bills.
deviationer Aug 6th 2008 8:00PM
sorry but no. There is no way I'm paying for wiping nor would I be in a guild who has that policy. Grouping and Raiding is a G R O U P effort.
Wiping is part of the (raiding) game. If you don't like it, than don't raid and GTFO.
dark Aug 6th 2008 8:25PM
400g for the raid? whats the server name, and i'll transfer.....on the EU realms you dont get much change out of 100-150g for a decent nights raiding per person...flasks 40-60g (with mats probably more), pots, food repairs...
you guys doing hogger, for 16g a head on raid night?
as for the raid leader being responsible for the repairs after someone made an idiotic pull...is that a quote from the affirmitive action group for munters?
wonderfully silly post
Lori Aug 7th 2008 1:19AM
I did that math, as well, and thought for two IQD dailies, I would gladly ante 16g per raid. Especially if pots are included and, most importantly, it stops griping about repair bills. It might even be worth 3 IQD dailies which could amount to ~750g per raid for expenses.
Wonder what the average cost is for a 25 man raid. Maybe this is the route to go for some guilds.
kenney Aug 6th 2008 8:24PM
I think the best way to deal with this is having a "raider" title in the guild, which can be tied to whatever loot/invite system you have. If a player repeatedly wastes everyone elses' time (getting spouted 2-3 times is understandable- if you get spouted EVERY TIME in 7 attempts- you are a liability to the raid), then they lose raider status until they up their game.
This isn't an idea that appeals to the casual player, but it is an idea that appeals to people that consider their own time/enjoyment of the game to be of equal value to that of the casual player.
Biggles Aug 6th 2008 9:42PM
We shout loudly at the offender in Vent, telling them repeatedly they "lose 50 DKP". If we don't know who was at fault, we make it up, and shout louder.
This is fine because we haven't used DKP since BWL, and don't track it accordingly. You wipe when you raid - it happens. You pick up, learn, and move on.
I have a great guild. :-)