Officers' Quarters: Coup d'etat
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.Guild leaders aren't always the most popular people in a guild. Sometimes they have to make the tough choices for the good of the organization, and that can lead to hard feelings. But then there is the guild leader that members hate for just about every reason you can hate someone. One reader wants to know how to get rid of this guy once and for all.
Hey, Scott,
I joined a great casual raiding guild about 2 months ago at the point where we were putting Kara on farm and moving on to Mags, Gruul and places beyond. Now we're 2/6 SSC and 2/4 TK, I'm class lead for my class, have full T4 and one piece of T5, and we're progressing steadily.
But.
The GM is a [penis].
All the officers are great, most of the members are great, the guild is good, the community is good . . . it's just the one guy who behaves as though the guild is his own private fiefdom that's the problem. Worse, although he's got 4 or 5 toons at 70, he's bad at all of them. He's just not a good player. Oh, and his sense of humor is made of FAIL.
There's history to the guild that I'm not privy to -- and don't really care about -- I'm interested in coping strategies to mitigate the harm he does, and wonder if there's any good ways to get someone like him to step aside. Not that anyone sane would take the job.
Cheers,
Oh, The Drama!
Wow, OTD, I can practically feel the burning fury of your hatred through my monitor. Before we get all crazy here and talk about how to bring down your mighty leader, let's try to put things into perspective.
You say you don't know the history and you don't care, but for some guilds the history can mean a lot. You don't know what your guild leader has been through or what he's had to do to position the guild to succeed. It may be unlikely if all that you say is true about him, but he could have been instrumental in putting together a great team of players to tackle all the content that you are enjoying.
There's a vast difference between being good as a player and being good as a leader. The two talents often intersect, because a good leader wants to set the example of how to play well, but someone can be a naturally gifted leader and still suck at raiding.
You say he acts like a medieval lord. I wish I had some examples to go by here (in fact I requested some from OTD, but he wasn't able to get back to me in time). Is it a matter of playing favorites, or ruling by fear, or constantly changing the rules to suit his moods? Those are all great examples of bad leadership.
But if you mean that in his guild his word is law, it isn't necessarily bad as long as he's got a strict set of rules that he uses to govern. Considering the time and effort most GLs devote to their guild, they deserve to be able to put the smack down on some fools when it's required.
As for his sense of humor, well, that's obviously a personal preference.
I guess overall I'm just baffled how a GL like the one you describe could have managed to put together such a great officer core and create a successful guild. Again, that's the unknown history coming into play. So before you go a step farther, I highly recommend asking some questions about how this all happened.
Now if it turns out this guy just bought the charter and then sat back while all the officers did the real work, henceforth using the position purely to intimidate and annoy, then you've got a genuine problem on your hands. Then it may be time for the coup d'etat.
Overthrowing your GL isn't something you can undertake by yourself. To do this, you'll need the support of the membership and at least a majority of the officers. While you can rally people against your GL, it's better to rally them for someone else.
So find out which officer is the one doing most of the real work. Now use that information to start your campaign. Be subtle at first. Make comments like "Thanks for putting this together, [officer]!" at the end of a raid, or "You know, I can't believe how much [officer] does for the guild" in a private conversation. Your job here is to make sure everyone knows who's really putting in all the effort, who's indispensable.
You've made the soil fertile; now plant some seeds of doubt about the GL himself. Ask some "innocent" questions like, "Why do you think [guild leader] made that decision?" and "Do you agree with what [guild leader] did there?"
Now, like Lady Macbeth, approach in private this officer who's really making the magic happen. Tell him that he deserves to be the guild leader. If this officer is already doing the work, he's actually suffering the burden already without reaping the privileges. Make it clear that it's not just a matter of flattering his or her ego -- you're genuinely concerned about the long-term welfare of the guild.
This officer probably won't go for it right away, but this is where your seeds will ripen into fruit. Tell him or her to ask around the guild and see if other people share your concerns. If you've done your job well, they do. And it sounds like even if you haven't, they might have become concerned all on their own.
If the current guild leader engages in a particularly acute episode of jackassery during this time, use it to your advantage. Hold it up as a shining example of the dark vortex the guild will fall into with this guy at the helm. Let it add a sense of urgency to the proceedings.
From here, events are mostly out of your control. You've given your officer the nudge. You can give him or her more nudges, and perhaps speak with other sympathetic officers about it. You can continue to rally the membership and ask them to speak with the officers, too. But ultimately the coup has to come from the officers.
If they drag their feet, your last resort would be to quit the guild. You're a class leader, so you're obviously a talented player and valued part of the raiding team. When you do so, let no one doubt that the reason you're leaving is the guild leader. If that doesn't get people's attention, nothing will.
I don't normally condone this type of drama, but you're asking me how to make this happen for the good of what seems to be a solid guild, so I'm giving you my best advice. Hopefully the fallout will be that the officers finally decide to act and everything can settle down after that.
Of course, if things are as bad as you say, you may not have to engage in such elaborate Machiavellian politics. It could just come down to common sense. All it might take is one person being the first to speak up.
Has anyone out there successfully done something like this? How did you go about it?
/salute
Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)






Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
Eddy Sep 22nd 2008 11:15AM
This sounds like its about ready to go through the Good Player Exodus I've seen and generally advocated several times over my wow career, on different servers and circumstances. This happens when one officer or member gets more popular than a waning guild leader (and in most cases, is a much better raid leader). This person leaves, takes the core players that aren't personal friends of the leader, and eventually the old guild capsizes, often ending up with many of the same leaders in the new guild. The first time I saw this happen, the leader was a bit of a blowhard who fancied himself a PVP master and was never around to lead raids, and a charismatic if crazy raidleader took the whole guild. Eventually all the leadership but the main leader had joined the new guild, and it pretty much lasted until that guild leader's mom died and he pretty much quit. While it lasted, it was pretty good, we managed to salvage most of the guild.
When I went through it most recently, it was a lot rockier. The charismatic guy didn't grab quite so many people as he tried to pug from other guilds, one of the main tanks quit and then went Balance, and the other ended up cleaning out his guildbank and transferring servers. Eventually the former leader of that guild just up and quit, and the members are all scattered everywhere.
Ktok Sep 22nd 2008 11:52AM
What's funny is that my guild has gone through three similar happenings over the five years (and three MMOs) that it's been around. However, in our case, it's been the jerks and ***holes that have tried to topple my leadership... and it's been their new guilds that have died, gasping for breath, while my guild soldiers on toward great things.
In most cases, the group of trouble makers were already people who I had considered kicking out, and were usually stirred up by someone who I had already gotten complaints about from other guild leaders for their behavior when dealing with other guilds.
With regard to the article though, I'm not sure what to make of the guild leader in question. I've been called a tyrant before myself for kicking out people who were abusive to other guild members. Their friend(s) left in the guild, of course, hated me for it... but their blatant breaking of guild conduct policies left me no choice.
Having been there and done that for five years now, I'm very reluctant to judge this guild leader without knowing exactly what went down. Way too often, we are blamed for simply keeping the peace.
Jane Gray Sep 22nd 2008 2:27PM
Nothing he says has implied that anyone other than himself has a problem with this guy.
It looks to be a grin and bear it situation. The advice you are giving him could very easily just destroy a guild filled with people who are actually happy with it.
Guilds can do quite well even with a GL that's himself a terrible player (one of the best guilds on my server definitely has a GM that's terrible).
You disliking the guy is not enough justification for a coup.
Naix Sep 22nd 2008 11:15AM
I was defended by the wall of text. There can't be this much info needed for a solution.
There is two kinds of guilds...
Casual guilds who run Kara, ZA, and whatever else. Who don't care if they wipe and have a good time doing it.
Hardcore guilds who demand you run Kara, ZA, and whatever else. With GL who go crazy on vent and want to talk smack.
I have been in both and usually I can't stand the GL of the hardcore.
Casual > Hardcore
Braundo Sep 22nd 2008 2:09PM
I agree with you somewhat, but wiping over and over in Kara/ZA gets really old when it's for trivial stuff that is entirely avoidable (Aran flame wreaths, bombs on Jan'alai). There are plenty of more serious guilds that are not hardcore and demanding, but at least are comprised of players who pay enough attention not to wipe the raid from stuff like that.
In other words, nice false dichotomy there.
Smurk Sep 22nd 2008 11:16AM
I'd probably side with the guy whose sense of humor doesn't deliver the phrase "made of fail."
JPN Sep 22nd 2008 11:23AM
Agreed.
Madeliefje Sep 22nd 2008 11:16AM
great post, but what if the Microcosmos will get upset...(people who do history/english literature, shakespeare mostly) will understand
:D
ps: luv teh picture!
Barish Sep 22nd 2008 11:16AM
You can petition a GM to change GuildLeadership.
I did it once because our previous GuildLeader was offline for a month.
It happened without many questions.
Jacob Parsons Sep 22nd 2008 11:18AM
I don't think it was right of you to offer this suggestion based on one side of the argument. You concede that it's Machiavellian to use this strategy, yet you hardly hold back at all. In all honesty, how can you expect to put a better GM in place when the only methods you're using to do so are underhanded and deceitful? As I work my way through the third book of the Inheritance cycle (the sequels to Eragon, about the boy who becomes a legendary Dragon Rider), time and time again I run into the motif of someone refusing to use underhanded tactics, not because the result would be evil, but because the methods would be. The book mentions that the villain believes he is totally justified, but due to his methods, he has become evil. The hero, then, must ensure that he never resorts to those same strategies, lest he only replace the villain as someone equally evil.
My way to replace the GM would be to discuss it with the GM personally. If the GM gets angry and overreacts, or if you are sure (and have history to prove it) that the GM will just kick you if you even approach the topic, then talk to the officers and the GM at the same time. Do not try to win the officers onto your side before the discussion, let it be spontaneous but have everyone there and willing to talk. If there really have been abuses of power or other reasons to remove the GM, then the majority of the people in that conversation will agree, and perhaps the GM and an officer could swap places, or become co-GMs.
Why choose my method over the other? Because my method includes a way for the GM to redeem himself/herself. The GM can say, "Oh, wow, you're right. I've been a jerk to the guild. How about we promote xxxxxx to be a co-GM with me and keep me in check, and I'll try to tone it down a bit too." With the other way, you end up with the ex-GM saying, "I'll get you all back! I will!" That person will then spend the rest of their time on that server (short lived though it is likely to be) undermining your efforts any time possible. You will make more enemies than friends, and your guild will be gone shortly thereafter.
For the love of God, don't let a breakdown of communication be the end of a guild. It's far too common and far too easy to prevent.
Tanglebones Sep 22nd 2008 11:41AM
Taking advice on how to do real life (or WoW life) relationships from an obviously very idealistic storybook seems ill advised at best. Machiavellian politics work (at least most of the time, when done skillfully and subtly). Sitting everyone down to have a sharing circle does not. And not talking to other officers beforehand is the worst possible strategy. Here's what happens in this situation:
Frustrated Officer: Okay guys, officer meeting.
(Several minutes/hours/days pass while we wait for all/most officers to assemble)
Frustrated Officer: GL, you have some problems, and these are them (lists problems). And i think i speak for most people here.
(awkward silence)
GL: Please don't try and start drama, Frustrated Officer.
Frustrated Officer: /gquit.
The point is, nothing is solved.
FireStar Sep 22nd 2008 11:47AM
I agree with you to a degree. Let it be spontaneous, but you better do your homework first and give good examples and arguments. Most of the time it isn't what you say, but how you say it.
I also agree with the idea of talking to the GM for what you mentioned about him not realizing he's "been a jerk to the guild". It's amazing how people can change if you can intelligently and tactfully talk to someone. You may not like him, but sometimes that can change too. I've had several people that i didn't like, but after discussing it with them i've seen redeeming qualities in them and changed My mind.
Kevin Sep 26th 2008 7:24PM
Failure, due to referencing a book that is basically the bastardization of Dragonlance, Star Wars, and The End of Faith rolled into one. Seriously, read the book while watching Star Wars and see how many characters you pick out. I'm surprised he didn't have "Eragon, I am your brother" in there ffs.
Back to the OP, although I might be reading too much into this, I think based on the evidence shown it's just straight personal dislike. You didn't give even one begrudged good quality, so your almost certainly lying, either to us or to yourself. If he hadn't done anything right then someone other than you would have done something about it before now. And if your guild hasn't due to inertia, let it be, not like putting up with a bad sense of humor is going to kill you. Hell put him on mute if he doesn't run the raids, and if he does then your missing at least one good thing about him right there!
Aussie Sep 23rd 2008 1:08AM
This is considerably better advice than the article.
Mindbasher Sep 24th 2008 6:41PM
Jacob Parsons thinks you should line up a row of unicorns and fart rainbows and moonbeams at your GL until he gets. I'd suggest ignoring that as he pulled them out of a fantasy novel it's an allegory, not a logical argument.
Wow is small stakes politics and if you personally think the guy is a [penis] and other people think so too, the article DOES have a common way these things do work out in a raiding guild.
If someone doesn't actually think the guy is a dick, and sees this coup going on, but thinks you folks have valid concerns, he may get the GL to step aside, but until then, go on with the coup my friend, it could save your guild. And frankly, if you don't openly advocate it, they'll probably think it was the officer, not you, if you can manage to not brag about it.
Random Cow Sep 22nd 2008 11:51AM
Better to be upfront about concerns, not plotting and scheming in the shadows. Don't follow the mutiny advice given in this article, you will be less deserving of the loyalty you need in order to lead effectively.
Ktok Sep 22nd 2008 11:58AM
Well said...
Be open, and be honest... and do so in *private*, not in guild chat for the world to see. Also, be polite, and open to the possibility that your view of how things are may be wrong.
Adults shouldn't have to scheme to overthrow leadership in a video game. Seeing them do so is just sad.
Kothmia Sep 22nd 2008 11:46AM
I know this situation very well, as I was just part of a similar situation. It was a "casual family" guild that had been around almost as long as the server, but the guild leader was a jerk. The final straw was when we were in the middle of a Kara run, and he pulled the MT into his office on vent, then did the same to me. He lied to me and the guild saying he had screenshots of something I'd said to someone else (He didn't). I decided I'd had enough, and /gquit. He joined the raid, booted me from it, and banned me from vent. I think everyone from the raid group has since left and joined our new guild, but the OT.
We're all a LOT happier now, and have progressed farther than the old guild has. They're having issues keeping a single raid group going.
Sometimes, it just takes change.
zappo Sep 22nd 2008 11:46AM
"his sense of humor is made of FAIL."
Yeah, I don't know why, but that that phrase really puts me off. I'm more apt to believe that this guy just has a personal problem with the GL, and that most people may be fine with him. I'd rather have a person who is a good guild leader and a bad player, than a good player and a bad leader.
I don't agree with the advice of this column AT ALL. "Plant the seeds of doubt?" Yeah, no hurt feelings or drama will result from that line of thinking.
I'm a simple man. I like pie. When I think someone is an ass, I say "you're an ass". Sooner or later I'll be drunk on vent and it will all come out anyway. Go for the throat. If you got a problem, get it out in the open and try to resolve it. If you still have issues and don't want to listen to the guild leader, put him on ignore.
I have this feeling that if most people had a problem with the guild leader, it would have already had a mass exodus into a reformed guild. Yet that hasn't happened. Hmm... mysterious.
soonerwolf Sep 22nd 2008 11:50AM
I was in a guild where the leader initially gave authority to the officers to act as co-guild leaders, however when they did so, he brought down the hammer.
It finally got to a point where whenever we'd point out an issue where he made a mistake, he outright accused us of back-biting and plotting to take over the guild.
We finally had enough and left to form our own guild. We didn't actively recruit away from our old guild, but we did let it be known that anyone who wanted to join us was welcome to.
Thus far, we did pretty well. At the time of the split, we had Kara on farm, and had a few Gruul takedowns. After the split we got Gruul and Mags on farm, and was about to venture into SSC when summer vacations plus Wrath Apathy hit hard and fast.
A guild leader who is reasonable and listens is always great, but when they get paranoid or dictatorial for no reason, I feel it's time for them or you to move on.