Forum post of the day: Honor, glory, and coercion
by Amanda Dean 
Sep 26th 2008 at 9:00AM
This may come as a big surprise, but not everyone likes to do Arenas. Even some who very much enjoy Battleground play, are not enthralled with the small-scale and highly-competitive arena environment. I'm of the opinion that if you don't enjoy the arena, you probably shouldn't do it. Sasquach of Bahazzar is with me on this one. Like me, he enjoys arenas and is not partial to the PvE game. Sporting a 2300 rating for Season Three, he's looking forward to doing arena matches in wrath.
The original poster vented his frustration that all PvP gear has an arena requirement on the test realm. Though Battlegrounds and Arenas are disparate systems with divergent goals and playstyle, Blizzard is putting rating requirements on all PvP gear. Even playing battleground after battleground, players will have to do arenas in order to don any PvP gear.
He feels that Blizzard is forcing players to do arenas, and many responders agreed. Muffy of Doomhammer agreed, she feels that Blizzard has "abandoned" battleground play in favor of arenas. Attuny of Gorgonnash believes that Blizzard will go ahead and implement the rating requirement on all gear. Folks who ordinarily avoid arenas will give them a go and quickly get frustrated. As scores get lower more folks will get frustrated and the effects will be felt throughout the arena ranks.
Some responders noted that there's no actual coercion going on. Players can chose not to PvP or not to seek out PvP rewards if they are not interested in doing the arenas. Blizzard isn't really forcing players to do anything they don't want to do.
Filed under: Analysis / Opinion, Forums, Battlegrounds, Arena, Forum Post of the Day
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 8)
Celton Sep 26th 2008 9:06AM
I think they should either keep the arena requirements or dramatically raise the bg requirements. You shouldn't be able to just stand in a battleground for a day and never cast a spell once and then go get t6 equivalent gear for it.
Naix Sep 26th 2008 9:29AM
I agree there should be some better triggers in place to keep players from just standing around doing nothing. But the gear needs to be in the server progression range of the raid instances. If the gear is not at least somewhat comparable you would see raiders rocking the BGs and Arenas. This is a delicate balancing act for Blizzard.
Nick S Sep 26th 2008 9:54AM
I continue to believe that the sets should be as divergent as possible - stamina, resilience, and other survival-related stats on PvP gear, and DPS stats on PvE gear. When a PvP weapon is the best choice for raiders by leaps and bounds, the system is flawed.
Ideally, I'd like very top-end PvP gear to have the same DPS stats as entry-level (read: Naxx) PvE gear, and very top-end PvE gear have similar (minus resilience) survival stats to entry-level PvP gear.
What that change will mean is that people who want to work hard at PvP can still do PvE, but (and here's what's crucial) *not as well as people who have been working hard at PvE.* And vice-versa, though that's been the case for a while now.
As for requiring Arena ratings, well... WTB BG ratings, as always.
Blarghh Sep 26th 2008 10:04AM
There are three tiers of PVP gear. The entry-level blue stuff doesn't have ratings requirements, it simply requires arena points in addition to honor. I'm ambivalent about this. On the one hand, it forces people to be active to earn their gear, at least in the arena. On the other hand, it funnels all people who want PVP gear through the arena system, whether they want to or not.
What's wrong with battlegrounds? Why must everyone participate in the arena to get PVP gear? What about people who want to PVP in Wintergrasp or battlegrounds but either don't, can't or won't join an arena team? Some of us are quite happy with non-arena PVP, and find the arena to be so focused and competitive that it's not at all fun. Blizzard has worked hard to make many areas of the game fun and optional. Why this regression?
Celton Sep 26th 2008 10:30AM
The arena gear with rating requirements is appropriately difficult to get. Props to anyone who has it. But you shouldn't be able to lose 10 arena matches a week and get gear (good gear too). And you shouldn't be able to lose all of your BGs and get gear. There is no aspect of PVE that lets you lose and die over and over again and still get gear. Its insane that you can just keep losing and still get tier 5 equivalent gear with no penalty (repair costs).
anonymoose Sep 26th 2008 10:41AM
Celton I think you are completely misguided. As a SWP raider I can assure you that for nearly all classes and specs, Merc gear is woefully inadequate for raiding MH, BT, and SWP in. The current system for accruing the gear is actually fine, and in most battle groups requires a significant time invesment--active participation ensures more rapid acquisition of the gear.
The lack of important stats needed for raid success prohibits nearly all classes and specs from using pvp gear for raiding. I think it's a delightful myth that this is not the case. As someone with a bank overflowing with purples for both my main and off specs, honestly I don't care about your BG attained merc gear. Other people having purples doesn't diminish me. Sadly, I wish my fellow raiders realized this as well.
I personally dislike Arena and enjoy BGs as a side activity. No one should be forced to participate in Arena in order to secure the bottom end pvp gear.
Clem Sep 26th 2008 10:42AM
“I think they should either keep the arena requirements or dramatically raise the bg requirements. You shouldn't be able to just stand in a battleground for a day and never cast a spell once and then go get t6 equivalent gear for it.”
Look: you can get away with that in AV. In the other battlegrounds, you cannot. If you AKF in AB, WSG, or EOTS you are easy to spot, and will be reported.
This idea that you can afk your way to S2 is just not true. You need a combination of all 4 BGs tokens to get all the S2 and Guardian gear. You can spend something like 200,000 honor to get all that.
There is no way possible to afk to all of that. It simply cannot be done. Those who are in the “BS PVP” gear have spent a lot of time and effort to get it. Kind of like raiding. It is somewhat easier (and cheaper) than raiding, but still requiring a huge investment (for gear that is inferior to raiding or arena gear).
anonymoose Sep 26th 2008 10:50AM
OK, so which is it Celton--does pvp give you T5 or T6. Honestly I think you are just spouting some sort of misinformation you've heard elsewhere. And you sound suspiciously like one of those raiders who feels that other people having purples somehow diminishes you.
Let's be clear about this--Rage Winterloot & Shade of Lootkama are pve welfare. Let's also be clear that dying repeatedly in T6 content DOES give you rewards in the form of rep. If you are a JC it gives you easy access to epic gem patterns at a deeply discounted price, and in BT it gives you access to SR gear patterns and class specific trinkets.
Additionally, if raiders are going to continue to cry about others having purples (and I am a raider who does not really give a rat's @$$ about folks in pvp gear and how they got their gear), then I think it would be important to require that all pve gear worn in pvp environments should cease to function. No more rogues with glaives, no more me with my SSC resilience ring cruising around BGs getting unfair advantage.
And while we are at it--let's remove the ability to trade in Tier tokens for pvp gear. Because fair is fair, right?
Naix Sep 26th 2008 10:59AM
@anonymoose
Well said.
anonymoose Sep 26th 2008 11:31AM
"The fact is, as a fresh 70, its far easier to gear up for Kara and beyond by doing BGs and Arena than it is by doing 5-mans, heroics, and even Kara, where you have to deal with random drops and rolls and long non-interrupted playtime (not to mention, actually playing and succeeding and not just standing around and losing)."
I see, because Kara is serious business right? Who cares? Bliz already nerfed access into Kara as well as heroics, and the content in both. Why are you so worried about the gear people enter Kara with?
"Some of the PVP gear is appropriately difficult to get, like the weapon and the s4 set pieces. But the belt, the gloves and some of the other pieces are way too easy to get. Why would anyone serious about gearing up run any PVE instance before getting those pieces? "
Because the stats on the pvp belt, gloves and generic 'some of the other pieces' are woefully inadequate for proper gearing for raiding. If you had common sense and pve progressional experience I think you would realize this. I suspect you lack in both.
"The ease of getting some of the PVP gear is making a large portion of the rest of the game pointless (eveything below Kara, or even SSC)."
What are you talking about? If you are finding that pre-xpac it does seem there are fewer people running heroics and Kara and this is somehow impeding your "progress", welcome to pre-xpansion wow. Pvp has nothing to do with that--most people recognize that the xpac is coming and honor grinding, etc is dropping off. Lighten up.
I also bristle at you lumping both Kara and SSC into the same category--they are not the same thing, nor is the gear even the same. Likewise, if you are just now deciding to raid and finding it frustrating that there aren't more SSC guilds, don't blame pvp for that.
" It should be just as easy (or difficult) to gear up by only doing PVE as it is gearing up by only doing BGs and arenas."
They are separate aspects of a single game, and one doesn't have to diminish the other. But as long as you are going to complain that pvp is ruining pve, I would also suggest that pve gear be rendered unusuable in BGs and Arenas (goodbye glaives!), and likewise why don't we require that everyone in pvp has to use a pvp mount. Leave your Amani war bear in the bank please.
Celton Sep 26th 2008 12:34PM
I admit, things are probably a little different for me because I'm a holy paladin. The stats on the season 4 belt is clearly better for PVE than anything you can get outside of 25-mans and its much easier to get too. Obviously, things are different for a tank and probably for other classes as well, especially since I have a ton of Mp5 and I need the spell crit. Obviously, if you're going to run Sunwell or BT, you need proper PVE gear. But I'm talking about fresh 70s who are first looking into getting into 25-mans. They're going to gear up in PVP, not in PVE if they want to be more efficient.
My armory is HolyCelton on Garithos. I have 1950 healing. I'm wearing three pieces of PVP gear because it's just better for me.
Celton Sep 26th 2008 1:31PM
All right, you've convinced me that Blizzard knows what they're doing.
1. The S4 belt, gloves, boot and neck ARE too easy to get, but its not like they came out when BC launched. Blizzard wants to give out epics now so people can experience the BC content before Wrath launches. You can't complain about that.
2. It's only 4 pieces of gear. You still have to fill out the rest of your suit. If you fill out everything else with season 2 and season 3 pvp gear, you probably won't do too well in a PVE raid. You still have to fill most of your slots with PVE gear.
So while yes I think those 4 S4 pieces are too easy to get compared to PVE gear for those slots, I don't think that's a problem. I'm sure they'll handle things similiarly in Wrath.
zlickrick Sep 26th 2008 2:47PM
This change will hurt me a lot.
I could be described as a "casual" so when I do find time to play WoW I like to PvP because it takes less than 3 minutes from login to get up and running. And the rewards were enough to keep me dedicated to the game for months.
I dont have the set time or schedule to create an Arena team and run 10 matches a week to sustain some magical Arena rating. I have no interest in forming a "team" or paying for a charter to have it turn around and be dismantled because I wasn't able to login for a few days.
I understand that Blizzard may be doing this to prevent the AFK crowd from attaining PVP gear, but they are also giving the stiff arm to the casual bunch who dont have the time or effort to maintain the requirements that Arena competition demands.
So for me, if this stays into endgame I will most likely be finding a new game, period.
Raya Sep 26th 2008 4:54PM
Lets be honest. Epic pvp gear is NOT T5 or T6 pve equivelent gear, it is just not good enough for kara, ZA, and up. It will however get you into heroic 5 mans which is what I did. There are a few stuff that will last you longer like the S4 helm and S3 weapon maybe even the belt and necklace.
BlizzardsPowerTrip Sep 27th 2008 1:03AM
Blizzard having a bug up their butts about WoW becoming an e-sport has driven bad decisions like balancing around pvp vs pve.
This is just another bad decision to placate some ass hat with power at blizzard.
Lerxst Sep 29th 2008 9:38AM
I disagree. As a player who doesn't generally have time for 6 hours of raiding a night with a small chance of getting a usable drop for whatever class I'm playing, I enjoy being able to pop into a battleground and know that in a few weeks I'll be able to purchase an upgrade.
As it is, it's already difficult enough to get the honour required, not to mention all the various marks (I'm in a battlegroup where we routinely lose everything but AV on the Alliance side). Perhaps difficult is the wrong word, as really it's just time-consuming.
I've never afk'd my way through a battleground, and I've been playing since before there were battlegrounds. I don't enjoy the idea of being punished because some people are lazy and unwilling to put the effort into actually playing the game.
If anything, the reporting system should be improved. A majority rules kick vote would be nice, like many online shooters feature. Unfortunately, like everything else in WoW, it would eventually end up being abused.
TobiasX Sep 26th 2008 9:08AM
Step 1. Stop throwing old gladiator sets into battlegrounds.
Step 2. Stop giving honor for victory to players who haven't killed at least 1 player / npc.
Step 3. Create battleground PvP sets with set bonuses based on the number of bases you control.
Raid Tokens for Raiding sets.
Arena points for Arena sets.
Honor for Battleground sets.
Problem solved.
Jon Sep 26th 2008 9:13AM
I agree wholeheartedly - what Is wrong with the current system?
Honor gear for Battlegrounds, arena gear for arenas.
I don't enjoy arenas at all, but I do like battlegrounds. It sounds like I'll have no reason to enter a BG in wrath at all - and that's kind of sad :-\
Jon Sep 26th 2008 9:14AM
I agree wholeheartedly - what Is wrong with the current system?
Honor gear for Battlegrounds, arena gear for arenas.
I don't enjoy arenas at all, but I do like battlegrounds. It sounds like I'll have no reason to enter a BG in wrath at all - and that's kind of sad :-\
Piper Sep 26th 2008 9:18AM
This.
I'm an avid Battlegrounder myself, and I find myself wishing so much that I could have a (possibly upgradable), completely unique armor set. We all look the same - raiders look like gladiators look like Battlegrounders. It pisses me off that I have to do something that I think is a waste of time and energy to be able to play a part of the game that I love.
Give us shiny Grand Marshal and High Warlord sets for Battlegrounds, plz.