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The latest patch 5.4 newsOfficers' Quarters: Friends or content
by Scott Andrews 
Sep 29th 2008 at 1:00PM
Every Monday Scott Andrews contributes Officers' Quarters, a column about the ins and outs of guild leadership.It's the constant dilemma of the casual guild member. You love the people in the guild, but you know you're going to miss all or most of the raiding experience. It's a particularly poignant decision when you're an officer in a casual guild. That's what one reader is facing this week.
Hi, Scott.
I have been in a wonderful casual guild for almost a year now. And have been promoted to an officer. I love all of officers/people in my guild and generally have a good time with them and try to organize casual events and things to do. We have been attempting Kara recently, but I don't think we will progress past the 2nd boss before Wrath comes out; however, we are not a raiding guild by any means and I can't really stress that enough.
Over the last few months I have started to out-gear a lot of people in the guild and have been considering moving just my 70 to a guild that only raids on weekends so I have a chance to explore some new content before it becomes obsolete. Recently I filled a gap in a Kara guild and after the run was asked to join. This guild would only really need me for weekend Kara runs and maybe Mags.
Is it fair for one of my alts (which I am trying to level for Wrath) to take over my officer position in my guild and only use my current 70 for raiding in the new guild, and to help out when needed?
My current GM seemed a little upset about the notion making it sound like I'm abandoning the guild and using them to gear up and leave (although I geared mostly from pugs) because they just started Kara (I was the one organizing it). However, I have every intention of helping out the guild with Kara anyway I can even though my only 70 is not in that guild anymore.
I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place at the moment. I don't know if what I'm asking from the other guild leaders sounds reasonable or if I'm just being silly. I don't want to press to many buttons as I have every intention of leveling with this guild when the expansion comes out.
Thanks for your time,
[Anonymous]
You're not the only one who's had to make this decision. It's a frequent issue that many, many Warcraft players have faced over the years. After all, most players start in casual guilds.
When you don't know what you're missing, it's easy to sit back and say, "I love my guildmates and I'm not going anywhere." But now you've had a taste of what successful raiding is like. You've seen something of what WoW's raids have to offer, and you want to see more.
I think you did the right thing by speaking to your guild leader before you made the decision. While I don't blame your guild leader for being upset, he or she should still appreciate your honesty and openness.
You have to look at the situation from your GL's point of view, though. You are probably one of the guild's better players, and certainly one of the more motivated officers if you're putting the raids together. Now, while you guys have just gotten your Kara runs off the ground, the man behind it is talking about leaving.
I know your intentions are good, but there really isn't much you can do to help out with Kara runs if your raid ID belongs to another guild. And offering your non-70 alt as an officer in your guild is a bit of an insult.
The bottom line is this: You need to decide what you value more, your guild or your gaming experience. Right now, with only six weeks till Wrath, I'd stay stick it out till 80. Try to get people motivated to succeed in Kara. There's no reason you guys can't beat Moroes and a number of other bosses in the next few weeks.
In the meantime, you could possibly attend the raids that the other guild runs that your guild doesn't run, like Magtheridon.
Eventually, however, you're going to face this decision again. There's no achievement for sticking with a guild even though you can't even get a five-player dungeon going.
But before you get there, if you like your guild as much as you say, why not try to get ten people to commit to casual raiding in Wrath? Ten people is a lot more manageable than 25, and that's all it takes to see all the content the expansion has to offer (eventually).
Use some early victories in Kara now to build momentum for hitting Naxx at 80. You may not be the only one who wants more raiding once you get a taste for it!
/salute
Send Scott your guild-related questions, conundrums, ideas, and suggestions at scott.andrews@weblogsinc.com. You may find your question the subject of next week's Officers' Quarters! For more WoW Insider gameplay columns, click here.Filed under: Officers' Quarters (Guild Leadership)
Reader Comments (Page 2 of 3)
Narai Sep 29th 2008 2:37PM
Wrath is just way too close to consider jumping ship to a more progressed guild. To me, I realized that the guild needed me more (and had recently made me an officer). We discovered that a good number of people would be coming out of hibernation for Wrath, and that we could make a good bit of progress once we all hit 80, provided we all stuck together.
When I looked at it, that was the better calculated risk to take. The other raiding guild that I could have joined would have given me a decent shot at loot (no dkp system)...but I chose my friends. We decided we can go smack Illidan and KJ around at 80.
In the end, it's about how you want to spend your 15 bucks a month. I'll just goof off on alts until then and do the occasional Kara/ZA. (We were on the cusp of t5 content and then were short healers. Otherwise we probably would have been in Hyjal before Wrath hit. We are doing ok now though.)
Ktok Sep 29th 2008 2:43PM
In EQ1, EQ2, and here in WoW, I've always had offers from top end raid guilds to join them. However, I never would, because I lead a group of some of the best people I've ever had the pleasure to game with. I've lead them for five years. This guild is my baby, and the members are my brothers and sisters.
Would I like to see Illidan? Yes. Do I have the skill needed to do the fight? You bet your life I do... Would I ever betray their trust and jump ship for gear I'll be replacing with quest blues half way to 80 in Wrath? Never. You couldn't pay me enough in real world dollars to make me.
Oh, sure, I have multiple well geared 70s I could do it with, but here's the thing... it's never "just one 70". I've seen it happen over and over again. You move one 70 to a raid guild, and you're never seen again on any of your alts. You think they'll only need you for the weekends, or that you'll make time to be with your friends back in the old guild, but it just doesn't happen that way.
As a wise friend and officer of mine said once of someone in this situation "one can not serve two masters". Stay with your casual guild, or leave for a raid guild. It's not fair to try and please both.
Or... wait until Wrath. My guild can down every boss in Kara at will and we're starting in on ZA, even though I would call us casual. With every raid in Wrath coming in 10-man flavor, you won't have to sacrifice your friends to see raid content. The only difference between 10-man and 25-man raids is complexity in managing 15 extra people, and slightly better gear.
Your guild not being able to get past Moroes *does* kind of make it sound like even 10-man raiding in Wrath won't happen though... just something else to consider I guess.
Vlatch Sep 29th 2008 2:55PM
This is a constant struggle that I encounter as a guild leader of a casual guild. We clear Kara in one night some weeks, clear it every week for certain, we're closing in on Malacrass in ZA - and most have gotten great gear from Gruul or Mag pugs (even some TK and SSC pugs).
Many of our players move from our guild to more progressed guilds/more serious raiding guilds. Some leave an alt for awhile, some even come back to the guild - but most leave us behind for greener pastures.
The funny thing is about these members that leave our company - they always seem to find a space for us in their SSC/TK pugs, or their full ZA clears. They run heroics with our guild members on the weekends, and help our lower-level members with the occasional quest. That isn't to say our guild members don't, but we have fostered a sense of family that expands beyond the guild tag.
I think something that the OP should take to hear (and more to the case the OP's current GM) is that you foster friendships that will last much longer than most guilds or guild tags....maybe even longer than WoW itself. I don't harbor ill-will towards anyone that leaves my current employer for a better job, even if I don't think the job they're leaving for is necessarily better. I keep those friends, and WoW should be no different.
Adam Cheeseman Sep 29th 2008 3:07PM
Same situation almost (not 70 yet but going to be in 3 levels and some gearing up later) and everyone else is 30-50. But the crux is you just became Guild Leader (the other guild leader just went on personal hiatus (aka. break) ).
And there isn't anyone in the guild that devotes enough to really take up the mantle of GL.
Do you pass it on and forget about the casual guild that you have been chatting (and professioning with since lv 15) and start hunting for a Guild that raids and does various other end-game content.
Or do i stick around and pug-it-up till the other GL comes back before i move on?
Balius Sep 29th 2008 3:20PM
This close to the release of Wrath is a little late to be worried about progression in BC, especially when that goal is only to see one or two instances; you can come back and see them later, with the guild you like.
What this person has is a guild with at least 10 members willing to try to raid together; stick with it. Don't worry about the drops, or how your group is gearing up, though. Focus on leadership and attitude, on how to work together as a small raiding party. Then, when Wrath comes out, you'll have a group of players you like who are experienced at working together. You'll have all the raid instances (Wrath and otherwise) at your disposal, and a group you obviously like and feel dedication to.
If you're worried about progression inside Kara, gearing up for Kara can be done outside of raiding. Run some heroics, get some premade battleground groups up and running, you'll quickly find yourself outgearing some of the Kara drops!
There's no reason to abandon your guild right now, unless you're just not enjoying it.
RetPallyJil Sep 29th 2008 3:39PM
Ok, make "about one year" into "over three years", and change "officer" into "guild leader", and you have my dilemma.
Joey Sep 29th 2008 4:05PM
As a longtime GM, I've been on the other end of this quite often. We're a laid back social guild that does casual raiding. Because of this we see a lot of people who come to the guild, build strong relationships and then leave for content. Most of these people will keep alts in our guild and hang out on our vent even while playing their out-of-guild toon. This seems to be ideal for the player because they get to have the strong social aspects of our guild while experiencing content through the other guild.
All that said, while this play style benefits the player it does hurt the guild. We end up being more of a leveling ground where we help players level from 1-70, get them started with raiding and then send them on their way to better things.
I don't fault players for doing it, after all it's just a game, but I can't help but feel that if even a portion of these players would hang around and help us raid we would also be taking part in the same content. Even still, I realize not everyone has the time or effort to dedicate to such things so you have to make the choice that's best for you.
deuce Sep 30th 2008 7:21PM
Wow there are a lot of long responses to this one. All different sides I might add.
So I would say I was in this position in "vanilla WoW" and I left my guild (that I had been in since day one of release) for another guild that was rapidly progressing through Molten Core and soon to move on to Blackwing Lair. Unfortunately the first couple of bosses was where they stopped progressing in BWL. So I transferred servers to get into a guild that was rapidly progressing through the end of BWL and moving into Ahn'Quiraj(SP?). I raided with them till the day Burning Crusade came out. And it was fun. I love raiding. However I definitely missed the friends I had left behind in my original guild. And now with 10-mans becoming a way to still see content while not getting screwed on the number of hours required to get through said content I have come back to my original server and original guild. And because of that I love logging onto WoW and playing again.
So all that said and done. I would encourage you to stick it out. Is six weeks really worth joining another guild? Personally I think not. But of course the decision is yours and I think someone else said it best; ask yourself what you want to do. How do YOU want to play. Then go from there. Just make sure if you do choose to leave your friendly guild that you remain friends and leave with a bridge still intact :) .
Heike Sep 29th 2008 4:23PM
The "you can go back and see the raids when you're 70" are completely ignoring the fact that for some people, the challenge is part of the fun. There's a reason why I never take my level 70 through Uldaman, even though it's not an instance I did while leveling. I want to experience the content, not see the content.
Second, I disagree with the OP that offering to make a non-70 alt an officer is an insult. It completely depends on the role of the officer in the guild. In a non-raiding guild (this is a casual, non-raiding guild that hasn't even killed the second boss in Kara) - levels do not and should not matter in this type of guild. Officers in a casual guild like this can provide advice, mediate in conflicts, and perform any of their regular functions without being 70. The ONLY benefit to being 70 is having the experience of playing through certain types of content and being able to help others - and it doesn't matter which character it's on. I have my alts in an alt-guild and my main in a raiding guild. When one of our newbies asks me something, my answer doesn't change based on what I'm playing!
Also, I think that pre-Wrath is probably a great time to consider switching guilds if you want to go harder-core and see more content. First, you'll see whatever you see until the expansion. But, even more importantly, it provides you some real time to get to know your new guildies before and during the leveling process in Wrath, setting you up well to begin raiding properly once you're 80. Or, alternatively, it lets you discover they're not the people for you, letting you know to level up with your old friends.
Phoulmouth Sep 29th 2008 5:08PM
Sounds to me like your carrying them on your back. If there to lazy to even organize a Kara run let alone progress through it before WotLK then yeah..... you should leave.
As far as hurting people feelings just explain yourself, make a post on your guild forums telling them all why. If they get pissed and don't talk to you anymore apparently they aren't your friends.
As far as the choice between progression or friends I think its worded wrong. You play this game to play it how you want to play it. Either you wanna use it as a chat window or you wanna play the game. By playing the game you would obviously want to see the content.
I started playing WoW cause I had a buddy playing. I hit 60 and the guild i was in couldn't even scrub up a 5 man let alone a 20 or 40 man. Sitting there begging to get a 5 man is just a waste of my monthly payment and not interesting. I hopped ship to a guild actively progressing into ZG and never looked back. If not for that I would have quit this game a long time ago.
Hoku Sep 29th 2008 5:33PM
As the Guild Leader for Silent Redemption on Feathermoon, our Raid Leader Luklin and I have been faced with this dilemma in the past. We are a raiding guild currently working on T6 content. We have only Kael left to complete in T5 (woot SR!! - great job guys!). We have seen some of our top end players (back when we were finishing T4 learning T5) make that very hard decision to leave the guild to see end content. It's always tough to see one of your best and dedicated players with a different guild tag, but for SR, we couldn't be happier for them. It felt good to see one of our guys that started with us join The Brethren and then Catalyst. As we all know (for those of us on Feathermoon), they were/are some of the top Alliance guilds on our server and not very easy to get into. Anyway, bottom line, we tell our raiders to do only what makes them happy. If they feel its time for them to move on, we support their decisions wholeheartedly and are always in touch with them since SR has an alliance channel. If your guild is as understanding and care for your friendship as much as you seemingly do for them, I would hope they would support you in your decision to progress. For my members, I would not want to hinder any of their desires to move at a pace suitable for them - being it going to a more aggressive raiding guild (raiding 4+ days a week) or slowing down and enjoying the environment and players. Trying to hold on to members when they clearly are looking for more of what the game has to offer, will only create unhappy and frustrated members which may lead to some unhappier endings. For me and our Guild and Raid Officers, changing your guild tag doesn't mean our friendship ends.
With Wrath coming around the corner (which we all are hoping won't be postponed), you will eventually need to make a decision if you want to be a PVE player w/some raiding or a Raider. If your current guild is casual and raid only when they can get a group of people interested, it would be a good indication you probably wont be raiding as much in Wrath. It takes A LOT of time, patience, dedication, personal commitment, and CONSISTENCY (I cannot stress the consistent part enough) to be in a raiding guild. Instead of 9 other players looking for you to be in attendance for every raid, fully prepared, on-time, and ready to go, you will have 24 (if you continue raiding in T5 and T6) depending on you. If you plan on leaving your casual guild to join a raiding guild, be sure you understand what you will be getting yourself into - it's not all happy go lucky and you may find yourself hoping your old guild will take you back. If you enjoy the leisure pace and relaxed atmosphere of being in a casual guild, then you are better off staying, developing an instance base, and moving with the guild to see content. Who knows, your guild may just one day find a 10 player base that will start moving together. But of course, that is my outlook and other GL's in raiding guilds may or may not feel the same. Going from a casual guild to a raiding guild can be quite a culture shock.
I only hope for you that your current guild would support your decision no matter what you decide and at the same time understand what type of casual environment you will be leaving behind (if you choose to do so). Hopefully this will give you some insight into what you are going to be faced with if you are looking for progression. Good luck to you and happy questing, grinding, raiding, or rp'ing!!
-Hoku
Mikalan Sep 29th 2008 5:01PM
Changing guilds is always a risk. There are a lot of bad guilds out there, but also some really good ones as well.
Recently I switched servers to play on a raiding guild since my friends had decided raiding wasn't for them and they were going to reroll as Horde on another server. Since I wasn't looking to level to 70 again, it was a fairly easy decision for me. I put an ad up in the guild recruitment forum of the WoW website and found a good guild that fit well what I was looking for in a raiding guild.
I've made a number of new friends in my current raiding guild, but I do miss not being able to spend lots of time with my old friends.
But in all honesty, if you're in a guild that's having trouble taking down Moroes, then it's very hard to see this guild doing well in WotLK. On my server at least there are at least 2 or 3 Kara PUGs going out just for badges (in other words everyone in the raid has already cleared Kara a number of times). So if you're joining a guild thinking that it's a competent raiding guild just because it has cleared Kara, then you're sorely mistaken.
Another thing to consider is that you may not enjoy "serious" raiding as much as you think. There is a huge difference between Kara and SSC, and then between SSC and SWP. A number of people in my former guild found that while they had lots of fun doing Kara, that was all the raiding they were looking for in BC.
I remember reading once in Thottbot about the Gruul fight. At the time I was having trouble clearing Shadow Labs and was just astounded by the statement "Yeah my guild did really good on High King Mulagar last week. It only took us 16 WIPES to take him down!" Now having downed Illidan for the first time after 32 wipes I know exactly what they meant.
Milktub Sep 29th 2008 5:07PM
Fun decisions, right? I've been a member of the same guild for going on a year, and an officer for the past seven months.
Thanks to badge gear, I could do well as a tank in late t5 content, and have been approached by raiding guilds to see if I'd like to join their team. But because I like the people I'm with now, I'm content to farm Karazhan ... as a bonus, when I'm not needed as tank, I know I have a guaranteed spot for my neglected rogue or brand new 70 warlock.
[Anonymous] Sep 29th 2008 5:39PM
Well Thanks for your help - After a few weeks things kind of hit the fan after closing open recruitment. My old guild is still around but its a shadow of its old self.
As for raiding I Wont make it past 10 mans before Wrath comes out and I will probably just stick to 10 mans afterwords. Maybe someday my old guild will have enough people to get 10 mans going but not in the near future.
As for switching I do feel some guilt but am having a good time with my new guild.
So far I have been trying to hang out on my alt that is still in the guild and have used my main on a few occasions to help run instances with my old guild
Alienne Sep 29th 2008 5:43PM
I've just had a similar problem - I joined a guild this June with my stated intention being to raid T5, and they were really friendly and pretty fun. However, since I joined they only downed Solarian twice and VR once, and our raid nights consisted of wiping constantly on Solarian or Akil'zon. As I was one of their few healers with higher attendance and better gear - none of which, by the way, had been gained with them - most Karazhan runs that I didn't sign up for were cancelled.
I received an invitation to trial with a guild that had downed Vashj and was 3/4 on TK and had started BT and MH. After a week or so of indecision, during which I informed my class leader and GM (both friends by now) of my trial invitation, I accepted the trial, and happily posted on the forum of my old guild that I would be keeping my alts (one of whom is raid standard) in guild, and try to be available to help with raids/heroics/crafting if wanted. The prompt response from the GM was that if I wasn't going to stay in the guild to help with progression (bear in mind we had been stuck on VR and Solarian for five months now), he didn't want me anywhere near the guild so that I could take advantage of their Karazhan runs.
So yeah... it depends what kind of people you're dealing with, but be aware that people who are perfectly friendly when you're helping them may very well ditch you as soon as you're no longer useful.
Kanuris Oct 1st 2008 2:20AM
Ouch, that sounds like one stuck up guild leader, i know people who've done what you did where the guild hasn't been stuck for so long and where the player has just up and left. You were very respectful and the GL just acts like a child.
Hope the guild you moved to was better.
Eisengel Sep 29th 2008 5:46PM
I don't see a problem with going in either direction...
You could transfer your 70 to the other guild and run your alt as you officer character, or ask to be a 'permanent fill-in' in the other guild. Since raiding wasn't happening often in your current guild, it seems your 70 wouldn't be sorely missed, and if your current guild's runs happen when your raid guild's runs don't, there should be 0 overlap, allowing you to use your 70 in both.
The only problem is if the raiding guild won't give you permanent spot if you aren't a guildie, which is fair. If your GL objects to this, you can say you're gathering experience raiding (not just raiding kara) that you can bring to Wrath, plus you aren't using your current guild. If anyone is getting used, you're using the raiding guild on the weekends. Tell you GL to chill, you like your guild and want to stay in it, but you want to bump your 70 up a bit on weekends. :^)
Elyx Sep 29th 2008 5:51PM
Ya, with wrath on the horizon, its a totally different ballpark then it was 6 months ago. even if you had a good opprotunity, I would stay with the friends (as i did when i had to make the choice)
I've been in casual guilds and casual raiding guilds (they do exist lol), in leadership positions in both (officer in casual, Raid leader in casual raid). Coming from both side sof the fence i will say this...we've had peeps leave the guild for progression guilds and come back multiple times. progression focused raiding guilds are a very different world, and you need to prep for that. almost all but 1 or 2 that left our guild came back, stating that outside of raids, the guild was boring. very business like, very little interaction, yada yada.
Not that all progression raiding guilds are like that (and im sure a few folks will come on and prove that ), but you have to remember what you sacrificing to gain that. all the folks that we wer friends with that left we gave an open door policy. They came back :)
Now we were actually raiding, so it wasn't like they were going from 0 to 100 and back to 0. but we started out exactly where your guild is now. we struggled through kara, and t4 and are into t5 content. Our biggest limitation is getting 25 peeps online who have the gear/skill to progress thru 25 man t5. ZA is on farm with our better toons. So stick it out. Often the grass isn't as green on the other side as you would think :D
However, there are those peeps who are playing for one sole reason...to progress. The officers in my current guild have learned how to weed those players out. not because their bad, but becase our guild really doesn't fit their goals, and to a certain degree there is somethinng to be said for helping others who drop you when they want to move up. I usually dont bother with them...they can go apply for a progression guild and work their way up the ladder. but Many of my firends in our guild have gone out to try out progresion content, and weve welcomed them back :) there's only 2 that i know of that we haven't, they probably preferred the environment of a progression guild.
David Whyld Sep 29th 2008 6:11PM
It's nice seeing threads like this and realising that, while it might seem like it at the time, you're not the only one who has these kind of problems. I started in a casual guild, joined about level 30, levelled up with them, did group quests and we talked a lot about end game raiding once we hit max level. Only of course it was a small, casual guild and we were usually lucky to have enough people of the appropriate level on at the same time to do dungeons, let alone raids. We even set a date for Karazhan, but at the time only 3 of us were attuned and only 5 of us of high enough level were on. No go Kara.
Before long, some of the ones who really wanted to raid (I wasn't one of them) decided the guild just wasn't going to be ready for Kara and would certainly never be ready for the 25 man raids... and off they went. I stayed because I wasn't too fussed about the whole raiding scene but as time went by more and more people left until what used to be a nice, friendly guild with lots of chat going on ended up pretty much dead. What finally prompted me to leave was the realisation that not one of the people I had levelled up with was still in the guild and that apart from a few alts (that were hardly ever played) the only people who still logged on regularly were people I didn't know.
There's always the feeling of... I don't... betrayal (?) when guildies leave for other guilds. No matter how nicely they phrase it, and no matter how nice they are themselves, you're always left with the feeling that they're leaving because the guild you're in is crap and other guilds are better. But at the end of the day, there's not much point in sticking with a guild that isn't going anywhere.
Michael Sep 29th 2008 8:40PM
What's the best part of being a fill-in for a Kara guild run? Out DPS'ing the entire raid in blue PvP/rep gear.