The Care and Feeding of Warriors: The Great Divide Part 2
I had intended to talk about the new paradigm for Arms warriors in the Beta and, presumably, patch 3.0 when it goes live. I had intended this, but I'm not going to, because as of beta build 8926, I don't really know where either DPS spec is going. I've taken my human warrior into a very heavy prot spec and, quite frankly, am doing more damage with far higher survivability than I would have in arms or fury.When I talked about how I felt prot was going to develop last week, I had no idea how far I was understating it. Talents like Damage Shield, the changes to Shockwave and Devastate, and how much crit you can get on your special abilities with Critical Block, Sword and Board and Incite make prot a remarkably strong tree for soloing/grinding/leveling. With 600 block value or more (not terribly hard to get now that 2 str = 1 SBV) Damage Shield and Shield Slam can rip mobs in half. 2000 point Shield Slams are far from rare with an extra 15% crit on your slams, and with full Improved Defensive Stance you can sit in D stance and have a 100% chance to enrage on any successful block, parry or dodge, giving you the option to do more damage or to spend the enrage to heal yourself for a significant chunk of your total health.
Compared to that, Fury's capstone ability now has an additional 15% chance to miss tacked onto it, and Arms is based around a series of procs involving bleed effects and Overpower which could be very powerful for DPS, but which still requires them to either stance dance or sit in battle stance, costing them 3% crit for no other benefit than the ability to use Overpower at all. Some talents in either Arms or Fury have been changed in an interesting manner... the new Enrage has a 30% chance to increase your damage by up to 10% when you take any damage at all, it's no longer limited to you having taken a critical hit. This makes Enrage less sucktastic for PvP, but it's still a talent that increases your DPS in a situation no DPS warrior wants to be in, meaning that you're spending talent points for a damage boost that only comes when you've taken damage, which you're not supposed to be doing.
I'm not ready to freak out and cry that the sky is falling or that warriors have really been nerfed in this beta build. For one thing, as many would point out, it's just beta, nothing is written in stone. Furthermore, changes like Enrage make me think Blizzard is looking to increase the way in which conditions like an enrage can be entered, giving the Enraged Regeneration ability more ways to be useful... you'd have to admit that a fury warrior who just took damage probably wouldn't mind the ability to heal over time to some extent.
Warrior DPS is, just as warrior tanking, based on a very simple notion of hitting things. Unlike a rogue, who starts with a full Energy bar and must manage combo points to properly exploit his or her full assortment of damaging abilities, a DPSing warrior is purely about hitting and hitting more until he or she has built up enough rage to hit really, really hard. The change to Titan's Grip, therefore, means that a fury warrior who wants to be as good at hitting as he or she really can be will have to gear for as much plus hit as can be attained, because that extra 15% chance to miss is a spine-breaker for any hope you may have had to actually deal some damage. It doesn't (or isn't intended) to add to the miss chance with white hits, thankfully.
As bad as the TG change is, it's killed my desire to take the talent... as one person said, why would I take a talent where I'm required to gear to make up an additional 15% miss rate on my special attacks when I have no chance to come close to that level of hit before 25 man raids? You can't take TG as a leveling warrior now, you'd be foolish to unless you have rogue levels of hit on your gear. But fury could be fixed fairly easily by lowering the miss chance to something reasonable like 5%. Arms is a conceptually briliant tree that fails to really deliver anything of its promise in actual play as it stands, and I'm far more concerned that it's not going to get fixed before release.
I should make sure to admit that if Arms isn't in good shape by release, it won't hurt me at all. I don't PvP much, and when I DPS I usually go fury nowadays. 95% of my time I'm tanking, and prot is strong, so strong that I would have no hesitation about doing DPS in a raid in a prot spec once the pre-Wrath patch goes live. Heck, I do it now when we o I nly need one tank on the rare occasion it's not me. With 80% weapon damage on Devastate alone I'd be feeling good about prot DPS, but combine that with everything else the tree is getting and I'm frankly a little worried about my fury and arms brothers. Why would a raid take them? I can do anything they can except provide a healing debuff, and I can tank with threat like you haven't seen. On a Nexus run this afternoon alliance side Northrend (because I hadn't played my human in the beta much, just my tauren) in the gear I usually tank heroics in on live I tanked a run with a DK, a hunter and two pallies. We used no traps. We used no CC. I didn't need it. I held aggro on three or four mob pulls with ease, charging into packs, using spell reflect and thunderclap and damage shield, shockwaving when it was up. Things stuck to me like glue.
Honestly, I know there have been posts about how talents are budgeted. I am fully willing to believe that they're trying very hard to make everyone fun and well-balanced, that the final numbers pass hasn't gone live, and so on. I think they've done an amazing job on tanking specs/classes so far and I'm very happy with where prot is right now. But I don't feel like Arms has gotten anything like a cohesive look by developers. I don't feel like they really know what they wants arms to be, frankly, and this is a problem that transcends talent budgeting. Arms is in this weird limbo between being the tree focused on weapons (the various specializations) and the tree focused on weird bleed effects and procs based on them. I have no issue with the concept of talents like Wrecking Crew, Justified Killing (in fact, a parry based ability makes a lot of sense in arms, since it's supposed to be the weapon tree) or other talents that seem to work around the idea of arms as a precise, mastery of weapons oriented tree, dealing a death of a thousand cuts on enemies, weakening them, setting up other attacks to do more damage. This is all fine and dandy in concept.
The problem is with the execution. More synergy between Deep Wounds, Taste for Blood, Blood Frenzy and Trauma (which are tantalyzingly close to being an awesome set of abilities that work well off of each other, limited mostly by Overpower's limitations) would do wonderful things to move arms in the 'death by superior skill' direction that I think is the goal of the tree's redesign to date in beta. Honestly, those talents aren't bad, they're just slightly weak, at least in my opinion. Compared to Bladestorm, they're astonishing.
Bladestorm drives me insane. It's so cool in theory, and so awful when you actually use it. I know the people who do design work for Blizzard are smarter than me, I'm not going to pretend I could do better or anything. But please, please, someone either fix this talent or take it out back and shoot it, because it's broken. It's just awful, every time I spec arms I find myself taking it, trying it out a few times, then respeccing to get rid of it. It costs 25 rage, you can't use it to break fear, and the damage you do spinning around is not really that great when you consider that you just gave up the ability to generate rage for six seconds. I'm so tired of arms being defined so heavily by its 31 point talent, but it's still far and away better than Bladestorm, a talent that's 20 points more expensive to get.
In general, I applaud the idea I believe Arms is shooting for... that being a tree defined by a mastery of weapons and weapon techniques instead of the raw fury or unyiedling spiked wall approaches of the other trees. I just think it's yet to find the right way to express this and I'm hopeful they'll tighten it up for both PvE and PvP soon.
Next week, fury and how it vacillates between disappointment and excellence. Are the first tiers bloated with unnecessary talents? Is it in fact fair to say that TG was too good, but it's carrying a tree that's not good enough? Where does the talent spread seem to be headed?
Filed under: Warrior, Analysis / Opinion, Expansions, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors, Wrath of the Lich King






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Andrew Sep 12th 2008 4:19PM
Honestly I really have to agree. Mostly being a prot warrior until season 4 came out and I stopped raiding Prot has seen a ton of advances. Fury was tempting me but 15% hit to abilites that do 60% of your damage that seems harsh.
Arms has been a disappointment for the start. I don't really feel its ever been that great for a leveling tree since early vanilla wow.
I don't think they are that far off fixing arms, just make overpower useable in all stances or all but def stance and arms would be a lot more attractive.
Rugus Sep 12th 2008 4:19PM
As soon as I discovered the Titan's Grip stuff I was pretty excited about the warrior class. That's why I rerolled a warrior (now @65). The point is... will I have fun or not with him, while leveling 70->80?
TG is amazing but as Matthew says, "why oh why" should I invest so many points in the fury tree to stick on a 15% nerf?
Asylumn Sep 12th 2008 4:26PM
Ya...when I logged onto the beta only to recieve a slap in the face for using TG, I immediately respec'd not to get it...whats the point in giving us a talent, then punishing us about it? I mean, give us the reduced swing speed, I can live with that; but come on..15% chance to miss? Thanks Blizz.
Randal Sep 12th 2008 4:30PM
You really took the words out of my mouth. I'm VERY concerned with the Arms tree.
I am my guilds tank, so the prot stuff sounds awesome, but I do everything other than tank in Arms. I love pvp and for some reason, I REALLY want to stay arms. I LOVE the idea of focusing on bleeds and overpower...but those two skills are only usable in Battle Stance, which makes me lose a lot of my pvp abilities. (Fear breaking and improved crit and whirlwind)
I'd even be able to swallow the loss of crit and ww if I could break fears from battle stance.
I don't want to get too nervous, but it seems like my concerns are things they aren't going to fix.
I REALLY don't want to go fury for pvp.
Izzy Sep 15th 2008 10:31PM
I STARTED this game in Arms, and I want to CONTINUE in Arms. When I got a mob that dropped a 2 hander and I equipped that bad boy, I knew it was love at first sight. I copied my character onto Beta and tested this fabled 'Bladestorm'...and found it flashy, cool..and so underwhelming. Strangely, I would almost love to find that Bladestorm was redesigned to enable you to whip out a second two-hander weapon for a ten second duration to be able to dice apart anything around you with enchanced damage and a speed penalty cut in half. I still believe a function like TG belongs in Arms, and Heroic leap staying in Fury.
I hope this is fixed. I'm almost willing to put my Arms warrior into statis while it is rather than force him to play a broken tree.
Tcgjarhead Sep 12th 2008 4:30PM
The beta has been one dissapointment after another as a fury warrior. If these changes to TG go live then they are going to be looking at most if not all DPS warriors getting about the same talents we get on live now then going into arms for a weapon spec.
I've heard that certain Devastate specs are doing lots more damage than TG in its current form. : /
dan Sep 12th 2008 4:40PM
Prior to this patch tests were run regarding arms builds in battle stance, arms builds in zerk stance, and tg builds in zerk stance and in order of dps output it was:
1. arms zerk
2. arms battle
3. tg zerk
All the kerfluffle about arms dps needs to also consider talents like sudden death.
Martyr Sep 12th 2008 4:47PM
i do hope that blizzard are nerfing the warriors in beta and then seriously vamping up the dps side for the arms and fury guys when it goes live to make them all feel better. it'll be a psychological boost to all warriors after the constant nerfing. Warrior dps has always stacked with gear. even back in the good old MC days. And the problem that blizz has always had is that the high end content dps warriors end up having way to much dps, so they implement a nerf, however they then kinda negate the fact that 70% of warriors out there aren't serious raiders and then they all slowly but surely become null and void (yes an exaggeration but u know what i mean).
It'll either end up being that blizz buffs the dps warriors before it goes live, or they stay exactly the same and they'll never get a nerf and that dps warriors will own in T8 and T9 content.
PS i hope they leave the prot tanks alone. i'm salivating at the enthusiasm of the thread poster regarding prot tanking and dps.
Martyr EU bloodscalp
Archex Sep 12th 2008 4:48PM
The "counter-balance" (nice euphemism for nerf eh?) on TG is a killer. I can't imagine actually wanting to play a spec where I just whiff and whiff and whiff and stand around with no rage available. All math aside, that just stinks.
Stacking +Hit gems also sucks. Some gear doesn't have sockets - does that make those items now unusable? I guess no more socket bonuses either. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not aware of other specs in the game that MUST socket a specific gem in order to be even viable. Sure every spec has a favorite stat to stack gems for, but are they unusable specs w/o them? Matt hits it right on the head, you just can't expect to be able to level from 70-80 as a TG warrior if this is the way the talent goes live.
I despise tanking and don't PVP, but I love my DW Fury warrior - was the first toon I ever rolled and gets ~90% of my playtime. I'm not one to get all doom and gloom and "ZOMGBLIZNRFDME /CANCELACCT!!1!!!111!", but if Fury isn't fun I think I'm going to be glad DKs start at 55.
Daymon Sep 12th 2008 4:51PM
To be honest, now that prot is what it should be long ago, i'm more worried about funtionality, dps warriors has 2 options now to be viable raiders: spec prot or reroll another class if they don't like it. I think the 1st is what is going to be, therefore everybody prot??!!!
thats bad news to the 24/7 all loving prot warrs; you'll have all the dps warriors fighting for your loot. not because they will tank, but because they will use it for DPS, so i foresight a bit of competition drama, not sayin competiotion is bad, but is already enough hard to get spot as MT/OT in a good guild, all those are full atm; so then you'll have to run against your fellow dps warriors, that in the past there were no threat to your tank status in the raid.
Talentswise, seen that arms is more weapons oriented, does any1 see tha TG is more like to be were Bladestorm is? Switch places maibe, is more logic to me.
Can-O-War Sep 13th 2008 1:25PM
Yes, but really fury is all about crazy brutal attacks with two weapons. Arms is all about finesse with one. It makes more sense for the blood crazed one to be swinging wildly with two giant weapons.
I am quite fearful about all of this. I have done more tanking then most fury warriors through out my time playing. Not to say i didn't enjoy it, but I really prefer playing a fury warrior. It's more fun to be rapidly smashing in the face of my opponents in a win or die type of battle then sitting there hammering devastate-> devastate-> revenge-> shield slam. TG is unusable in its current iteration. It might even make me take a break from my warrior and actually play my hunter (i hate playing my hunter).
Daymon Sep 12th 2008 4:54PM
To be honest, now that prot is what it should be long ago, i'm more worried about funtionality, dps warriors has 2 options now to be viable raiders: spec prot or reroll another class if they don't like it. I think the 1st is what is going to be, therefore everybody prot??!!!
thats bad news to the 24/7 all loving prot warrs; you'll have all the dps warriors fighting for your loot. not because they will tank, but because they will use it for DPS, so i foresight a bit of competition drama, not sayin competiotion is bad, but is already enough hard to get spot as MT/OT in a good guild, all those are full atm; so then you'll have to run against your fellow dps warriors, that in the past there were no threat to your tank status in the raid.
Talentswise, seen that arms is more weapons oriented, does any1 see tha TG is more like to be were Bladestorm is? Switch places maibe, is more logic to me.
NekoDaimyo Sep 12th 2008 4:55PM
Having just gotten into the beta last night, and, despite the rage over the TG nerf, I took my 70 warrior in Kara gear, specced into TG, and I found I didn't notice too many misses. This could be due to lag, or the 12.something% total hit I have, though.
Dave Sep 12th 2008 5:01PM
Sooooooo... 30% of your health can be regenerated every time you avoid an attack (which even a half-decent tank will be doing 60% of the time)? How are us paladins supposed to keep up with that?
Naix Sep 12th 2008 5:04PM
Seeing the nurf bat come swinging towards hunters and warlocks this week. How about it swing over and knock some of these OP warrior abilities down a few notches.
Nurf bat swwwiiiinggg!
Zonin Sep 12th 2008 5:09PM
@ Dave
Didn't notice the 3 minute cooldown, eh?
Dave Sep 12th 2008 5:50PM
Fair enough, I only thought of that after I posted.
Arkkoran Sep 12th 2008 5:08PM
Awesome. The one thing I was actually excited about in the beta (Titan's Grip) is pretty much useless now. I leveled a warrior up because I heard about that skill, and now it's nerfed past usefulness. I finally thought I'd be able to play a class I actually had FUN playing, but not now.
GG Blizz. You'll probably find me going back to EQ2 if it doesn't get fixed.
Naix Sep 12th 2008 5:09PM
"Warrior DPS is, just as warrior tanking, based on a very simple notion of hitting things. Unlike a rogue, who starts with a full Energy bar and must manage combo points to properly exploit his or her full assortment of damaging abilities..."
Uhh rogue energy is only starts at 100. So two moves later and guess what you have to wait on a refill of energy. Warrior rage comes with every attack and counter attack and never stops until the fight is done.
wow 2 moves is sure makes for some crazzzy damage.
Kaphik Sep 12th 2008 5:38PM
Rogue energy is constantly regenerating. You use it, it comes back as long as you don't spend it again right away.
Rage is ONLY generated by hitting, or being hit. Using a special attack spends rage, and we must either be hit or hit something again with a normal attack to regain the rage.
I play both a rogue and warrior. Rogue energy is slightly easier to maintain than warrior rage, as the fight goes on. In the beginning of a fight, rogue energy is much easier to maintain.