Ghostcrawler discusses balance in 8926
by Eliah Hecht 
Sep 11th 2008 at 5:30PM
A lot of classes are pretty upset about some of the changes we've seen in beta build 8926. Shamans are dot shocking (what else is new), I'm complaining about Holy Priests (ditto), etc. In short, there were a lot of nerfs. Ghostcrawler has emerged to let us know that indeed, there were a lot of nerfs, and there's a reason for it: talents have a budget.
You may be familiar with itemization budgets. Basically, an item of a particular item level has a certain amount of "points" to spend on various stats; if you want to load an item up with Stam, it's not going to have as much to spend on Agi, for instance. This is also the reason why caster weapons have low DPS, because they borrow points from weapon DPS to spend on stats like spell power.
Similarly, talents have a certain amount of power that they're budgeted for. As a specific example, GC stated that "we have an idea for example that a talent point should be worth around a 1% dps increase," which was really nice to see because this has been a personal benchmark of mine for a long time. Some talents are under this and tend to be viewed as filler, and some talents are far, far over this and tend to be viewed as mandatory. This pass was intended to balance that out to a certain extent, to tone down the talents that were just stomping all over the other ones.
GC goes on to clarify that this is not an class-vs-class balance pass. They don't have the data yet to make sure one class is as good as the next. And of course the best thing to do, if you're in the beta, is go out there, test, and give feedback. I do think that a lot of things were over-nerfed, but that will probably become clear enough soon.
Filed under: Classes, Talents, Wrath of the Lich King
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
mike Sep 11th 2008 5:38PM
ya, i see how it works, and i do agree that some classes were OVER nerfed. as long as hunters are ok, im fine :)
Red Sep 11th 2008 5:41PM
Why do people get so worked up about "nerfs" in a beta. It's a Beta! Nothing is implemented yet. Most people aren't even in the beta to be able to play around with the talents and are still crying foul. Let the devs balance the game, whether this means increasing or decreasing the power of a spell or talent really does not matter at this point.
p-diddy Sep 11th 2008 5:54PM
The fear is that if they don't wig out, the devs will think the change is a fine idea and leave it in the live version.
Squeaky wheel gets the grease 'n' all.
brucimus Sep 11th 2008 6:33PM
I agree with you Red. It's absolutely to early to start QQing about an unfinished game. I hate whiners
skynes Sep 11th 2008 6:35PM
Nonsense. They're perfectly capable of seeing the numbers themselves.
p-diddy Sep 11th 2008 7:25PM
I said the "fear" is that the devs will leave it as is. Fear is rarely leads to rational thinking.
Zep Sep 11th 2008 5:42PM
Do the higher level talents have a higher budget cost, or is your 51 point talent going to be the same 1% as your first tier talent? And what about single-talents versus 2, 3, and 5 pointers?
Kastirin Sep 11th 2008 6:56PM
I suspect that not all talents are equal (duh); they try to balance the number of 'talent budget points' a player can pick up in a single spec. If a player can pick up too many 'budget points' they probably try to nerf the talents they think will have the most impact on that particular spec without negatively affecting other, more balanced specs.
So it stands to reason that 51pointers have a larger budget since you can only fit a single one into any given build.
Blarg Sep 11th 2008 5:56PM
Nice update on incoming buffs for priests thread: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=9679634528&sid=2000&pageNo=2. Looks like a bunch of back and forth with the class designer.
STereo Sep 11th 2008 6:00PM
My main is a hunter so if they don't fix hunters for WOTLK, nothing else matters. I don't care about new zones, new instances, new bg, etc... If my hunter isn't fixed, (and it's not as it looks now) then I'm not buying WOTLK.
Yeah they'll miss my 50 bucks for WOTLK and 15 a month a lot I know. But I'm thinking it will be 15*a large number of a popular class who were already fed up, and see no help on the way.
Chris Sep 11th 2008 6:44PM
My god, I truly hope you're right.
If WotLK makes every hunter quit the game (or at least nerfs the @#$% out of them) then I'll be one happy chappy.
Ametrine Sep 11th 2008 7:45PM
@Chris:
Are you naturally that big of a jerk, or did you have to practice?
You must really be a terrible person (not player, person), if the only way you can enjoy the game is to insist it be ruined for other people.
And that goes for all the other people who demand huge nerfs for classes they don't play.
Lyrael Sep 11th 2008 9:22PM
I'm one of those 10% of hunters who actually try to learn how to play and comments like this make me want to pay 50 bucks just so that people like STereo won't play...there's a reason we have a bad name & he's one of them.
@STereo...have you even looked at some of the amazing talents & pets we'll get in the expansion? I suggest that you take a quick look at the BRK posts & then re-think your attitude.
The current beta build is just that...BETA. It means that the devs are trying to work out the balance in the game and if it means that some skills/talents go up or down during that time, so be it. As long as they're equal when it hits live, I'll be happy (as will most mature hunters and players of every class).
Lyrael, on behalf of the NHA (Non-Huntards Alliance)
Hardy Sep 11th 2008 5:58PM
All I know is Priests overall are pretty damn useless now, but again, I expected this. Blizzard has NEVER been good with class balance, and their methods of fixing it have been the weirdest method I've seen in a game like this.
STereo Sep 11th 2008 6:06PM
And to answer the question about why we're getting so worked up over
a beta: The fact is, hunters were broken in the TBC beta AND STILL
have not been fixed. Four seasons of arena, the entire run of TBC
and the class is STILL broken. And now it is broken again in the Wrath
beta.
oldwisemonk Sep 11th 2008 6:40PM
Perhaps the devs want the numbers of hunters to go down. Blame the huntards. ;)
toy Sep 11th 2008 9:57PM
so can you actually define broken? I hear blah blah but I see no real meat or ways to fix. Every class has their issues. My rogue has been chased by your pets forever despite vanish and stealth. I am sure the folks on here can define an issue for every class. And the fact is that despite being broken you continue to play. You can quit (which many non pet controlling hunters should do) or reroll a class you think is not broken. Try a shaman. 3 destinct specs that all are played different and non have been great and will actually improve play because of it.
Recol Sep 11th 2008 6:20PM
Ive said it before:Budgets are a silly,primitive and inneffective system and I dont like it.
You dont balance each point to be 2.5089% whatever.
Specs should be balanced and all talents should be usefull, but on the big picture not per point spent.
Logic and common sense>Perfect math value.
Andrew Sep 11th 2008 7:20PM
You have to budget using numbers: This game is only that: numbers. You can ' t emply empathy and heart in deciding whether Vindication is 5points and increases dps by 15% or is 3 points and increases dps by 5%, you have to use math. Balancing classes uses the same verb as balancing the checkbook for a reason.
neo Sep 13th 2008 12:52AM
He said that talents were supposed to be "around" 1%
that doesn't sound like a perfect math value to me.
Some people just like to slam people for the heck of it.