GC on raid stacking
Raid composition is going to change in Wrath of the Lich King. A certain part of this is obvious and inevitable: they're adding a new class. But there is another major factor that's changing. Currently, buffs and synergy are a large part of the reason you might choose to bring one class over another. Shamans' awesome Bloodlust/Heroism, for instance, and their Windfury Totem, has made it often a good idea to bring many Shamans to a 25-man raid, and almost mandatory to have at least one. Similarly, the fact that Warlocks synergize quite well with each other (Warlocks cause other Warlocks to do more damage), due to effects like that of Improved Shadow Bolt, has contributed to Mages being much less favored for Sunwell Plateau.
How is this going to change in Wrath? Ghostcrawler made another rather long post yesterday on raid stacking, and this is the essence of what he said:
- We want to limit the power of stacking raid buffs, like we limited the power of stacking consumables earlier.
- "We want the challenge of the encounter to be the fight itself, not collecting all of the buffs and debuffs you need to succeed." They don't want to nerf buffs, but they want them to be "less of a burden."
- Therefore, for most buffs, there will be multiple classes that can provide that buff, and they won't stack. For instance, you can get your magic vulnerability debuff either from Warlocks or from Death Knights; those two abilities will not stack with each other.
The ultimate goal of this is to cause raid leaders to want to bring players they like, or good players, and not feel like they have to bring certain classes to get certain buffs and debuffs; and also to help class balance. Of course, they recognize that certain guilds are going to strictly min/max in any case, but the idea is that the benefits of a few classes shouldn't be so overwhelming that you feel like you have to bring five of them.
It's an interesting move. Assuming they execute it well, and preserve class uniqueness and utility (as they are promising to do), I think it will be very good for the game. And as this is still beta, and they are actively collecting and implementing feedback, if it doesn't work well right now they'll have time to fix it. The Wrath development team seems (thankfully) much more responsive to feedback than the Burning Crusade dev team was.
Filed under: Raiding, Classes, Buffs, Wrath of the Lich King






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Elmo Aug 23rd 2008 4:11PM
I read something on this topic earlier.
Enhancement Shamans were unhappy DK's could do the same stuff as they could.
as they said: 'you can choose between a hybrid doing decent damage or a pure DPS giving the same buffs and doing more damage'
I'm not happy with this because Balance doesn't exist, neither will it ever exist in this game.
this could be a stab in the back for some specs as they see their raid viability decrease, and taken over by DK's who seem to be able to do everything by now
MisterMoose Aug 23rd 2008 5:11PM
The solution is pretty easy. All DPS specs have about the same DPS potential and scaling. If a class doesn't provide buffs, then its DPS is a tiny bit higher (say 5% max). Though personally I think all classes should provide good raid buffs and/or debuffs. Rogues perhaps could be a debuff-only class, I suppose, though a they could easily enough have a few buffs too. That would be a change for them, but far from problematic.
Remember that fine-tuning damage is going to be one of the last things they do for the classes in beta.
Anyhow, things don't have to be perfectly balanced, getting damage within 1 or 2% (assuming the same skill level) is good enough. Heck, even making skill being the main factor in DPS output (among DPS specs of all classes) would be quite sufficient for most people. They seem to be planning on doing some of column A and some of column B here, which is good stuff. Perfect balance? No, but close enough for 99.9% of the WoW community.
Tom Aug 23rd 2008 7:06PM
"Remember that fine-tuning damage is going to be one of the last things they do for the classes in beta."
Or, something they don't do until 6 months after the expansion goes live, as was the case with mages last time around.
MisterMoose Aug 23rd 2008 7:14PM
To be fair, they do seem to learn from their mistakes, and they know mages need a lot of work in this area. Hopefully we won't see a repeat of BC problems.
former customer Aug 23rd 2008 4:13PM
If utility is being given to DPS classes to make them comparable to hybrids in that department, then DPS needs to be given to hybrids to make them comparable in that department.
Shinken Aug 23rd 2008 4:50PM
Indeed, if a mage can become a mana battery and do better damage than a shadow priest....
Blizzard should not balance around player ecology and sociology.
Eternauta Aug 23rd 2008 5:10PM
/Agree
MisterMoose Aug 23rd 2008 5:12PM
Then they up the damage on Shadow Priests....job done!
They've done almost nothing to tune dps yet, remember.
MisterMoose Aug 23rd 2008 5:14PM
Err, I meant to say that's Blizzard's plan from everything I have read. Well, they are still hashing things out internally a bit, but overall that's the direction they are headed. The question is whether rogues are getting any utility or not (I tend to think all classes and specs should have utility).
Tom Aug 23rd 2008 7:14PM
Erm, DPS classes HAVE had essential raid utility all along. The article is about raid stacking, not hybrids specifically. You're seeing thing through your little goggles of bias and paranoia.
MisterMoose Aug 23rd 2008 7:18PM
Bias and paranoia? Why would I have any of that? Are you jumping to the conclusion that I play a rogue or something?
Anyhoo, Raid Buffs and Debuffs are a pretty big deal utility-wise. Rogues themselves don't have any ESSENTIAL raid utility, afaik, though they do have some nice class features. They are not like Shamans or Paladins (who do have ESSENTIAL raid utility). Of course, they are spreading out the essentials, though so far Rogues haven't gotten any. Imho, I think they should get some (perhaps different utility for different specs).
Elladin Aug 23rd 2008 4:14PM
Funny how shaman seem to be one of the least played classes in the game according to warcraftrealms, when they are so great for raiding.
lolwut Aug 23rd 2008 4:50PM
In terms of alliance they are still relatively new as they were released with BC and reasons why some people may not be raiding with shamans could possibly be because;
They already have mains of an alternative class.
Havn't rolled one or managed to get into the raiding scene with it.
Don't like Draenei.
Thats my outlook on it anyway...
Jane Gray Aug 23rd 2008 6:37PM
Even among the horde shaman are one of the less popular classes.
Nary Aug 25th 2008 5:09AM
Maybe people find those totems too confusing ;)
Charlie Aug 23rd 2008 4:44PM
I can see mages getting a boost. It depends how their buffs stack, but imp scorch and winter's chill giving 10% damage and crit respectivley to arcane, frost, and fire damage will be nice. That plus the new arcane talent Focus Mind which increases damage by 150 for 50 charges will make it worthwhile to have an arcane,frost, and fire mage in the raid. boomkins, destro locks, and DKs will love us.
Kiukiu Aug 23rd 2008 4:53PM
What I see a lot of is competition for raid spots from people who don't currently face it. Certain classes are stacked high into raids (Warlocks and Shamans being the examples given in this article) and if it means that some of these won't get to raid so that other people can...well...I can't see the problem with that.
As someone who routinely gets turned down (or even laughed at) for saying I can DPS even in a heroic or lowly Kara pug for being a ret paladin, I am not exactly going to shed a single tear if a warrior, rogue or some other class gets turned down for me. I'll simply start calling them "lolrogues" or something.
Balance is a fine and wonderful thing if it can be achieved but if it's not and it's suddenly me benefitting from it and not suffering, I'll settle for that :P
Jordrah Aug 23rd 2008 6:06PM
bitterness is not the answer... it'll just create a cycle and next time ret pallys get nerfed and warriors or rogues buffed you'll be treated even lower than now simply because you were an ass.
Argent Aug 23rd 2008 5:13PM
sounds like a great new way to limit the raid viability of paladins even more! :)
MisterMoose Aug 23rd 2008 5:15PM
Limit the raid viability of Paladins? Their auras hit the whole raid now and Pallies have been buffed across the board. Sure there are some problems now, but the Devs are planning on doing some more passes on Pallies before release.