Officers' Quarters: Friends or content
by Scott Andrews 
Sep 29th 2008 at 1:00PM
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.It's the constant dilemma of the casual guild member. You love the people in the guild, but you know you're going to miss all or most of the raiding experience. It's a particularly poignant decision when you're an officer in a casual guild. That's what one reader is facing this week.
Hi, Scott.
I have been in a wonderful casual guild for almost a year now. And have been promoted to an officer. I love all of officers/people in my guild and generally have a good time with them and try to organize casual events and things to do. We have been attempting Kara recently, but I don't think we will progress past the 2nd boss before Wrath comes out; however, we are not a raiding guild by any means and I can't really stress that enough.
Over the last few months I have started to out-gear a lot of people in the guild and have been considering moving just my 70 to a guild that only raids on weekends so I have a chance to explore some new content before it becomes obsolete. Recently I filled a gap in a Kara guild and after the run was asked to join. This guild would only really need me for weekend Kara runs and maybe Mags.
Is it fair for one of my alts (which I am trying to level for Wrath) to take over my officer position in my guild and only use my current 70 for raiding in the new guild, and to help out when needed?
My current GM seemed a little upset about the notion making it sound like I'm abandoning the guild and using them to gear up and leave (although I geared mostly from pugs) because they just started Kara (I was the one organizing it). However, I have every intention of helping out the guild with Kara anyway I can even though my only 70 is not in that guild anymore.
I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place at the moment. I don't know if what I'm asking from the other guild leaders sounds reasonable or if I'm just being silly. I don't want to press to many buttons as I have every intention of leveling with this guild when the expansion comes out.
Thanks for your time,
[Anonymous]
You're not the only one who's had to make this decision. It's a frequent issue that many, many Warcraft players have faced over the years. After all, most players start in casual guilds.
When you don't know what you're missing, it's easy to sit back and say, "I love my guildmates and I'm not going anywhere." But now you've had a taste of what successful raiding is like. You've seen something of what WoW's raids have to offer, and you want to see more.
I think you did the right thing by speaking to your guild leader before you made the decision. While I don't blame your guild leader for being upset, he or she should still appreciate your honesty and openness.
You have to look at the situation from your GL's point of view, though. You are probably one of the guild's better players, and certainly one of the more motivated officers if you're putting the raids together. Now, while you guys have just gotten your Kara runs off the ground, the man behind it is talking about leaving.
I know your intentions are good, but there really isn't much you can do to help out with Kara runs if your raid ID belongs to another guild. And offering your non-70 alt as an officer in your guild is a bit of an insult.
The bottom line is this: You need to decide what you value more, your guild or your gaming experience. Right now, with only six weeks till Wrath, I'd stay stick it out till 80. Try to get people motivated to succeed in Kara. There's no reason you guys can't beat Moroes and a number of other bosses in the next few weeks.
In the meantime, you could possibly attend the raids that the other guild runs that your guild doesn't run, like Magtheridon.
Eventually, however, you're going to face this decision again. There's no achievement for sticking with a guild even though you can't even get a five-player dungeon going.
But before you get there, if you like your guild as much as you say, why not try to get ten people to commit to casual raiding in Wrath? Ten people is a lot more manageable than 25, and that's all it takes to see all the content the expansion has to offer (eventually).
Use some early victories in Kara now to build momentum for hitting Naxx at 80. You may not be the only one who wants more raiding once you get a taste for it!
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters! For more WoW Insider gameplay columns, click here.Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 3)
BrownCow Sep 29th 2008 1:17PM
I don't understand why someone "HAS" to join another guild to be a 'fill-in." If this other guild is solely going use this dude to fill-in on weekends, just stay under your current guild tag. No ones skills are going to improve just because they begin wearing a raiding guilds .
Also, I have gone thru this dilemma before also. The bottom line imo is what is going to make you happy the most to feel like you getting most for your $15/mo. Hell, Vent is free and you could hang out with friends that way. We typically play this game for achievements and those achievements come in the form of loot and content progression (PvP titles also).
cudgel Sep 29th 2008 1:33PM
Actually, I'm pretty sure whoever hosts the vent server is paying for it. Thank them.
gridwerk Sep 29th 2008 1:53PM
I think it is less having to do with the tabard you wear but more-so having access to all the names on the guilds roster. I was in a small but friendly guild in Quel'dorei which was great for getting to 70 because there were people to chat with while slogging through the grinds. When I got to 70, though, everything changed. As gear became important and raids were the location of the gear, the rag-tag group of 50-69's that were great allies in the beginning became a hinderance to my playing enjoyment. I would look on the guild roster and often only see two or three names. Now Im in a guild of over 120 70's (even then still small in some terms) and getting a 5-man together for Brewfest Boss or MgT Heroic daily etc is a snap- something I would have to rely on PUG's for and risk getting ninja'd.
Point is, keep the old guildies on the friends list and the new guild on the guild roster obviously. Its easier to have all your old friends "friended" than it is to list all beneficial teammates in the friends list- especially when they can be guildies.
Ærynn Lómëhtar Sep 29th 2008 7:31PM
Unfortunately, it's also about epic drops... or rather who gets them. A lot of guildies can be pretty upset if a non-guildie fill-in gets that epic dagger off Moroes, but will be nonplussed if some guildie got it. A fill-in, in this case, is seen as an opportunistic ninja who uses another guild to be "run through" Kara.
I want to stress again how unfortunate this is, because I personally believe that there is nothing wrong with getting a semi-permanent fill-in for raids. How else can inter-guild friendships form? And I really mean guild friendships, not alliances. Sometimes, guilds can be really xenophobic to members outside the guild.
Jane Gray Sep 29th 2008 7:47PM
I seriously doubt any serious raid guild he joins will demand that he do kara with them. He could continue to organize his karas for his old guild just fine.
I do think you should step down from being officer in the old guild though.
Rob Sep 29th 2008 1:19PM
I think like Scott said everyone has been in this situation (well everyone that raids). I left my social/leveling guild, danced around for a while, got into a progressing kara guild. Then progression stalled, and I left them and the server to join a much faster progressing guild. I miss the old server but I got tired of it and it wasn't for me. Figure out what you want to do in the game. Is it okay for you to spend 20+ hours a week in kara if the tank tanks 5-10 afks before every pull (like my first kara guild)? Is it okay to play until 3am because the tank/RL/GL said so? These are things you need to figure out.
Now I have dejavu all over again, I have to decide to continue hard-core raiding in Wraith on one server, or progress my other guild, different faction and server, as raid officer to start casual raiding.
Its all in what you want to get out of the game. For me, I think i'm done with hardcore raiding. Been there, done that. I'm happier in my social/casual guild where my wife and best friend play actively.
Prauche Sep 29th 2008 1:22PM
Well, he's not going to be able to run Kara w/ his present guild AND the fill-in guild. Raid IDs and all that. Otherwise, yes, that's an option for things such as Gruul, Mags, etc.
Marc Sep 29th 2008 1:33PM
Good advice. This is really not the time to be moving to a raiding guild, with the expansion so close.
SINisterWyvern Sep 29th 2008 4:07PM
I had this same issue many years ago in EQ. I was in the Well of Souls on Tarew Marr and spent most of my time through the levels with them. Fortunately they were very understanding at my need to move on to raiding and my alts remaind with WoS. I eventually hooked up with a guild there that ended up coming to WoW with a great core that was left after things fell apart EQ side.
Kaizen Sep 29th 2008 1:33PM
I've been in this situation in the past and let me tell you, they're never happy about you leaving, even if you tell them you'll even leave 2 70s to help out. You can't crap in someone's cereal bowl then make it better by giving them a new one. Just go with what will make your gaming experience better. Personally, I'm not playing WoW to make lifelong friends, I'm playing it to see all the content I can and to play it.
Rob Sep 29th 2008 1:40PM
This is so true. Once my main left the server I was pretty much dead to the guild, even though I played on my 70 alt more than the main. So...expect less mature guilds to be very upset.
It may have to do with the guild's focus. To me, it's okay since I have a social/leveling guild and people's 70s leave but their alts are still on. But obviously that depends on the guild.
JPN Sep 29th 2008 1:33PM
Also, if you really WANT to put friends first, the content won't necessarily be "obsolete" - just easier when you're 80. You and a small group of friends could whatever-man (5, or whatever) Karazhan etc. once you hit 80. Sure it's not the way it was intended, but there would some kind of challenge, maybe. Then you could pick both.
zappo Sep 29th 2008 1:41PM
I was in a similar position. In a guild with nice people, but were just not very good players. They had other issues as well, and I hated the server. So I decided that I wasn't getting what I wanted out of the game and moved elsewhere. I still harbor some guilt at leaving, and would like to chat with them; but I think there would be too many bad feelings about me leaving. And I think that does sort of create a bad aura, even if you leave on "good" terms.
Column advise is actually pretty good. My new guild just dragged me through Kara last week. I have to admit there was a lot of cool new stuff in there and I had a good time. However keep in perspective that this is ONLY Kara. Once you've been through it, you're pretty much killing the same stuff for a while to gear people. It doesn't sound like the next guild is going to be clearing BT anytime soon so the most you can hope for is to keep running Kara I'm guessing.
And so you run to the new guild, then in like a few weeks Wrath comes out and makes it sort of irrelevant. I don't think it's worth it. For a group of friends that are struggling and that will honestly NEED you, not just to fill a slot but because you are one of their key players; stick it out. They'll certainly appreciate it. It's too late in the game to jump ship now, especially when you're really not going to get that far.
If you come to that crossroads again and have to decide if you want to see more content, make that decision when the stakes are worth it.
WNxSajuukCor Sep 29th 2008 1:43PM
Back when my guild was on Illidan I had the choice of joining one of the top raiding guilds on the server or start over with friends who didn't want to let go of ties. I choose my friends and didn't look back. I see the raiding situation is that, what's the point of downing bosses if you're not having fun with friends in the guild?
Our guild now in Anub'arak has downed Vashj in the past, saw much of Hyjal and a bit of BT. The guild I could've went to on Illidan is one of the top 15 guilds in the world. Do I regret it? Nope. I could never sell out or leave the friends I made in my guild, and I can't wait to continue those relationships far into Wrath and beyond.
darian Sep 29th 2008 5:28PM
As a mirror to your argument, what's the point of not having fun with your guild if you aren't downing bosses?
For a lot of people the problem is that they aren't having fun with their friends. It's a tricky situation due to the bonds that you've built over time, but it happens often.
So what do you do? Some people just stop playing the game, some people try to drum up activity, and some people make a painful exit.
spinn Sep 29th 2008 1:50PM
If it helps any: you are ultimately responsible for your own fun. I'd try working out something with your own guild like leaving for a few months in this pre-expansion phase, because it always throws a wrench in everyone's raiding plans. If they're reasonable they should understand. If not...well what's the alternative, stay where you are for the /g text, but know you're missing out on playing with new things?
I've made those hard decisions--I was officer in a guild and I decided it wasn't for me anymore, and it turned out I was the keystone that was holding the guild together, and it fell apart that day. That kind of sucked and I felt bad about it, but I had to think about what I wanted to do, rather than staying in the guild for the guild's sake and being unhappy. It's like staying married for the kids.
Mark Sep 29th 2008 2:03PM
I and a handful of others in my guild outgear the majority of our guildies. Like anyone else, I sometimes tire from running the same content over and over, seeing no progression my own gear. But every upgrade for a fellow guildie makes me stronger, too. That's important to remember.
When you love your guild as I love mine, you can find quite a bit of enjoyment playing the part of fixer in the guild: your over-geared presence can mitigate many shortcomings in casual guild.
Many servers have raiding alliances, formed by smaller guilds. An alliance can be a great way to scratch that itch. One should of course avoid raiding the same raid as the guild's progression, because of raid ID's, but that doesn't have to stop one from joining other raids of greater difficulty.
Just as others have said, either commit to your own guild fully or make a clean, dignified break from it. Waffling between the two serves no one, least of all the one making waffles.
Tseran Sep 29th 2008 2:31PM
As a reluctant GL of my group of nuts (Yay Piscus Inferno on Kirin Tor!) I had to make a few similar decisions. In all honesty, I could probably find myself a spot in a larger raiding guild if I really wanted to. But here is what we did to get the ball rolling on raiding with a smaller, more casual guild.
First, find yourself another (maybe two other) small casual guilds with similar attitudes to yours. I am sure among them you can find 10 or so folks who want to try out raiding. Form an alliance with them and possibly set up a GEM channel or something similar. Maybe even a website to sign up for raids. Remember to try and keep things simple. You will find with a lot of casual folks, you can get away with pretty loose loot rules (ours are kind of an extension of need over greed, no DKP or anything complex) and everyone will eventually get upgrades...or in our case, everyone will get lots of shards! ;)
Beli Sep 29th 2008 2:34PM
I think with 6 weeks until the expansion it's a rather interesting time. The only way you're going to be able to "have your cake and eat it too" is to be completely open an honest with your guild members. If you guys are really that good of friends, it shouldn't matter all that much.
Up until recently, my guild had most of Kara on farm for two groups, and was working through ZA. With declining interest, we've dropped back to a simple "run what you want when you want" type of organization. Yes, for those who are over geared it sucks (me included in that), but it helps some of the lower geared players and it lets us play with people we normally didn't get to play with.
All that being said, we had a few members, including an officer, switch their mains to another guild to see some more advanced content. Their alts are still with us, we still run things with them on a regular basis (being brewfest and 5-mans right now). When the expansion hits, they're planning on coming back to us, no hard feelings.
Nick S Sep 29th 2008 2:36PM
This happened to me more or less exactly a while ago, all the way down to being accused of "using the guild" (ironic, since I had geared up via the badge system, like you seem to have done.)
Basically, you have a decision to make - progress with a different group, or stagnate with the group you have? The decision is between people and progression, basically. If they're just starting Karazhan now, I can guarantee you with no reservation that they will never, ever progress quickly. If that's okay with you, stay!
If not, well... welcome to the Looking for Guild channel.