The Care and Feeding of Warriors: The Great Divide part 1

They hit things. And that's it.
Everything warriors do is in terms of hitting things, ultimately. An argument could be made that some warriors spend an awful lot of time trying to make it so things that hit them don't kill them as fast as they could and that argument would have merit. But I'd argue that those warriors are merely attempting to optimize their hitting things time. Generally speaking, most things won't hit themselves, so if you die when they hit you, then they'll go off and hit someone else. You have to keep upright if you're to keep hitting anything.
Well, okay, I suppose warriors do two things. They hit things and they yell a lot. They yell at the mobs, they yell at their fellow adventurers which somehow makes them feel healthier (I admit that I'm not terribly sure why my shouting can have all these variable effects. I must have amazing vocal control. Like Don LaFontaine, may he rest in peace.) Well, it seems to me in reading the various posts by Ghostcrawler in the warrior beta forums that the intention for prot warriors is to emphasize their hitting of things.
I'm going to be honest at my own expense here: the other day, when talking about upcoming warrior changes, I was extremely negative, especially in the comments of the post. (The post itself wasn't that bad.) I was more negative than was warranted. I don't like going back and saying "Man, I was wrong" but while my points were made from a sincere sense of how tanking is working on beta right now, part of the problem (as always) comes from the twin devils of insufficient gear (especially with the way warrior tanking needs have so thoroughly changed) and the beta effect, when skills and abilities and talents simply are not done or balanced. No, warriors are not now, and never will be AoE tanks and it is very annoying to see other classes get your abilities but you not get parity with theirs. But I think, reading between the lines of what's being said on the forums, prot is going to complete an arc that's already been described by some prot warriors in full DPS gear on live.
Prot warriors will hit things very hard, and also yell at them.
"You Sunder, you Demo Shout, Battle Shout, Challenging Shout. You might Piercing Howl depending on the encounter. You Execute. You Intervene. See where I'm going...? If you are really winning or losing fights based on whether your tank can Innervate, then we've probably made the content too challenging. The difference in skill (or gear) between a potential warrior and druid tank should have a much bigger effect on the outcome.
The situations we've had before have been more like "The paladin can tank all of Heroic Shattered Halls with no CC" or "The druid can do nearly double your dps while tanking" or "The warrior can achieve passive crushing immunity and has the only ability that can handle Shear." Those are egregious barriers to having 4 viable tanking classes, which is why we're trying to fix them. " - Quoted from this post because I really want to look at the implications for warriors inherent in this statement, which is in response to a list of ways each potential tank contributes outside of tanking.
For starters, I don't agree with all of it. How often does a non-tanking warrior sunder in raids? (It does happen, I've had DPS warriors sundering on mobs being paladin tanked, but often the rogue will just expose anyway.) Demo and TC are nice for lowering melee DPS on a tank, if that tank doesn't have those abilities. (Druids will be demoing for themselves in 99% of tank situations, unless a boss is very threat sensitive and they can't waste the GCD.) Execute's not really a big draw at present for protection warriors who aren't tanking.
But all of that is on live. The problem I'm starting to notice is the divide between live, and my experience on live, and what's happening on the beta servers: the warrior class is changing a lot more than you see at first. All three trees are changing into chimerical beasts, differently designed than they have been before. And prot is definitely undergoing this transformation.
The second part of the statement is what I'm looking at with more contemplation. It's already been stated that it might be okay for non-prot warriors to have the ability to generate really high threat as long as their mitigation isn't up there with a prot warrior, and he's also said that prot will be able to have enough damage to contribute to a fight if they're not tanking at the moment. (He's also said that prot's DPS has gone up so much that they might be outdamaging arms warriors, which reminds me of the days of devastate hitting with both weapons if you were dual wielding, and which rightly should not be the case. DPS warriors shouldn't out tank tanking warriors and tanking warriors shouldn't out-DPS damage oriented warriors.) But the goal seems to be clear: it's not to make all tanks exactly equally viable in all roles.
It's to make all tanks equally viable by giving them the capacity to perform in all roles to some degree while also providing them with some sort of utility outside of their tanking role. And for warriors, this utility seems to be in damage output. Druids will still have their larger bag of tricks outside of tanking, as will paladins, but DK's and prot warriors who tank really only have one other option if they're not tanking at the moment, and that option is killing things. DK's bring a lot of AoE options (trust me, I've gotten mine to Northrend, they're quite impressive) and prot warriors can't hope to match it. So what are we left with? Single target DPS.
Prot warriors will be the tanks who hit things and yell at things. They'll just be better at both. Does TC count as hitting or yelling? I guess it's like both combined.
Now, to be fair and completely honest, the other day we ran Hyjal without any tanking paladins, and so I got to experience the real limits of warrior AoE tanking. I say this in part because I had devalued it. It is unequivocally true that paladins are by far the best AoE threat generation tanks, and they do so with much less button mashing than any other tank in live. But it is in fact possible for a warrior to go forward, spell reflect properly, and hold six necromancers and six abominations on himself through rather frantic use of every possible ability (I found myself rotating through aboms and spamming devastate and shield slam when possible, constantly shield blocking when it was up, hitting TC and using Cleave instead of HS as my rage dump, spell reflecting like mad, and swearing like an inebriated pirate who just stepped on his last bottle) although I will never say that it is or fun or remotely easy for him or her to do this. But it is possible. (And it was only possible with amazing healing and off tanks who ran in and peeled Abominations off of me as fast as possible so that I didn't die like a cockroach at a tap dancing invitational.)
One of the complaints I've seen on the beta forums (by frequent commenter Tchernobyl who also posts here quite often) that is valid is that warrior tanking turns your hand into a withered, gnarled unholy claw which is really more fit for wrenching the still beating hearts of the living from their bony prisons than, say, holding hands or doing something less awful. Well, okay, he didn't go that far. But it's a fair complaint: that night in Hyjal, my wrist felt like I'd replaced the cartilege and connective tissue with Folger's Crystals. I actually still have a rather large bump on my wrist from the experience. I am going to argue here that warrior tanking needs tweaks just to minimize this level of discomfort.
No, I probably shouldn't be hitting two buttons to tank every mob in a pull. (We can argue back and forth as to whether or not anyone should be.) But constant global cooldown spam (in order to tank at maximum threat a warrior pretty much constantly rides the cooldown, using every ability he or she has as soon as he or she can, to the point where on threat sensitive fights you may not be able to use abilities that don't directly contribute sufficient threat) - if the supposed changes to prot DPS and warrior threat free us in any way from this constant hammering on the keyboards, I will be totally supportive of them.
In the end, statements like "there's no reason to bring a warrior to tank" may feel valid... I know, because I made that statement two days ago... but they're both premature and they don't take into account the philosophy of tanking as a warrior being outlaid in fits and starts here. Now, I know as much as any long time warrior that you can't take every blue post as gospel, that you don't always understand exactly what they mean, and so on. But it seems pretty apparent to me in reading over those posts that what we're looking at is a shift in how warriors tank towards not only more damage, but also attempting to make tanking less about spamming every ability you have every time it's up.
At present, this means that warriors have huge itemization issues going into the expansion. Old school tanking gear doesn't combat rage starvation or address the new realities of how good strength is for warrior tanks now, and it's not going to be easy for well geared tanks to look at their Tier 6 and say "I guess I'll only wear the hat and gloves." When I level my human warrior on test (as his gear is far, far superior to my tauren) I'm going to have to swap out some of my standard tanking set for PvP pieces to do the first dungeons. My Gauntlets of Enforcement will probably stay desirable due to the expertise on them, but other pieces may well need to make room.
In the end, I'm hoping that, once this all shakes out, we'll see warrior tanks with greater AoE ability, less ridiculous button smashing (seriously, I have a bulge on my wrist from this, it's not cool) and solid ability to contribute to the raid. And I'm hopeful that the design philosophy that Ghostcrawler is outlining will allow us this. Warrior tanks won't have the plethora of abilities the hybrid tanks do. We won't have the sheer volume of AoE options DK's do. No, we're going to contribute to raids by smashing things and yelling at things, and I'm starting to believe that will be enough. I can only hope my trust is warranted.
Next week in part two, we'll talk about how Arms is shifting paradigms as well, from a dedicated PvP tree to one that provides a lot of DPS options for instances and raiding instead of one debuff.
Filed under: Warrior, Patches, Analysis / Opinion, Expansions, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors, Wrath of the Lich King






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Xonate Sep 5th 2008 3:14PM
I have to say, this article doesn't make me feel anymore comfortable with the direction that tanking as a warrior appears to be taking. Doing more damage is nice for... solo-ing? It helps with threat generation, sure... but feral druids will more than likely still be pumping out more pure damage. Even with our slightly increased AoE-tanking abilities, I just don't see why a warrior would ever be taken over a druid or paladin, at this point.
However, I'm at least partially glad that we don't have to be worried about spamming abilities completely based on the global cooldowns. Though in a way, that was what made warrior tanking challenging and fun.
Manatank Sep 5th 2008 4:10PM
"Doing more damage is nice for... solo-ing?"
Actually it is really nice when a raid brings several tanks and a particular boss, or phase only requires one tank. Providing single target DPS without a respec and without direct incoming damage is a serious advantage. It is something that prot paladins really can't do at all. In BC this was one of the greatest strengths of feral druids.
"sure... but feral druids will more than likely still be pumping out more pure damage."
That doesn't have to be the case. Druids have a bit more group utility in their buffs, battle-rez, and innervate. So, I think it would be fair if prot warriors could do as much or slightly more dps than a bear spec'd feral, but obviously less than a cat spec'd feral.
Let's reserve our judgements on this until we see live with some real raids and real gear.
Angus Sep 5th 2008 4:31PM
Meanwhile feral druids are worried they will never be asked to raids again...
Their armor is horrible, their dodge got hammered, and their DPS is still way less in kitty than something useful.
My guild has 2 warriors, 1 tankadin and 1 druid as our tank corps. There are 2 druids and 2 warriors that come as they can. The main group has all tanked winterchill, all but the tankadin has done anetheron and kaz and az. In 2 of those fights he's keeping our raid safe from adds and in the last he's healing to let our healers get mana back. We respect and value every one and we trust all of them to tank or DPS as needed. When WotLK comes, we will have all of them tanking in Naxx if they want. Doesn't matter if a druid can do more DPS. The goal is for a warrior or druid to be in the same gear and DPS well. If they can do that and something happens, well, having 1 extra tank is a godsend. We've had all of those tanks suddenly pick up a boss after a tank fell to luck or a screw up. And all have performed incredibly well and gotten us through it.
You do your job and do it well. If you do, you will always get an invite.
Mykeys Sep 5th 2008 3:17PM
So, you're saying they should make warrior tanking easier?
There riding that GCD and working hard for the simple fact that no other class can crank out the TPS and hold a single target as well.
Matthew Rossi Sep 5th 2008 3:23PM
Are you looking to be pissed off? Because picking a fight over the ridiculous level of button mashing we do is about the point where I just give up.
To try and answer: no, I don't want tanking to be easier, per se, I just don't want repetitive stress disorder in my wrists after a raid. The cyst I'm growing is really rather impressive.
tchernobyl Sep 5th 2008 3:24PM
Err...wrong. Single target threat has long been the niche of druids, which makes them such great offtanks. They can keep up with threat.
Warrior's niche has been survivability due to oh shit buttons, and those have been spread around to other classes. To even stay above dps on threat, one had to eye cooldowns and such like a hawk, making the tanking more painful than enjoyable, honestly.
Heilig Sep 5th 2008 4:00PM
While I agree, there is too much button mashing, it's not just warriors. On my paladin I like to throw out the activity meters from Recount at the end of a raid just to show people how much it is that tanks actually do. We are always on top by a wide margin, along with the tree druids who, realistically, don't HAVE to do as much as they do, they're just used to rolling lifeblooms non-stop. We actually NEED to hit a new button at every GCD.
Consecrate every 8, Holy Shield every 10, Judge/reseal every 8, twist Rightousness and Vengeance on bosses, Cleanse, Cleanse, Cleanse, Ashield every 30, Wings, Bubble/cancel to break fear, Freedom to break roots, HoW every 6 below 20%, aura shifts depending on what's being cast, exorcism every 15 on demons/undead, HoJ on casters, Taunt on practically every cooldown for the crit-happy casters, BoP while taunt is on cooldown for THE SAME STUPID CASTER, Chain-potting if there's not enough incoming damage, etc, etc, etc.
There are too many damn buttons to press to be the best tank around. But then again, knowing which ones to hit is what makes you the best tank around. Do you really want any idiot in the new cobalt tanking set to be able to do what you do just as well as you do because they have simplified tanking so much?
I can live with all my button mashing if that's going to be what separates the good from the great.
uncaringbear Sep 5th 2008 10:05PM
@ Heillig
No one is saying that tankadins don't mash buttons, but I will happily trade my warrior's arthritis-inducing mashing for your pally ez-mode mashing.
tchernobyl Sep 5th 2008 3:21PM
"warrior tanking turns your hand into a withered, gnarled unholy claw which is really more fit for wrenching the still beating hearts of the living from their bony prisons than, say, holding hands or doing something less awful"
ahahahah~ how eloquently put!
But yes, the effort required for tanking as a warrior, especially AOE tanking, is quite...obscene, to say the least. As for the gearing issues.. a lot of existing shaman gear (tier 4 through 6 and season gear) had their STR changed to direct AP on beta servers.. so for tanking gear, the itemization pass might still be pending.
Incidently, I decided to try out that 40ish arms and 20ish prot build serennia mentioned, for 1 second cooldown improved revenge spam. While there were issues on aoe pulls, single target threat was excellent, and never got pulled off of me even by two 80 DKs, one frost one unholy I believe. Though blizz has been made aware of this and will probably tweak that.
wowi Sep 5th 2008 7:19PM
Tanking damaged my hand so much I can't play my warrior any more. I work as a coder, my livelihood is at stake. I wear a band around my 3 smaller fingers now just so I can type without pain.
I've found a bit of a workaround by using Switchblade and an XBox 360 controller, but it's worse than being a keyturner. I feel shabby trying to tank with a druid let alone a warrior.
With SB, HS + GCD to use in 1.5s, that's a button up to every 0.5s... it's insane. No other class has to work so hard, I could almost accept it if there was a payoff but the reality is warriors deform themselves just to be equal.
The great thing about the paladin design is they're based on cooldowns. Everything is on a long CD so it's important not to waste it. OTOH, everything is powerful so you don't have to hit 3 buttons a second.
Saelorn Sep 5th 2008 3:27PM
Assuming Prot warrior DPS goes up enough to balance the DPS and the utility of a cat druid, I would say this is a fair trade off. Being able to solo faster is a huge benefit, and it should even make a lot of instances easier if we can burn down the enemies faster.
My real hope is that Blizzard designs a couple of instances where every enemy has a crossbow, necessitating crowd control measures instead of allowing AoE tanking. Crowd Controllers have gotten lazy, and as a warrior I refuse to tab-devastate tank just because the mage is too lazy to sheep.
Xonate Sep 5th 2008 3:38PM
But if the only trade off is protection warrior DPS going up a bit, why take one at all when a fury warrior will put out more DPS? You could argue that they could make decent off-tanks, but even then, you could just take a feral druid instead, who now have the last stand, as well as massive life and armor pools, and no longer have to soak crushing blows. I just don't see how increasing protection warrior damage output is going to help us at all when it comes to raiding, when there are going to be better options regardless.
Matthew Rossi Sep 5th 2008 3:43PM
Xonate:
Feral druids will now have to make real choices about being tanks. Talents like Mother Bear compensate for the rogue leather they're wearing: if a druid really wants to step up and be a tank, his DPS isn't going to be as high even in cat gear compared to a warrior, even a prot warrior.
DPS ferals will still have offtanking/five man viability, but for raids, I expect you'll see druids really making some careful talent choices for boss tanking. Whereas a prot warrior, who will still be boss ready, will have more overall damage to counteract the flexibility of druid tanks having all those other buffs.
Look, we all know there will be min maxing, and none of us know what the final outcome will be. It's easy to be pessimistic. But I'm not getting the sense that warriors are going to be second rate tanks, doomed to suck on trash and be crappy DPS from Ghostcrawler's posts.
I think Prot is going to be a much more aggressive way to tank than it has been.
Xonate Sep 5th 2008 3:49PM
Thanks Matthew. I wasn't aware of the more in depth changes to druid tanking, and I've only occasionally glanced at the new talents and stuff. I'll admit, not being in the Wrath beta, I'm only going off of what I know from playing now, and what I've heard from other people, whether guildmates in beta, or here on wowinsider or other informative sites. Thanks for correcting me there! I'll try to research more about druid tanking in Wrath so that I can make better and more informative posts in the future about the subject. =)
Guy Sep 5th 2008 3:28PM
i'm worried.
as a prot war coming from old school wow into bc i lost ALLOT of tanking/raiding to pallies and druids, and now going into wraith it seems to me there will be NO call for war tanks anymore.
lets be fair, at a guild raid team lvl, theres 1 maybe 2 prot tanks. so unless u're grand fathered in, are the GM, or willing to put up with months and months of under geared pugs for raids, u cant be MT or OT anymore. in wraith it seems, with the exception of maybe 20 on the server for the big progression guilds, the prot war will be dead. :(
Matthew Rossi Sep 5th 2008 3:37PM
I understand why you think so, but let me try and put you at ease as best I can.
Prot gearing will be easier for up and coming warriors: the stats are much easier to spot. You need str, stam and defense. Other stuff like dodge, parry and block are nice, but to get you started in tanking 5 mans, all you need is str, stam and defense.
You don't need uncrittable, and you won't be crushed, so you can go into these instances with whatever green gear you can pick up and those blue tanking rewards from quests and go, and hold aggro, and be less awful to heal since there's no chance you'll get crushed in those level 80 heroics. The only source of spike damage you even need to consider is crits, and I won't like to you there: to get to uncrittable at level 80, you'll need 540 defense, which will require 690 defense rating.
That's the only target you'll have to aim for. You won't have to worry about stacking block value for threat, because the strength on your gear now provides all that block value, and will add to threat on a number of abilities.
A lot of stuff is still up in the air. It may not work out like they hope. We all remember rage normalization and how tanking was when BC started, but I do think we're seeing a real effort on their part to make warrior tanking more involving and easier to gear for, not to freeze you out while you run dozens of awful PuG's.
Naix Sep 5th 2008 3:33PM
Warriors, at the heart of it, only do one thing.
They hit things and hold agro as a tank.
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There I fixed it for you. Just copy and paste it.
Matthew Rossi Sep 5th 2008 3:37PM
My guild's DPS warriors were #1 and #2 on Azgalor this week.
Heilig Sep 5th 2008 4:07PM
LOL, of course they were, they can't be silenced. Our melee classes are always on top on Azgalor too.
How did they do on Anetheron?
Matthew Rossi Sep 5th 2008 4:09PM
One of them is almost always #1 or #2 on just about every fight unless there's a huge reason why melee can't contribute, like having to run away from Carrion Swarm and kite Infernals around. But he was #3 or 4, if I remember correctly.
My point was just that Naix's usual "All warriors can do is tank" shtick is getting old.