The Care and Feeding of Warriors: A short intermission

"You never DPS. You're always tanking. So what if fury and arms aren't as good?"
I had a hard time answering this until I logged onto my old Horde server and talked to Elle, a friend of mine who plays a warrior. Elle has never played prot spec seriously, doesn't like tanking. A discussion of the state of the various trees made her unhappy, and she made the point that even if prot were capable of good DPS, it wasn't a playstyle she wanted for her warrior. This makes sense to me: she's always leveled as fury or arms, generally, and she's done so in a guild with at least two serious, dedicated tanks around most of the time. The thing about tanking is, you only need so many. In a guild that fields at best a 10 man raid by itself, two or three tanks is plenty.
With paladins, druids and DK's as well as warriors, that's four tanking classes, all of whom are expected to be viable for trash, offtanking and MT positions. Warriors are one of the most played classes in the game, so it's clear that with four tanking classes not all members of these classes are going to be tanking. And two of those classes can only DPS or tank, there's no healing DK or ranged caster DPS warriors.
So, even though I almost always tank, I want the class to retain its viability in other areas. I want fury and arms to work, and work well, and be fun and exciting for those players who choose to spec in them. I want a level 68 warrior in bad gear to be able to go to Northrend, pick a spec he or she likes, and level effectively in whatever style he or she chooses to do as long as reasonable intelligence and skill is displayed. I don't want arms or fury warriors to have to succeed despite of their talents.
Now, I don't believe the designers want that either. When I was younger, it was easier to go to the forums and make ridiculous and petulant posts about how angry I was that Intimidating Shout was being nerfed, or weapon speed normalization, or rage normalization (grrr) or what have you. And I certainly don't believe that the current state of arms and fury's talent trees in the beta is due to the designers deliberately wanting them to be bad trees, or have bad talents, and I wouldn't even go so far as to say they are bad trees. There's lots of good stuff, and a lot of it is still unfinished and not yet fully formed into a coherent whole for us to consider. I know that my level 70 draenei warrior was doing very well soloing the ghosts outside of Karazhan last night for lack of being able to go to Northrend with a heavy arms talent spec including Bladestorm. (For all its flaws and weaknesses, it can be a surprisingly fun ability.) The problem is, in part, cause by a perception of time crushing down on us.
A lot of the complaints on the forums come down to "Are we going to get fixed before launch?" and this is in part due to the history of the state warriors were in when TBC launched, rage starved and underwhelming. This time, at least, tanks will be in good shape going forth even if the last vestiges of warrior tanking supremacy are stripped away: sure, you won't be the default tank anymore, but you haven't been that for five mans for a long time now. Leveling to 80, you're going to be a very good option for tanking if you choose to go prot, and that's a step up in my opinion. (The effect it will have on raiding is a separate issue.) That, however, doesn't necessarily mean that warriors who want to play a fury or arms playstyle are going to be decent tanks for five mans (one of Blizzard's stated goals) either. The class is not in ruins, it's not awful, but it is much like the roof of the inn in Westfall, unfinished and not showing as much progress as we'd hope.
Since the warrior class is so populated, it is necessary for it to be well developed and fun in all three of its trees. Frankly, I'm sick to death of the 31 point arms talent dominating the tree. I leveled back in the pre-Maraudon days as an arms warrior, I tanked as arms using MS as my rage dump before Tactical Mastery increased its threat, I don't hate the ability. But I'm tired of it dominating the tree. I think what they're trying to do with arms is laudable, giving it more options, making it more about synergy. But the random chance factor of the tree has gotten so ridiculously bloated that it feels almost like the tree is at war with itself. But at least there's a direction clear in the design elements introduced so far. Fury doesn't even have that: the capstone talent will be awesome once you've assembled about 600 or so hit rating at 80. Leveling, each time you ding, the talent will get worse. Do we really want talents to feel like punishments as you level? How is that fun or engaging?
It's not a question of DPS, or a numbers pass. If Warrior DPS is low, it can be tuned up very easily/ If warrior playstyles are boring, or feel like more of the same, or don't reward you until you itemize heavily in endgame for them, then that's harder to fix and will have an effect on people while they level the class, which means that months down the line when I'm level 80 tanking in the Eye of Eternity, some new warrior off the boat to Northrend will still be finding himself disliking his talents as he levels. I want the game to be fun for that guy. In fact, I think how fun the game is for that guy is more important. And to be fair, the fun potential is there. Arms play right now is tantalizingly close to being new and different while still retaining the old standards. Honestly, with some tweak to make Bladestorm less passive in feel, and some reduction in RNG and a numbers pass so we can see what the DPS shakes out to, I think arms is poised to be competitive for high level play and fun for leveling/soloing as well.
Fury is also closer than you'd expect from the complaining. I won't pretend that I didn't find some of the changes to fury yesterday unpleasant, but I do think the tree is going to see an upswing before Patch 3.0.2 goes live. Frankly, the talents themselves are pretty solid, it's their current performace that's underwhelming, and that is squarely in the camp of 'can be adjusted upwards'. Yes, right now fury does less DPS, and does even less if you take the capstone talent until you've assembled a boatload of hit gear, which would be very hard for you to get unless you were raiding already, and that would be hard to justify without the gear that you need to raid to get. It's the old vicious circle from last expansion: the gear warriors needed to be competitive DPS didn't exist until 25 man raids, while everyone else was gearing up in 5 and 10 mans.
But I expect that Blizzard is paying attention: while not every beta build has been blissful for us, they've shown a great deal of concern for how the process is unfolding. The fact that all raids have 10 and 25 man settings, that heroics have noticeably better gear, and that the factions all seem to provide nice options for an up and coming warrior combined with the fact that up until now most of the focus of the beta process has been in catching bugs and smoothing the content means, at least to me, that fury is in a very unfinished state. Fury is all about raw DPS. Raw DPS is exactly what we're not really looking at yet.
It's important to all warriors, even tanking ones, that these two trees be in presentable shape at launch. Heck, I don't know many tanks who don't like to spec arms or fury every so often to go tear around in a BG or do some DPS in a raid or heroic. Even I do it from time to time. (Although I usually just hop on a different warrior for it... I have four I can play at any given time.) I remain hopeful that in the time we have left, warriors will continue to be looked at and adjusted.
Today's column was a touch on the contemplative side, I admit. I just found myself wanting to get away from thinking about things in a nuts and bolts, talents and skills way when everything changes from week to week anyway. Until its patched into live, nothing's set in stone. Next week, however, we're going to take a look at itemization for warriors: will it be hard to hit the defense cap? How much hit will I need at 80? What are the gear options from factions and dungeons so I can start raiding again? All of this, and the Runeblade of Demonstratable Power, which wins the 'as opposed to?' award.
Filed under: Warrior, Patches, Analysis / Opinion, Expansions, (Warrior) The Care and Feeding of Warriors, Wrath of the Lich King






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 1)
Heilig Sep 19th 2008 4:25PM
Runeblade of Hidden Rage?
Runeblade of Silent Fury?
Runeblade of Obvious Overcompensation?
zappo Sep 19th 2008 4:37PM
I think some people such as myself just feel a natural comradery towards others that play the class, even as a different spec. Even though I will never play a shadow priest again, I'm always happy to have one in a group and always buff them with IDS in passing.
My Paladin will always be protection (I think..) which is looking pretty awesome, but the complaints on the other two trees concerns me. I've played a tree to 70 and gotten bored with it before, only to find salvation in another tree which brings fresh new game play and basically "saved the class/character" in my eyes. I really hate having this feeling that my class is getting painted into a corner even though I myself am fine. Options are good, even if you don't ever plan on using them.
Naus Sep 19th 2008 4:38PM
lol dps warriors are all n00bz, l2tank!
Actually I never understood your guy's situation until I leveled a pali, mostly as ret. It really sucks to put your time in, and then get kicked out of a group by some no-talent hunter or warlock, for being 'off-spec'...
To me that's what needs to change, is this idea of dps warriors being off-spec. I don't know anything about playing a warrior, but I think that having near-rogue dps + being able to wear plate and OT is valuable just in and of itself...
Tcgjarhead Sep 19th 2008 4:44PM
Prot specs are currently doing more dps than Fury/Arms specs. But instead of buffing Fury/Arms blizz is going to nerf Prot dps making it less desirable to warriors wanting to do DPS.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=10043227296&pageNo=1&sid=2000#1
Tcgjarhead Sep 19th 2008 4:48PM
Not to mention plate itemization is still screwed up. Warriors will still be taking leather dps pieces instead of plate dps armor. And instead of fixing plate they just give us a talent (Armored to the Teeth) which pretty much says stay away from leather gear.
Heilig Sep 19th 2008 6:18PM
You have to understand where this is coming from though. Blizzard, in an effort to make it more fun to be prot, decided that instead of having threat modifiers on abilities, they would just let prot get more threat by increasing the DPS of the abilities.
One problem: Tanks have to be #1 on threat. So, if there are no modifiers, then the tanks MUST be the ones doing the most damage. If that were the case, no one would ever play Arms or Fury because if they were prot they would top the meters AND be able to tank. Who wouldn't want that?
So they CAN'T leave prot where it is, otherwise no one will play the other trees. Ergo, nerf prot. Drop the DPS and reinstitute the threat modifiers. It's the only way to balance the trees and the classes. If they just buff Fury and Arms, warrior DPS will destroy any other classes and they will just have to nerf them down the road anyway.
Threat generation in tanks is THE stat that matters most to all DPS classes. If you want prot to stay where it is, that's fine. But they will have to buff every other class and spec, and buff every single mob in the game to compensate. That is not the answer. prot's DPS has to come down, regardless of whether or not they buff arms and fury.
Braver Sep 19th 2008 4:54PM
Decisions...decisions. Tanking is going to be downright fun in WotLK, thats for sure. Soloing as Prot will be the way to go. Impale is just too good to pass up. Yet I am faced with the tough choice of choosing between Incite vs Armored to the Teeth. In the build below, I went with the former.
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=LAM00bZhxZVhtMg0zidIzsGo
Incite is great for your Heroic Strike rage dumping, but with the addition of Shockwave to the standard rotation, I dont find myself being maxed out with rage all the time. Thunderclap crits will be nice, but the damage isnt like it used to be when it was 100% bonus form ITC.
Essentially, I guess it comes down to raw STR (AP for skills) vs chance to crit. With Armed to the Teeth maxed and a WAR has 25000 armor (very doable are lvl 80), you are looking at an increase of 187 STR. This directly effects all of your skills, especially our favs Devistate and Shield Slam. This also helps TC and HS, though not as much as a crit, but it still helps.
I think I am going o try out Armored to the Teeth over Incite for a while and see where that takes me.
ash Sep 19th 2008 5:26PM
God, if only more pally's were like you. I, like you, want all specs to be fun, even if I only use one or two of the specs. But, going on the forums feels so much like stepping into a cesspool, it makes me wonder if any sane people play the class sometimes. Sometimes... well its not so good, but reading people like you makes me feel not so bad. I too, have a warrior, and while I have him specced prot, I also think all the trees should be fun and viable.
Shinken Sep 19th 2008 5:28PM
The warrior community just amazes me. You are weak initially but you scale into OP status very soon.
"warriors are doing low dmg.." hello gear dependence
You are perfectly itemized check out the malygos quest necks for tanking HHMMMMMM all of those stats rock for warriors but not druids or paladins
As prot you did more dps than druids in sunwell,now with the dmg buff you will do it sooner.
Warriors need more utility, not dmg.
tchernobyl Sep 19th 2008 6:27PM
And that's a problem that blizz is admittedly aware of, but slapping 15% to miss on yellow attacks on TG for example is not, at all, in any shape or form, the way to "hold us back".
A leveling warrior going up to TG will not have anywhere NEAR the hit nescessary to make titan's grip even viable, and it is near impossible to make up for it with level 70 gear *at* 70, not to mention 80, which seems to severely lack hit as well.
Warriors in naxx gear are not scaling at all, both our dps trees are so far under other classes it's laughable. We *do* need more DPS.
And utility? with trained shield slam, we can tank in off-specs. That's utility right there.
Heilig Sep 19th 2008 6:45PM
Are you high? Seriously, what are you on, cause I want some!
Prot DPS is devastate spam right now. They do NOT out-DPS bear druids if the bear druids put on their cat gear, which I assume is what you mean: Prot warriors in their DPS gear vs. bears in their kitty gear/form. If you are talking about bears and prot warriors in their tanking gear, you're not just high, you're living in another dimension. While warriors are gear dependent, saying that they do more damage than bears is just stupid.
As far as the tanking necks from malygos go, you're dead wrong there too. Gear has been homogenized. Warriors and paladins use the same gear now. Paladins might like a bit more block rating rather than hit rating since our threat is a bit more reactive than warriors, but overall we need to focus on mitigation and strength now, just like they do. Do a little research before posting instead of just repeating what you heard some guy say in trade chat.
Lór Sep 20th 2008 6:42AM
It's not that easy. Blizzard merged many specs to fulfill similar tasks and for that they had to combine items to be useful for many. Some are better for class x and somer are better for class y, but both can use them.
For warriors the biggest problem is the difference between Arms and Fury 1h and Fury 2H. Arms should be a viable raidspec, but needs less hit than fury1h/2h. That means gear must be balanced out for three different requirements. Just look at the Naxxramas Set. Only 2 items got Hit Rating. Not enough for a TG warrior, but more than enough for an Arms warrior.
The biggest mistake in the latest build was too remove Heroic Leap. Also this ability wasn't the most useful one, but it was damn FUN and that's what missing right now.
zone in Sep 19th 2008 5:51PM
I have been fortunate enough to get a key and have been testing out a fury spec warrior as well as a mage.
I havent done much yet but what i will say is that there is a great difference in playablity of the two. The mage is fun to play, however the warrior is hard work to build up and keep workable rage. titans grip seems a little under powered in straight comparison the mage is far better. The change from heroic leap to heroic fury in the last patch i think is a positive one as the leap wasnt really all it was hoped to be. Maybe it will come back again- fixed There are so many cool things that draw my attention in WOTLK for the positive side of things ( I absolutly love it) , so im livin hopeful that the fury warrior will find a raid spot when things go live
Mives Sep 19th 2008 9:38PM
I have spent considerable time on the PTR lately playing with Arms and Fury, trying to find out for myself where the DPS holes lie.
I tried testing the various builds on the lvl 80 target dummies in SW/IF (a fairly useless excercise being lvl 70), to the target dummies at Theramore (lvl 1 and an equally useless excercise). Finally I just went grinding at various higher lvl BC spots SMV, NS etc to get a good grasp on the new talents. From where I'm sitting, there is nothing wrong with our DPS. From a purely dps result, I found both Arms and Fury still put out good to great damage 95% of the time.
My greatest concern lies with the state of Arms currently. Blizz dev's are really pushing Arms to live in battle stance as we know, between Imp Rend, Imp Overpower, TfB and UA, that's ten talent points right there (if maxxed out) to get overpower to proc w/o dodges occurring. That's a huge level of investment on a RNG talent. So if a warrior invest's said amount of points into Arms, he WILL stay in Battle stance come hell or high water. The only problem I found is that Battle stance has no spell interupt and no in-combat charge. Stance dancing is the answer but becomes extremely awkward on fast cast abilities for interrupts. Sure we can bounce between Zerk and Battle, but with such a heavy investment for one talent, should we have too?
Feralis Sep 20th 2008 6:53AM
Well tbh
I am a tank for several years and a fine one, but every time I see a DPS warrior (any kind) going into raids, they die. Thus losing vital dps.
This kills a bit the overal fun. On our server people more like to do dps then go tanking, which is kinda stupid.
Unless Blizzard gives DPS warriors talents to survive but also a vital role in raids, then I would say spec to tank. Get ye bum into some uses. And also, it might cost several keyboards a year for being a tank, because a tank is allways fighting for aggro to stay on top of the damage dealing noobs.
But that is my penny added, as a experience tank.
niko Sep 21st 2008 12:50AM
If what you say is true, you must just have some sorry DPS warriors, then.
Having plate makes us more hardy than a rogue or enhance shammy, so survivability is pretty good for a melee class... Perhaps some nubs are catching some cleaves instead of getting behind the boss, eh?
I've seen more lazy heals going to melee dps than any other group, so perhaps your healers could stand a good talking to as well. I've seen more of a "eff those melee dpsers" from healers, claiming that somehow we make more mistakes, and thus need more healing, but the truth is that we are prone to get hit.. Keep up with teh haelz!
AngryT Sep 24th 2008 9:45PM
Well half the comments here are pretty week. The biggest flaw of a dps warrior is their lack of a threat dump. I rolled a Ms warrior thru Hyjal and BT and for about every boss fight i had the Vashj Trinket equipped and the one from COT rep and i still had threat problems. This article and some of the above comments saying how dps warriors are a waste for raid dps ? Let me think i believe of all melee classes our AOE is most superior both arms and fury. A Ms Slamming warrior with Bloodfrenzy in BT and Sunwell should should push ATLEAST 1500 dps with bloodfrenzy a warrior can add more then 2500 raid dps on SINGLE target. Myself i'm excited to start playing my Arms warrior when it comes out. The 2 specs i've figured is a deep arms (51/20/0) thats built around slam a sweet improved mortal strike and crazy overpowers and NO stances crapping only battle. Second fury (26/45/0) with just go grab sword spec and with 2 slow weopons ?!?!?!?! you want rage ? u want crazy quad extra attacks ? i'm excited and people who flame why ? tanks doing mad dps, sweet atleast it might be fun to tank more then two things without putting on shield block gear. Plate dps gear being crap ? it always has been but any self respecting warrior still wears plate and hey atleast we wont have to worry about threat.